291 réponses à ce sujet

[Rekkampum]

Because he isn't a bad guy at all, the people he killed were people he was ordered to kill and was likely not even told everything. In his shoes I might very well have done the same, deciding to impersonate Blackwall rather than let everything think I murdered him. And he did some good for the Wardens even without being one, sending worthy recruits to the Grey Wardens might very well have gotten them good recruits they wouldn't have gotten otherwise. And frankly, he's a skilled enough warrior that he is quite useful to keep around if you're the type to think practically.

 

Put it this way, no one who recruits Sten in DAO should have any right to complain about keeping Blackwall. What Sten did was much worse, but he too is a good person who is skilled enough to be worth keeping even if you don't like what he did.

 

Sten didn't hide the fact that he'd killed those people nor assume a fake identity to cover himself. Blackwall also knew who the people he killed were and their status; the only people who didn't know were his soldiers who were simply following his orders. Blackwall also didn't send any Warden recruits; he himself mentioned he normally traveled alone, obviously didn't perform joinings - because he'd never even had one himself- and those conscripts he did have were released; not to mention he used the treaties of the Grey Wardens under false pretenses. That's way worse than anything Sten ever did. I don't hate Blackwall though.

 

In response to the OP, I left him in the prison in a couple playthroughs, and in others, sent him to the Wardens. I think I've forgiven him before in one playthrough but it's hard to say why. I just did. As for sending him to the Wardens, I thought it was a sufficient means of him atoning for his actions, and given that he'd assumed the identity of a Warden it only made sense that he actually would commit himself to becoming one. 

[TheRatPack55]

I have to admit I never saw what Blackwall did as particularly terrible... I (meaning my player characters) get up to much worse things in the games I play, and I certainly admit characters with more blood on their hands and less remorse into my various player parties, so in-game I felt kind of dismissive of the whole thing. 'Dude, you're a valuable member of my squad and we've got bigger problems than this so just come back with me and let's continue what we've been doing', basically.

 

Overall, his lies didn't affect his performance, so what do I care? It was just some Orlesian murderbait that would have gotten murdered at some point anyway, cause, Orlais.

[c0bra951]

I don't think so, because people do pick up on it.  It's just that it is a really big game, and there are a lot of social issues (if that's the right concept) that they're trying to get you to think about.  I applaud the ambition, and wonder if they knew what they were letting themselves in for.  It's a video game, and you get as much or as little out of it as you want.  There are a lot of heavy, current issues in there, and there's a lot to think about, if you want, but I bet it's possible to click through codexes, not reading anything, and still finish the game too.

 

YOU KNOW, IF THEY USED BOTH UPPER- AND LOWERCASE IN THEIR STUPID FONT, I WOULD READ A HECK OF A LOT MORE IN THOSE CODICES.  HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT SUCH LITERARY AND LITERATE WRITERS DON'T KNOW THAT USING ALL CAPS, WITH SLIGHTLY SMALLER LETTERS SUBSTITUTING FOR PROPER LOWERCASE, IS SO MUCH HARDER TO READ, PARTICULARLY IN TEXT WALLS?

[Torgette]

Blackwall's predicament is basically exactly the same as Ser Ruth's - in her judgement she turns herself in asking to be judged for her crime of murder, you can "execute" her by exiling her to the deep roads, give her to the grey wardens/exile her, imprison or give her public humiliation. Personally I exiled Ser Ruth to the deep roads as that seems like something the Grey Wardens would do. Personally I never made a decision on Blackwall's imprisonment, if that's how he wants to atone then I have to respect that - it would be sort of a cruel joke if you can make him a grey warden and then exile him to the deep roads.

[Dorian Pavus]

In my first playthrough, my Trevelyan sprung him because he was furious - about the murder of children, and also about the deceit that put a lot of the Inquisition's work in jeopardy. When you spring him, Blackwall makes some accusation about how all Thedas will know the Inquisition is corrupt, but he added to that corruption by providing us false treaties to call in - which could have ruined the then-fledgling Inquisition both politically and in the form of retaliation if it had been found out earlier. Blackwall was also consulted on several important matters relating to Grey Wardens, and those consultations and information was used to formulate plans which could have gone disastrously wrong given he pulled everything out of his ass, where as if he'd just admitted he had no frigging idea, other avenues of information could have been pursued or at least we'd have known we were running in blind.

That Trevelyan freed him not to spare him but so he could also be judged for his crimes against the Inquisition, and still fully intended Blackwall to face the headman for his crimes if he was found guilty after trial - I wasn't aware at the time that that wasn't an option on this judgement (seriously? you can execute someone for throwing a goat but not for child murder and treason? okay then) and since I didn't have a convenient save that wouldn't involve repeating several hours of play, I ended up giving him to the Wardens and just pretended that it was less of a 'at the end' and more of an immediate thing, since my character did not, funnily enough, trust Blackwall after the extensive lying, so the benefits he provided as a fighter would have been outweighed by the need to watch him.

 

 

My Lavellan left him in jail - she felt for him, but still felt that it was fair that he face judgement since he had, in fact, done the thing. She was less concerned by the lying (having been a spy at the conclave), but she didn't feel it was in the Inquisition's scope to go interfering with Orlais' judicial system, especially when she wouldn't have done it if the person involved hadn't been one of her companions (for example, if Blackwall had just been one of the adamant "Wardens" or one of the foot soldiers or something) - the Inquisition was supposed to be a power for good, not for her personal emotions.

 

 

My current Trevelyan - I'm not sure which way he'll go? He very, very much believes in second chances and forgiveness and mercy, but he's also very, very prone to making rash decisions fuelled by emotion when in emotional situations, so it may depend on just how angry and hurt he is by the discovery and whether or not he ends up hardened by then (his idealistic nature is not doing well vs the reality of Thedas oops) so... idk, i'll play it by ear this time, I think.

 

 

I don't think I could ever do a forgive/pardon play through though, just on my own personal comfort level.

[KaiserShep]

it would be sort of a cruel joke if you can make him a grey warden and then exile him to the deep roads.

 

I suspect that Blackwall might not have taken it quite as badly as it would seem. 

[Ariella]

Or rather "save" him.
 
Why did you do it? I don't see why anyone would. For one thing, it's the justice system and that's how it works. Not to mention that he willingly decided to do it and I figured I'd respect his wishes.
 
So for anyone who brought Blackwall back to Skyhold, what was your reasoning? I feel like even if you romanced him you wouldn't do that, but that's just my thought.

Because it would be a wasted death. Better to spend that death doing something to the benefit of all rather than have him hang which will not bring back the dead.

[9TailsFox]

Blackwall's predicament is basically exactly the same as Ser Ruth's - in her judgement she turns herself in asking to be judged for her crime of murder, you can "execute" her by exiling her to the deep roads, give her to the grey wardens/exile her, imprison or give her public humiliation. Personally I exiled Ser Ruth to the deep roads as that seems like something the Grey Wardens would do. Personally I never made a decision on Blackwall's imprisonment, if that's how he wants to atone then I have to respect that - it would be sort of a cruel joke if you can make him a grey warden and then exile him to the deep roads.

Judging ser Ruth's is even more pointless then judging Blackwall's. What wardens did is killed 'willing" member of the order and put 'spirits" in others they break no human laws. Maybe some chantry laws but I don't care for chantry I care more about spirits and what Solas think. Why throw someone at darkspawn to die then she can do same think and help people at the same time, I see no logic in it.

[Dabrikishaw]

Judging ser Ruth's is even more pointless then judging Blackwall's. What wardens did is killed 'willing" member of the order and put 'spirits" in others they break no human laws. Maybe some chantry laws but I don't care for chantry I care more about spirits and what Solas think. Why throw someone at darkspawn to die then she can do same think and help people at the same time, I see no logic in it.

There's also the options of letting Ruth go by either refusing to judge a Warden or using a Faithful Inquisitor to offer forgiveness.

[Arisugawa]

For my Lavellen, it is usually a factor of respecting the Grey Wardens right to recruit. Had the real Blackwall not perished, Thom Rainier would be a Warden and there wouldn't have been anything Orlais or Ferelden could have done about that. She is merely respecting the intentions of Rainer's recruiter, and will hand him over to the Wardens after the matter of the Elder One is resolved.

 

This is, for her, a matter of honoring the arrangements between the Grey Wardens and the world, so that she doesn't set a precedent where future Wardens who were recruited with less-than-honorable pasts are available for prosecution by any government at any time. Had Rainer been properly recruited when Blackwall intended, he'd be just another Warden with a terrible past that he didn't want to talk about but might discuss once he knew you better. The ranks of the Wardens, despite Alistair's opinion to the contrary, are littered with such individuals.

 

Don't get me wrong, his deception does not sit well with her and it is a schism between them that will likely never be repaired. Things will never be what they once were in terms of their friendship.

[9TailsFox]

There's also the options of letting Ruth go by either refusing to judge a Warden or using a Faithful Inquisitor to offer forgiveness.

Yes this is what I pick. Just let her go.

[zambingo]

I believe that sending Ruth to the Deep Roads is no more a death sentence than the one she already lives by being a Warden. After this judgment you can also team her with the Legion of the Dead, which essentially ensures she will be fulfilling her duties as a Warden as best and as long as she can. It is less a punishment all told and more an assignment of her purpose.

[Daerog]

My canon Inquisitor forgives Ruth and has her end up living in a chantry.

 

As for the Deep Roads option, I agree with zambingo that it is really just letting her continue being a Grey Warden. What else is she going to do? Sit around with her supernatural cancer and think of crazier and crazier ways of killing the Old Gods? Killing her or imprisoning her is a waste of someone who is already on death row and wishes to serve some purpose, and giving her to the Wardens again would just lead her to get involved in whatever nonsense they are currently engaged in.

 

Letting her be what a Grey Warden is or giving her another purpose (like the finding faith thing) are the best options in that situation, in my opinion.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

I think people forget that Sten butchered a whole family simply because he was depressed over losing his "soul" (aka sword). Not to mention STEN wanted to die rather than roaming around trying to be a better person like Blackwall.

[NoForgiveness]

I couldn't let a good man die. It's that simple.

[fizzypop]

Pretty easy choice actually: he's useful. He wants to help and he's remorseful. I'm all about putting people to good use. I gave him to the wardens as a punishment and atonement for lying to me and for escaping justice. Blackwall had already planned on turning him into a warden. The wardens are a bunch of criminals so it seems like a good fit. I would feel differently if he wasn't remorseful or didn't want to help. I mean I even kept Alexius around because he was useful and he would cooperate. I personally don't believe in the death penalty. I think it should be a last resort when nothing else will work. IE like that crazy mage guy who tricked the wardens. Though even I didn't kill him I turned him tranquil. Everyone was pissed about that lol.

 

 

I think people forget that Sten butchered a whole family simply because he was depressed over losing his "soul" (aka sword). Not to mention STEN wanted to die rather than roaming around trying to be a better person like Blackwall.

 
True story the first time I played origins I left Sten there. He wanted to die and he murdered a whole family. I was like "**** this I don't need to convince you of ****" and left him to die. I didn't even know he was recruit-able until I had already finished the play through.

[Elhanan]

I chose twice to allow Blackwall to become a Warden; seemed appropriate somehow, and was the best choice for me to make something good occur from all the bad. Both Inq's are created as noble hearted, so a positive outcome was the plan.

But the character only briefly traveled with me in either campaign; Cassandra is the only Warrior chosen to defend the Inq in the field.

[Shadow Fox]

At least Sten didnt hide what he had done. Given the darkspawn were ready to swarm down on Lothering, leaving him in a cage to be murdered by the horde isnt comparable IMO, to leaving a man in prison to tried and judged.

I plan to leave Blackwell to rot this time. Its not just about him murdering children, and its not just about him leaving one of his men to rot in prison in his stead. Those two things alone are awful. It is also the fact that he lied to the Inquisition and the information he provided could have caused significant damage. I really dislike his charactor big time!

How is this different from Leliana,Morrigan and Solas?

[Shadow Fox]

Fair point, however I am not certain Leliana participated in the deaths of children. Kinda next level **** there. lol Even with that I was fine having him live on to fight and perhaps positively affect others until he dies.

With that said, as a player I didn't believe he was a Warden for one second (not spoiled). There was no reason for my Quizzy to second guess him though so I recruited him and waited for the other shoe to drop... and damn that was one hell of a shoe.

This is the same woman who gleefully orders a child kidnapped for use as a political hostage.

[KaiserShep]

While Ranier did make his own bed, who realistically believes that anyone has any better than a snowball's chance in hell at being given a chance if they knew right off the bat what that guy did? 

[zambingo]

This is the same woman who gleefully orders a child kidnapped for use as a political hostage.

Huh. I am not doubting you, but could you tell me when this happens? I missed it or something.

[zambingo]

While Ranier did make his own bed, who realistically believes that anyone has any better than a snowball's chance in hell at being given a chance if they knew right off the bat what that guy did?

It's possible to rationalize, but leaves the Quizzy on extremely dubious ground because of the state of the Inquisition at the time.

Players could fall back on Sten being given a chance. In Sten's case he's so blunt about it and remorseful that it almost dulls the reality of what he did. Plus as a Warden you know at this point in DAO that they conscript all capable types to get the job done. Of course in Sten's case we are also afforded legal means to take him, assuming we use those means.

If Blackwall, right after seeing him help the farmers defend his land, comes right out like Sten did then the Quizzy is left with one good guy line of action; apprehend the war criminal, then hold him jailed while you try to verify his conscripted status* or release him to Orlesian authority. All other options at that point would seem to be subversive.

*side thought: this would probably need some type of dialogue unlock, maybe thedas history.

[Dieb]

Sten did kill all of them himself & with his bare hands - which even for a man of his size should take a while... well, maybe not the kids- and his remorse lies in exclusively in the loss of his sword and the disobedience of his codex.

 

But he didn't lie to the player, damnit! Not even Sten is that insane.

[Cobra's_back]

The Wardens and the Legion of the Dead were groups of men and women looking for redemption. I chose to have him join the Wardens.

[zambingo]

Since the lying was a point you're making, Dieb, it wasn't a factor for me in regards to worsening Blackwall's actions and decision for punishment. The lying is all part of the same crime.

As for Sten's remorse being exclusive to his personal loss and attributing a time table to his actions, I could be mistaken but I believe these are assumptions beyond what we know*. Imagining more or less to justify our decision could be intellectually dishonest.

*When releasing Sten we only know he killed farmers (including children). At this time we know he has submitted to local judgment and wants to die. That is the facts at the time of the decision. We then have a few choices; subvert the judgment by breaking the lock immediately or talking to the authorities (then being a jerk /or using our Grey Warden status as a means to show this criminal will find justice in his purpose with us).

It is not until later that we learn Sten kills his rescuers after awaking from injury and having at least one conversation with them. We also know he killed them bare handed and he states he did so knowing they were innocent of anything towards him. We do not know where they were in relation to him when he snaps, we only know he panicked then killed them and then submits to judgment. He knows he can't return home without his religious identity (his sword), he also describes himself as weak minded (which is in reference to his actions when confronted with the inability to return home).