291 réponses à ce sujet

[MEBengal2008]

Or rather "save" him.

 

Why did you do it? I don't see why anyone would. For one thing, it's the justice system and that's how it works. Not to mention that he willingly decided to do it and I figured I'd respect his wishes.

 

So for anyone who brought Blackwall back to Skyhold, what was your reasoning? I feel like even if you romanced him you wouldn't do that, but that's just my thought.

 

I saved blackwall as he was recruited by the Warden and one option was he was to join the wardens after the Inquisition ended. I got to pick that. It is justice as the Wardens can conscript anyone, even Criminals. This goes back to DAO city elf origin story.

[Qun00]

I'm curious how many arguing in favor of leaving Blackwall in prison recruited Sten.

I was guilty of meta gaming the decision. I was intrigued at the prospect at seeing the post-prison banter with the other companions. I in fact didn't even tank with him (I used Bull as SnS), but the banter prospect made me very curious. This is just a game after all. Sending him to the Wardens seemed an acceptable fate.

In reality I would be almost paralyzed with indecision with each Judgment the Inquisitor makes. Everyone one of them was tough for me to decide. Being a judge is not a career decision I would ever undertake.

In hindsight, this whole thread has given me pause about the real world profession of a judge. It perhaps makes me respect them more for doing a tough job in society.

Sten didn't feel any real remorse. He just accepted punishment because the Qun says so.

The guy is your typical emotionless Qunari drone.

[c0bra951]

This time around, I decided to send him to the wardens after the fight is over.  Then I told him to use the opportunity to atone.  He seemed way more pleased with that than with the forgiveness he got in previous runs.

 

 

I saved blackwall as he was recruited by the Warden and one option was he was to join the wardens after the Inquisition ended. I got to pick that. It is justice as the Wardens can conscript anyone, even Criminals. This goes back to DAO city elf origin story.

 

I agree.  So sending him to the wardens is the best thing to do, right?  They can accept his penance and service, and make a legitimate warden out of him, or they can conscript him into their service.  Either way, the judgment seems best left to them, now that I've had several playthroughs to think about it.  I suppose they can also have him executed; but if that's their consensus, then Blackwall really is dead in any event.

[Korva]

It's interesting that Blackwall doesn't choose the Wardens if you give him his freedom to atone as he wills. Even after Adamant, he still admires them and doesn't want to blame them for the butchery of their own kind and the way they all but flung themselves into Erimond's clutches. Obviously he can't take the Joining until Corpyheus is gone, and he does want to stick around long enough to help make that happen -- but between his persistent admiration for the Wardens and his obvious resentment of the Inquisitor for saving him, I really didn't expect him to pick the Inquisition over the Wardens in that moment at the judgment.

[Cobra's_back]

This time around, I decided to send him to the wardens after the fight is over.  Then I told him to use the opportunity to atone.  He seemed way more pleased with that than with the forgiveness he got in previous runs.

 

 

 

I agree.  So sending him to the wardens is the best thing to do, right?  They can accept his penance and service, and make a legitimate warden out of him, or they can conscript him into their service.  Either way, the judgment seems best left to them, now that I've had several playthroughs to think about it.  I suppose they can also have him executed; but if that's their consensus, then Blackwall really is dead in any event.

 

I agree with this. Duncan was a prisoner when the Warden Commander conscripted him. Seems like a good pick for him. He might actually be able to do some good there as well. At least he is a character who is looking for redemption.

[Korva]

Corypheus aside, the problem I have with giving him to the Wardens is that while they do indeed do some good and have saved the world five times now, it comes with quite a bit of bad baggage. Inquisition makes that quite clear, but even Origins removed the rose-tinted hero glasses very early in the shocking Joining scene. And Ser Ruth says "I have done worse with full sanction".  And the mention of Weisshaupt in the epilogue isn't very promising either, even with the caveat that Bioware is known to happily ignore their own epilogues more often than not. Sending Blackwall to them could turn out to be less of a chance to truly atone and more of a swift nasty test of his true character when he is forced to choose between obeying orders and listening to his conscience.

 

If you keep the southern Wardens around and they become more open and remain as allies, that might be less of a problem. Still, my Inquisitor won't be keen on truly trusting them any time soon -- I imagine her keeping a very close eye on them and being extremely frank about her harsh expectations for them after Adamant. They are needed, but the secrecy, being above the law when it comes to fighting darkspawn, and the by-all-means attitude do cause undeniable problems that shoud be addressed. And Blackwall likely wouldn't have nearly enough rank with them to have any influence on their attitudes and policies any time soon.

[Cz-99]

I took him back 'cause his lies are nothing compared to Solas'. At least Blackwall didn't start the apocalypse. Not to mention the former actually owned up to his screw-ups and went to seek penance/justice, instead of running away like a coward and QQing about being weak.

[ask_again_later]

I saved blackwall as he was recruited by the Warden and one option was he was to join the wardens after the Inquisition ended. I got to pick that. It is justice as the Wardens can conscript anyone, even Criminals. This goes back to DAO city elf origin story.

The majority of the origins were criminals: dwarf noble, dwarf commoner, city elf and mage.

[c0bra951]

Corypheus aside, the problem I have with giving him to the Wardens is that while they do indeed do some good and have saved the world five times now, it comes with quite a bit of bad baggage. Inquisition makes that quite clear, but even Origins removed the rose-tinted hero glasses very early in the shocking Joining scene. And Ser Ruth says "I have done worse with full sanction".  And the mention of Weisshaupt in the epilogue isn't very promising either, even with the caveat that Bioware is known to happily ignore their own epilogues more often than not. Sending Blackwall to them could turn out to be less of a chance to truly atone and more of a swift nasty test of his true character when he is forced to choose between obeying orders and listening to his conscience.

 

If you keep the southern Wardens around and they become more open and remain as allies, that might be less of a problem. Still, my Inquisitor won't be keen on truly trusting them any time soon -- I imagine her keeping a very close eye on them and being extremely frank about her harsh expectations for them after Adamant. They are needed, but the secrecy, being above the law when it comes to fighting darkspawn, and the by-all-means attitude do cause undeniable problems that shoud be addressed. And Blackwall likely wouldn't have nearly enough rank with them to have any influence on their attitudes and policies any time soon.

 

This time, I've been fairly consistent in terms of roleplay.  I kept the wardens after Adamant, but I called them idiots, laying the blame at their feet and telling them to get their act together.  I know they're more of a necessary evil than a force for good (with the key word here being "necessary").  After springing Rainier from prison, I sent Cullen to deal with the consequences.  He kicks whatever tail he needs to kick, and the treaties remain in force.  Rainier's head is potentially on the chopping block, and it's up to him to redeem himself, not only for me and the Inquisition, but also for the wardens to which he has been pretending to belong.  Let them decide how much of an affront or service to them he has been.

 

So the wardens stay, after a proper tongue lashing.  Orlais is forced to accept the events surrounding Rainier and the wardens, preserving a crucial status quo.  And Rainier gets one last chance as he lends his considerable talents to the survival of the world.

[MEBengal2008]

His life is in the hands of the joining. He has yet to make it that far, remember. Therefore, he could join and die during the joining. Or he could join and than have roughly 10 years before the calling takes his life.

[Deebo305]

if you call giving him to Wardens saving him then I suppose. Frankly I've never viewed the Wardens as heroes. I see them like I see the Nights Watch from GoT, a reliable group of rapers,murderers, and thieves with afew big hearted volunteers

So if he survives the joining or doesn't, Justice is served

[Daerog]

I find some people's ideas of justice strange in this thread.

 

Good to know that people have differing ideas of what justice is I guess.

 

Both pragmatically and morally I find giving him to the Wardens wrong. If he dies in the Joining, it prevents more good from him being done. If he doesn't, then his life is shortened and his capability for doing good is limited to the orders given to him by his new superiors. He's an Atoner anyway, it is just unnecessary to give him to the Wardens and allow fewer good things/deeds to be done in the world. Leaving him in the jail or giving him to the Wardens is the greater injustice, forcing him to serve the Inquisition or forgiving him I find to be the real just options.

[c0bra951]

I find some people's ideas of justice strange in this thread.

 

Good to know that people have differing ideas of what justice is I guess.

 

Both pragmatically and morally I find giving him to the Wardens wrong. If he dies in the Joining, it prevents more good from him being done. If he doesn't, then his life is shortened and his capability for doing good is limited to the orders given to him by his new superiors. He's an Atoner anyway, it is just unnecessary to give him to the Wardens and allow fewer good things/deeds to be done in the world. Leaving him in the jail or giving him to the Wardens is the greater injustice, forcing him to serve the Inquisition or forgiving him I find to be the real just options.

 

Why?  Rainier claims to have been recruited into the wardens by a warden.  Since the real Blackwall died, allegedly before making the recruiting known, and since Rainier assumed the identity of Warden Blackwall, this is mostly a warden matter.  The only part which isn't is the crime that Orlais wanted him to answer for, and that was basically vetoed by the Inquisition.  Who better to judge him now?  Who better to balance justice for Rainier's dark past against his indisputable service while assuming the role of a warden?

 

Pragmatically, it makes no difference.  Rainier remains in the role of Blackwall through the end of the game, either way.

[duckley]

It is a moral or ethical decision. And yes, morals/ethics differ in people, cultures, nations...

 

My morals and ethics say that if a man murders innocents or assists others in murdering innocents  - that person needs to take responsibility for his/her actions. Going around pretending to be someone else, enjoying freedom, apparently doing "good deeds" is all well and good, but that doesn't mitigate what he did. He is not paying for his crime so to speak, he is avoiding punishment.

 

Even if the parents in the group he killed were political enemies (although he apparently did this for money, not politics), the others in this entourage were not.

 

Too bad the murdered children don't get the chance  to enjoy freedom, do good deeds and join the Inquisition.

 

Feeling remorse, wanting to repent is good but  it simply is not enough to excuse murdering children IMO. Pay your debt and then go free..

[Sports72Xtrm]

It is a moral or ethical decision. And yes, morals/ethics differ in people, cultures, nations...

 

My morals and ethics say that if a man murders innocents or assists others in murdering innocents  - that person needs to take responsibility for his/her actions. Going around pretending to be someone else, enjoying freedom, apparently doing "good deeds" is all well and good, but that doesn't mitigate what he did. He is not paying for his crime so to speak, he is avoiding punishment.

 

Even if the parents in the group he killed were political enemies (although he apparently did this for money, not politics), the others in this entourage were not.

 

Too bad the murdered children don't get the chance  to enjoy freedom, do good deeds and join the Inquisition.

 

Feeling remorse, wanting to repent is good but  it simply is not enough to excuse murdering children IMO. Pay your debt and then go free..

But you never go free, even if you pay your debts. Joining the Inquisition is like joining the army, it's not a vacation. You fight demons and darkspawn and anything that threatens the stability of Thedas. Joining the Wardens is like joining a suicide squad- there's no rehabilitation. You're just another body to throw at the darkspawn and eventually die anyways because your tainted. It seems like exploitation rather than atonement. I wonder if execution would have been more just than joining the wardens. If it was an unrepentant criminal than yeah, but Blackwall is sincere and a good man. Having him join the wardens is delaying his execution just to exploit him; though Blackwall probably doesn't see it that way.Maybe not even the Inquisitor but that's the common rationale isn't it? Have him fight darkspawn, hoping for his death and unmourned as retribution for the children, but when a blight hits cower behind him.

[Snowy-Ninja]

Or rather "save" him.

 

Why did you do it? I don't see why anyone would. For one thing, it's the justice system and that's how it works. Not to mention that he willingly decided to do it and I figured I'd respect his wishes.

 

So for anyone who brought Blackwall back to Skyhold, what was your reasoning? I feel like even if you romanced him you wouldn't do that, but that's just my thought.

 

The main reason I keep him is because its a waste to kill him. Orlais is easily my least favorite nation in this game its just so over the top, you make one faux pas in the right social setting and splat someone kills you so to have them "judge" him is laughable. But having the Inquisitor judge him is a little less stupid, for me during my first "honest" play through I spared him and allowed him to stay as Rainier as the wardens had gone mad and we didn't know what was happening in the Anderfels.

 

For me he was a likable character and while I shall never excuse the crimes he's committed he became a good friend to my Inquisitor, plus he was fun to have around with Sera and his romance with Josephine was sickeningly sweet in some weird way. I know its wrong to "Pardon" a murderer but his story was written in a way that made me want to forgive him, also it would seem hypocritical (is that the right word?) to have him executed or leave the Inquisition for being a liar or murderer.

 

After all Solas lies to you about who he is, Leliana, Sera and Vivenne all kill people during the game for minor reasons. Look at how many Cole has killed and what he helped start by killing certain people, then you have Cullen who stood by and watched mages loose their basic rights as living beings during DA2 and in certain play through's helped kill the surviving mages during DAO. So if you get rid of Blackwall for being a lying murderer you also have to take into consideration the rest of your team, granted you can't get rid of either Cullen or Leliana but you can get rid of most of your companions. 

 

But yeah long and short of it, I liked the character i've never romanced him but as a friend he's a good guy or at least he's trying to be. Sure he might never make up for what he's done but when you look at the world of Thedas as a hole you realize that this kind of things is quite commonplace. He's useful and fun with the right companions so I keep him. 

[Toasted Llama]

...

 

Letting Blackwall atone for his crimes is bad apparently, but killing connor in DA:O still nets you the Hero of Ferelden title.

 

 

I'm afraid Thedas doesn't care about children as much as we do