125 réponses à ce sujet

[apocalypse_owl]

Most bosses in MEMP were headshots capable. Not sure where you got that info

 

This is correct, though Geth Primes got their headshot multiplier nerfed. 

[N7 Tigger]

 

this is my suggestion to implement at least a little more skill-requirement :

 

 

every squishy character needs a dodge or parry ability "by default"

(OR give us 2 more ability slots !)

 

And make it worth-while to evade an attack - no matter the promotion level.

 

The squishy characters need speed (Isabella was a step into the right direction).

It was just ridiculous that the legionnaire was as fast (slow) as a rogue.

 

 

One big problem is those promotions in DAI.

Because in ME3 you could have the greatest weapons but your base-character always

stays the same and can theoretically be grilled in split seconds.

in ME3 everything is "naturally" capped somehow.  Thus, the most important thing that distinguishes

the players is their skill level. 

 

 

Yeah, I've been saying since day one that every character needs a dodge by default.

 

Increase base movement speed (by a lot) and replace the sprint button with Evade/Combat Roll/Fade Step. Just leave their upgrade in place of the ability in the skill tree.

[N7 Tigger]

Second aiming wasn't that important in me3mp as ppl think. Many kits were made around abilities. Headshots in most cases was just for show off, boss units and those with high enough hp to make those headshot matter can't be even headshoted.
 

 

I can't even express just how wrong this is. Every enemy had a weak spot where they took critical damage. It just wasn't always their head (Scion shoulder, for example, or exposing a Praetorian stomach). And it was extremely important to take advantage of it on the higher difficulties.

 

LOL I'd nearly forgotten about this. So much ranting about 'aiming' in ME3 shooters being the epitome of skill yet, ME3 was all about auto-aim and for consoles 30 fps difficulty (enemy accuracy) scaled to fps. i.e. taking half the damage 60 fps players would (or less).

 

There were plenty of other factors for skill. They had nothing to do with aiming and everything to do with situational awareness and knowing the kit / appriorate resopnses to changing conditions, the same elements in DAMp.

 

Auto aim made the game harder. Pretty much every console BSNer asked for the option to turn it off at some point. Entire threads were dedicated to it. PC gamers will never know the joy of repeatedly trying to line up a Banshee with a Javelin only for the auto aim to lock on to a Swarmer ten feet in front of you.

 

ME3 had no auto aim on PC. I also find it hilarious that you say mass effect 3 took no skill but you still modified your game files to cheat to win at it. 

 

[BansheeOwnage]

I can't even express just how wrong this is. Every enemy had a weak spot where they took critical damage. It just wasn't always their head (Scion shoulder, for example, or exposing a Praetorian stomach). And it was extremely important to take advantage of it on the higher difficulties.

Hey, technically that's a headshot. The Praetorian has a load of husk heads in there

[yarpenthemad21]

Most bosses in MEMP were headshots capable. Not sure where you got that info

At the end yes. At start nope. Headshot bonus varied from not working to working to being small and huge. Either way bosses had too high hp pool to be killed in 1 hit. In that cases dps is the king, not some very slow sniper rifles.

As for the auto aim. Geth shotgun, one of the most popular weapons, exploited all the time on cloak kits was an autoaim weapon. Just aim at generic direction of enemy and shoot. So much skill.


Dodge move added for everyone? For current setup it would be just too easy for many kits, so how to balance it. Changing enemies to hit harder isn't a way to create some challenge. Most of the time it creates cheap difficulty. Nobody likes 1 shot kills, being dead because of little mistake/lag.

[N7 Tigger]

As for the auto aim. Geth shotgun, one of the most popular weapons, exploited all the time on cloak kits was an autoaim weapon. Just aim at generic direction of enemy and shoot. So much skill.
 

 

That was a mechanic of the weapon itself. Charged shots gained tracking and had reduced spread. But the reticule had to be on target. If the target was moving the shot tracked and hit the target.

[Da_Noobinator]

I don't know why people expect the majority of others to be good at video games. Most people just pick up a game every now and then and don't invest a ton of time into it. If someone doesn't get the skill trees and just fills up every skill they have access to with any available point, sure it'll make a crappy build, but I'm sure they don't care. The lot of you that are complaining about how people suck are like the guy on the company softball team that is screaming at the receptionist for striking out when everyone else is there to just have fun. People don't want to play with you because you take a GAME way too seriously.

THANK YOU. THIS. All of it.

 

I have all of 0 Constitution, 1 Cunning, and a whopping 4 Willpower. My best staff is Fury of the Veil, my best bow is some level 18 unique with 2% chance to cast Shield Bash for some bizarre reason, and I don't even remember what my best 2h is called, but it's a great big axe that looks too large for even the Katari to carry, and has about 260dps. I have one 5% heal on kill ring, and one 10% critical chance ring.

 

I don't promote often because I enjoy playing as a level 20 more than I enjoy leveling up a character. I don't play often enough to make leveling up a character 20 times worth a 10% increase in crit chance. That sounds absolutely ludicrous to me (although if that's what you enjoy, good for you).

 

And getting back to the point of the OP, when I first started, my mates and I wiped on Routine. Now we can get through Perilous with relative ease (and most of my mates are similar regarding promotions and gear). But if someone fails to take note of the environment, or doesn't react fast enough to a threat, or uses their abilities with poor timing, they can go down, and this can result in a wipe. Take that as you will.

 

And you know what? Wipe or not, we still have fun. Frankly, I don't care whether there's true "skill" or not. All I care about is that the game is fun escapism, which is what a game is meant to be.

 

If you want "skill", add a toggle in the lobby settings for friendly fire, plus if you hit an enemy with barrier or any buff, they get buffed too. At least that way you'll actually have to aim your bloody Immolate, instead of engulfing your "teammates" in an explosion of fire without them so much as noticing. Pet peeve of mine.

[Cryos_Feron]

As for the auto aim. Geth shotgun, one of the most popular weapons, exploited all the time on cloak kits was an autoaim weapon. Just aim at generic direction of enemy and shoot. So much skill.
.

please accept the fact that it was YOUR decision to use your skill.

[BansheeOwnage]

At the end yes. At start nope. Headshot bonus varied from not working to working to being small and huge.

No. Bosses had headshot (or vulnerability) multipliers at launch. Later, they were removed. Later still, they were reinstated, perhaps with decreased multipliers, but reinstated all the same.

[Cryos_Feron]

it doesn't matter WHEN we got headshots on bosses. 

 

We have them now, do we?

 

"yarpenthemad21" said that headshots were overrated,

while I am using them all the time.

 

On PC without auto aim.

 

Like someone said:  "Abusing the weak spots is a central aspect of the game"

 

And if a grandpa like me can do this (35 years),

there is got to be more people ;-)

[Alan Drifter13]

THANK YOU. THIS. All of it.

 

I have all of 0 Constitution, 1 Cunning, and a whopping 4 Willpower. My best staff is Fury of the Veil, my best bow is some level 18 unique with 2% chance to cast Shield Bash for some bizarre reason, and I don't even remember what my best 2h is called, but it's a great big axe that looks too large for even the Katari to carry, and has about 260dps. I have one 5% heal on kill ring, and one 10% critical chance ring.

 

I don't promote often because I enjoy playing as a level 20 more than I enjoy leveling up a character. I don't play often enough to make leveling up a character 20 times worth a 10% increase in crit chance. That sounds absolutely ludicrous to me (although if that's what you enjoy, good for you).

 

And getting back to the point of the OP, when I first started, my mates and I wiped on Routine. Now we can get through Perilous with relative ease (and most of my mates are similar regarding promotions and gear). But if someone fails to take note of the environment, or doesn't react fast enough to a threat, or uses their abilities with poor timing, they can go down, and this can result in a wipe. Take that as you will.

 

And you know what? Wipe or not, we still have fun. Frankly, I don't care whether there's true "skill" or not. All I care about is that the game is fun escapism, which is what a game is meant to be.

 

If you want "skill", add a toggle in the lobby settings for friendly fire, plus if you hit an enemy with barrier or any buff, they get buffed too. At least that way you'll actually have to aim your bloody Immolate, instead of engulfing your "teammates" in an explosion of fire without them so much as noticing. Pet peeve of mine.

 

Just to clarify, I really wasn't trying to make an evaluation on whether this is good or bad for the game itself (though I doubt I'll play DAMP as much as I played MEMP), I just saw the video and realized it described what happens in this game perfectly, so I thought it made sense to share it here.

 

Take your example: Fury of the veil is not a bad staff, and 5% heal on kill is still much better than no hok at all in this game. In my case, this week I got the bow of the dragon, and playing the hunter suddenly became WAY easier. 

 

Take a look at this forum, the so called "skill" that most players mentioned is limited to learning the timing of the animations (it took me about 2 games using shield wall to learn this), taking cover (soft cover in this game is even easier than it was in MEMP) or timing the use of skills (it doesn't take much to learn that you should throw the elemental mines in the choke points, time your barrier to make it more effective, etc.). None of this "skills" take much to be learnt. And now that the "bad" skills have been buffed and the "good" ones nerfed, it isn't even so important to have a good build anymore. I think some people are being completely fooled into thinking we get better when actually it's the game that gets easier, just as the video explains.

 

That being said, I totally agree with you, as long as it works as good and fun escapism, we'll keep playing. Actually, accepting that there isn't really much skill involved helps to not take it too seriously 

[yarpenthemad21]

it doesn't matter WHEN we got headshots on bosses. 
 
We have them now, do we?
 
"yarpenthemad21" said that headshots were overrated,
while I am using them all the time.
 
On PC without auto aim.
 
Like someone said:  "Abusing the weak spots is a central aspect of the game"
 
And if a grandpa like me can do this (35 years),
there is got to be more people ;-)

Skill involved in dealing headshots in ME3MP isn't even on the same planet as this needed to make constant headshot in true FPS game like battlefield.
PvE enemies move most of the time slow, can be easily predicted and map is very small (so distance is short). If you can deal headshot with claymore across the map just because you use specific kit it's not that hard really.
Also "headshots" was a part of typical gameplay. Claymore user also aimed for head. What really mattered was experience and awareness. I've played with many players, some of them with really godly aiming skills but their lack knowledge about mechanic, weapons and enemies and I still could outperform them in any situation.
For me skilled player is a sum of everything which makes him a good player. Knowledge, experience, knowledge about enemies, weapons, kits and map, also battle awareness, reflex and if there is aiming in game aiming.
You can't be skilled sniper in real world if you don't know **** about weapons, winds, velocity, ammunition but still you can aim good. Lack of knowledge would lead to situation in where maybe not that talented sniper will be better.

[Cryos_Feron]

Skill involved in dealing headshots in ME3MP isn't even on the same planet as this needed to make constant headshot in true FPS game like battlefield.
PvE enemies move most of the time slow, can be easily predicted and map is very small (so distance is short). If you can deal headshot with claymore across the map just because you use specific kit it's not that hard really.
Also "headshots" was a part of typical gameplay. Claymore user also aimed for head. What really mattered was experience and awareness. I've played with many players, some of them with really godly aiming skills but their lack knowledge about mechanic, weapons and enemies and I still could outperform them in any situation.
For me skilled player is a sum of everything which makes him a good player. Knowledge, experience, knowledge about enemies, weapons, kits and map, also battle awareness, reflex and if there is aiming in game aiming.
You can't be skilled sniper in real world if you don't know **** about weapons, winds, velocity, ammunition but still you can aim good. Lack of knowledge would lead to situation in where maybe not that talented sniper will be better.

I think now you are getting carried away a bit.

bottom line is:
aiming at weak spots is one example of skill used.
evading, parrying, situational awareness, making use of builds are others.
at least 3/5 of them aren't much promoted in DAI.

nevertheless is the game fun!
but consequently doesn't have the long-term potential, nor learning curve of ME3.

Maybe you can agree to that.

[yarpenthemad21]

I think now you are getting carried away a bit.

bottom line is:
aiming at weak spots is one example of skill used.
evading, parrying, situational awareness, making use of builds are others.
at least 3/5 of them aren't much promoted in DAI.

nevertheless is the game fun!
but consequently doesn't have the long-term potential, nor learning curve of ME3.

Maybe you can agree to that.

Please give me your definition of skill with examples in which game he have skill and in which we don't

[Cryos_Feron]

seriously?

 

But I thought you played both games ?

 

I am at work and therefore just give a few quick key words.

 

Situational awareness:

Tube levels ! The utmost possible strategy would be to sometimes use treasure rooms and split up

(to come from 2 sides) But I think there is no need for this.

Another thing is: DON'T leave the group for a Rambo-Action and open Treasure rooms alone.

But that's it.

Ferelden Castle:

Waiting for enemies to climb down a ladder and then push a button ?

Or grouping in wave 4 in that certain room on the right (you know which one) and keep barrier spammed.... great.

It is literally just waiting and pushing 2 buttons when the cooldown is over.

 

 

Parrying / Evading:

The game punishes you for taking these abilties (in case they are available...)

because you only have 4 precious slots.

And they don't work as one might hope for. For example Parry + AOE.

Evade only does its job if you turn to the right direction BEFORE

which costs that precios split second.

 

 

Speed:

The new characters bring some (small) changes.

But you know that there is no distinction between classes

(nor an Adrenalin Module...)

 

 

Character Builds:

I give you that. However - Luke has brought all abilities on a "similar" level so

that you could take whatever you like. What still might be useful though, are "combos".

But that complexity also is not the same as ME (connection between Powers and Ammo types

and Weapons).

 

 

Weak Spots:

Ok - you should attach the ice dragon with fire. I give you that, too.

But no comparison to the Headshots, Weapons that are either good for shields/barriers or armor, etc.

Powers that are good for certain types. Combos that are good for certain types.

(one exception being the veeeery popular templar)

[yarpenthemad21]

seriously?
 
But I thought you played both games ?
 
I am at work and therefore just give a few quick key words.
 
Situational awareness:
Tube levels ! The utmost possible strategy would be to sometimes use treasure rooms and split up.
But I think there is no need for this.
Ferelden Castle:
Waiting for enemies to climb down a ladder and then push a button ?
Or grouping in wave 4 in that certain room on the right (you know which one) and keep barrier spammed.... great.
It is literally just waiting and pushing 2 buttons when the cooldown is over.

Nope this is not a awareness, it's a "tactic". You can call it "least resistance tactic".
I don't even use them, because for me they are too slow most of the time. It's just a working way to approach content so this content is the easiest.

You could do the same in ME3MP, even more. Spawns were controlled on map. Many maps have "camper spots" and it was very popular approach for players. I won't be talking about "famous" glacier spot...
You know what's the difference here? Because composition of units isn't a difference, banshee, phantom was a way to "break" cover, the same as DAIMP it is shadow and stalker.
MEMP3 maps are closed and quite small. There are several spawn points and in general spawn are where there aren't any player.
4 ppl running around can make spawns to be plain random with enemies showing up your ass (because game don't have a good spot for spawn and spawns it somewhere). But you can move as 4 players at once and control where mobs spawn and even drive them to choke points. It's not a "skill", just a tactic. Tactic based on knowledge about map a and mechanic.

Basic DAI has corridor type of map where you fight with one group after another. So on basic map it's more about ambush on the spawn, not controlling it. Still standing in the middle of the map on wave 5 is stupid idea. You can use "stupid" tactic like charge in and attack at random or let CC start the fight, group and disable mobs at start so clearing will be faster.
 
 

Parrying / Evading:
The game punishes you for taking these abilties (in case they are available...)
because you only have 4 precious slots.
And they don't work as one might hope for. For example Parry + AOE.
Evade only does its job if you turn to the right direction BEFORE
which costs that precios split second.

Hard to compare rpg style to shooter style. In mechanic way ME3MP was made around low health/low shields + health and shield gate (to ignore 1 shot kills) and DAIMP is made around reducing and avoiding damage by CC and guard/barrier. It's just two different stories. That's why "evade" skills in DAIMP are either CC cleanse, damage dealers, dash moves etc. We all remember how annoying it was to play krogan (or batarian) when enemies just stun locked you to death and you could do nothing to fight with it.

 

Speed:
The new characters bring some (small) changes.
But you know that there is no distinction between classes
(nor an Adrenalin Module...)

The higher speed in game is the more lag sensitive the game is. Nobody likes lags.
+ where speed is connected to skill?
 

Character Builds:
I give you that. However - Luke has brought all abilities on a "similar" level so
that you could take whatever you like. What still might be useful though, are "combos".
But that complexity also is not the same as ME (connection between Powers and Ammo types
and Weapons).

The opposite.
First you play from 1 to 19 all the time in DAI, which changes builds a lot,
Second combos in ME3MP (after changes) was a spamfest. Detonators and primers was so much frequent and with so much low cooldown that you could just spam the same skill all over and it will detonate something all the time.
DAI primers and detonators aren't that spammable and what is also important only few kits can detonate on their own.
 

Weak Spots:
Ok - you should attach the ice dragon with fire. I give you that, too.
But no comparison to the Headshots, Weapons that are either good for shields/barriers or armor, etc.
Powers that are good for certain types. Combos that are good for certain types.
(one exception being the veeeery popular templar)

For me it's the same. Aiming at huge Banshee head has for me the same "difficulty" as aiming with fire mine to blow some mobs or aiming with immolate to detonate some sleep combos, or hit 5 mobs at time.

But still what is connected with skill here? You first need to really define what is skill because those "keywords" has their name and are way more connected with experience, not with some "mystical" skill.

[Cryos_Feron]

Nope this is not a awareness, it's a "tactic".

I know exactly what you mean but still I wrote it.

 

Because those situations in ME where you have to position yourself wisely,

having to be aware of enemies coming from behind (or whereever)

reacting to certain bosses coming at you while the Marauders or Captains are waiting,

don't really exist in DAI ("tube-levels" !).

Please don't mention the Archers now. Of course they are a pain in the ass

but it is not like you stand in the middle of the map and they can come from anywhere

(Ferelden Castle being a little different though)

[yarpenthemad21]

I know exactly what you mean but still I wrote it.
 
Because those situations in ME where you have to position yourself wisely,
having to be aware of enemies coming from behind (or whereever)
reacting to certain bosses coming at you while the Marauders or Captains are waiting,
don't really exist in DAI ("tube-levels" !).
Please don't mention the Archers now. Of course they are a pain in the ass
but it is not like you stand in the middle of the map and they can come from anywhere
(Ferelden Castle being a little different though)

I need some mystical skill to position myself wisely or just generic knowledge where to stand?

[Cryos_Feron]

who said that skill doesn't also mean experience?

BUT the more complex the game (and the difficulty of the things you are doing),

the more important is experience.

[yarpenthemad21]

who said that skill doesn't also mean experience?

BUT the more complex the game (and the difficulty of the things you are doing),

the more important is experience.

So now skill is also experience?
We really need to use some definition.
Because if skill is also experience, statement that DAI don't require skill at all is so much false that it's even waste of time to argue about that and OP in this thread is just wrong.

[Cryos_Feron]

Actually, Nobody should claim to know what EXACTLY skill is.

 

(Except for Drasca, maybe    )

 

Generally speaking, for me skill consists of two sections:

1.) Things that can be learned or practised (a long-learning curve indicates a higher skill requirement and complexity)

2.) Game elements that require natural "talent" (you know those people that simply achieve better results although they have the same gear and experience)

 

In my opinion, ME3 has waaaaay more of both aspects than DAI has.

 

This just the way I experience both games and I cannot help it.

Obviously you think otherwise. So be it.

[yarpenthemad21]

Actually, Nobody should claim to know what EXACTLY skill is.
 
(Except for Drasca, maybe    )
 
Generally speaking, for me skill consists of two sections:
1.) Things that can be learned or practised (a long-learning curve indicates a higher skill requirement and complexity)
2.) Game elements that require natural "talent" (you know those people that simply achieve better results although they have the same gear and experience)
 
In my opinion, ME3 has waaaaay more of both aspects than DAI has.
 
This just the way I experience both games and I cannot help it.
Obviously you think otherwise. So be it.

I would even agree with this definition of skill. Natural "talent", abilities, in general things which can't be learned + knowledge, experience and everything connected with practice.
You can't be skilled having only one part of it but I don't have any impact of first component. I can't learn "talent".
So why we should treat games in which "talent" part is more important as those with higher skill? Some games need huge investment in knowledge part, tactical part, in learning part and why this is less important, less "skilled" than game which is made around reflex?

[Spin-Orbit]

I second this though, can we stop comparing DAIMP with MEMP every single time? There are lot of player who did not play ME3MP and perhaps never will (such as myself) let's keep the discussions on the merits of DAIMP.

 

As for skills, this game as much as all others are more matter of luck than skill, youtube is full of videos of Dark Souls 2 PvP (I played this a lot) where 3 year old wins against a invader (invader can be a 2 year old? possible) , so enough on the skill or not is needed and let's just enjoy the game.

[Laforgus]

In my opinion, ME3 has waaaaay more of both aspects than DAI has.

Because DAI doesn't give the chance to test it, because promotions.

[Cryos_Feron]

and what makes you think I don't mean it like you do?

after 80 hours of DAI only my gear has gotten any better. today I am still as good (or bad)

after 80 hours of ME3 I was still a baby shitting my pants when I saw a Praetorian.
(today still learning...)


btw, even things like headshots require a lot of practice - not only talent.