291 réponses à ce sujet

[FemShem]

Seriously, I did it for the unlock for the Keep.  I got rid of him twice for two different reasons first two play throughs.

My BFF also plays, she kept him because she thought he was cute and was her fav tank.  

Well, that's a poll of two anyway.

[Dieb]

And let's not forget, if a Chevalier sees a peasant woman he wants, it's perfectly legal for him to just rape her.

 

They didn't insult the Inquisitor by lying to him, though.

 

That's a very serious offence.

[Sifr]

And let's not forget, if a Chevalier sees a peasant woman he wants, it's perfectly legal for him to just rape her.

 

And it's not like it's just Orlais that has corruption amongst the nobility and a loose definition of justice when it comes to the legal system, in Ferelden and the Free Marches, mercenaries are regularly hired to wage private wars between nobles. Meeran put it best in DA2;

 

"The nobles shank each other for sport... we're just their knives"

 

If Blackwall hadn't taken the bribe to do the job, Callier and his family would still be dead from the man or woman who took it instead?

[Dai Grepher]

The beard. /end thread

 

Seriously, because he was originally recruited to be a Grey Warden, he was honestly sorry for what he did, was making amends for what he did, took responsibility, and he was a friend. So I got him out of jail and sent him to the Grey Wardens.

 

Really quite similar to Cole, or Sera, or Solas, or The Iron Bull, or even Dorian to some extent. Leliana too. In fact, I wonder if she knew and kept quiet because she saw herself in him.

 

And don't get me wrong, I was angry about it because I took him to Halamshiral and used the Grey Warden treaties he offered. If anyone at the palace had recognized him, we all may have been thrown out, in which case it would have been game over. The treaties were an embarrassment, but that was mitigated since I had already allied with the Wardens by then anyway. And it could also be said I had allied with the Hero of Ferelden by then too (through Anora), and he was a Warden-Commander and King of Ferelden.

[Broganisity]

1) How is what she did worse than what he did?
 

2) Who says I sent the Avvar tribe to raid Tevinter? Who says I sent Leliana's people to "take care" of someone? How is ordering someone to do something for the greater good comparable to killing children and an innocent woman for no reason whatsoever?

3) I will be desecrating the memory of the real Blackwall by letting a person who he was good to and who has spent all this time pretending to be him in order to save his own butt get off Scott free.

4) I will be killing someone if I pick Leliana, I will be killing multiple people if I pick Cullen.

5) And let's not forget that if it wasn't for the Inquisitor being a good role model, Blackwall would have let that man hang in the gallows in his place.

1) Tom Rainier committed treason and unintentionally allowed innocents to be killed.

 

Josephine plays chess with real people and in your name; she plays The Game. The Game involves ruining lives. A few words in the right ear, some reminders to the right people, the right glove on the right table. . .She blackmails, twists and lies, dishes out favors like candy and demands them just as much, while navigating the cesspool that is Orlesian Politics. That's how you survive in The Game, and that's how the Inquisition wins over Orlais.

2) The advisors act behind the scenes on matters even without your permission. Do you genuinely think that everything that happens in the Inquisition happens solely on if the Inquisitor wants it or not? They send people to tend to matters without bothering you on them because they are 'aren't important'. Even if you don't do war tables, there are other matters that are attended to; things are done and people suffer for it, innocent and guilty. Opposing voices are silenced, and troublesome people are dealt with even if they aren't your classic 'tie to the railroad tracks' villains. This is war. Lives are lost in war.

What's more, Blackwall didn't know that the whole family was at the sight, he just gave the order to leave no witnesses. While not at all an excuse, nor was his reasons for such actions good, one wrong act does not make someone wicked.

3) Blackwall wanted Tom Rainier to become a Warden, and he did so in every way but actually partaking in The Joining. He spent Ten years helping people in Fereldan, sending recruits to the Wardens and protecting innocents.

4) The man they send in his place if you pick Leliana is a look-alike that was going to be killed for Treason. Basically, you're playing The Game and using a disposable pawn anyways. This is what you do when you work with Orlais. As for Cullen? That's the more direct approach and not how you get by in Orlais.
 

. . .but seriously though, Orlais sucks.

[Sifr]

3) Blackwall wanted Tom Rainier to become a Warden, and he did so in every way but actually partaking in The Joining. He spent Ten years helping people in Fereldan, sending recruits to the Wardens and protecting innocents.

 

I agree on everything you said, just wanted to point out, it's actually only four years, since the Callier massacre was in 9:37.

 

Still twice as long as Leliana spent in a cloister in Lothering to redeem herself for her life as a bard, so why does she get a pass for all the murder, blackmail and espionage she did on the job and he doesn't get any sympathy for a single bad mistake?

 

Especially since Leliana ended up back up to her old tricks again anyway thanks to Justinia, while Blackwall has thus far remained a good man?

[andy6915]

And it's not like it's just Orlais that has corruption amongst the nobility and a loose definition of justice when it comes to the legal system, in Ferelden and the Free Marches, mercenaries are regularly hired to wage private wars between nobles. Meeran put it best in DA2;

 

Seriously. Or is what a certain Arl's son did in the City Elf origin that different from what Chevalier's can do?

[AntiChri5]

When did Josie do this? She tried to be a bard and killed someone in self defense and then quit. How is what she did worse than what he did?

Who says I sent the Avvar tribe to raid Tevinter? Who says I sent Leliana's people to "take care" of someone? How is ordering someone to do something for the greater good comparable to killing children and an innocent woman for no reason whatsoever? The Inquisitor knows there will always be casualties and he/she can only do whatever's best to avoid as many as possible.

Also it's not about whether or not he's a good or bad person so much as the fact that by releasing him I'm going to be causing more damage. I will be distressing the family of the victims who think to themselves that the murderer of their loved ones will be walking around, I will be desecrating the memory of the real Blackwall by letting a person who he was good to and who has spent all this time pretending to be him in order to save his own butt get off Scott free, I will be killing someone if I pick Leliana, I will be killing multiple people if I kill Cullen and I will cause extremely tense relations between the Inquisition and Val Royeaux that would not only be bad for the Inquisition, but might cause one of the people who blames Reiner for his awful deeds do something stupid that they might regret. And let's not forget that if it wasn't for the Inquisitor being a good role model, Blackwall would have let that man hang in the gallows in his place.

Josephine is a particularly successful politician/diplomat in Orlais, a place where merely surviving in such a position means setting up rivals to get murdered at the very least. War Table operations have her casually ruining peoples lives.

 

Thom didn't kill them for no reason. He did it for money and status. Just like everyone else who plays the game that Orlais loves so much. The Game that Josephine plays masterfully. Where Rainer went wrong was in not realizing that he was not a player in the game, just someone else's tool. What Rainier and his men did, what they went through, is a perfect demonstration of the cost of The Game for the common people of Orlais.

 

Causing more damage by using one of the most capable combatants available to fight the monster trying to destroy the world? Just because a few nobles might be ab it sad? The entire household died. There are no grieving widows or children left behind. Just the usual pampered nobles who must be accustomed to the fallout of The Game by now.

 

The real Blackwall died trying to redeem Rainier for the greater good. It was more or less his dying wish. Rainier turning from his identity in disgust, making his new one it's exact opposite in every way possible and naming it after Blackwall is not an insult to his memory, but the ultimate tribute.

 

Rainier's crimes only ever come to light because of Blackwall taking responsibility. There is nothing the Orlesian "justice" system can do to him that is worse then what he already puts himself through.

[PsychoBlonde]

And it's not like it's just Orlais that has corruption amongst the nobility and a loose definition of justice when it comes to the legal system, in Ferelden and the Free Marches, mercenaries are regularly hired to wage private wars between nobles. Meeran put it best in DA2;

 

"The nobles shank each other for sport... we're just their knives"

 

If Blackwall hadn't taken the bribe to do the job, Callier and his family would still be dead from the man or woman who took it instead?

 

You can't separate the wheat from the chaff until you get rid of the system that rewards vice and destroys virtue.

 

Don't get me wrong--I think that what Blackwall did was reprehensible.  I just don't think that killing him would prevent him from doing it again (since he already turned his back on that life on his own recognizance) or make the situation better in any way.  And saving him did send a clear message that the Inquisition was willing to go to bat for its people.

 

Loyalty has to go both ways.  Otherwise it's just another way of keeping people down.  Blackwall was loyal to the Inquisition, so the Inquisition would be loyal to him.

 

I kind of viewed working for the Inquisition as kind of a Reset Button for people.  Mages, Templars, Grey Wardens, everybody did dumb ****, killed people, hurt people for no reason.  Come work for the Inquisition, fight loyally, and if you survive the slate is wiped clean as far as I'm concerned.

[AntiChri5]

Seriously. Or is what a certain Arl's son did in the City Elf origin that different from what Chevalier's can do?

I think it may be technically illegal in Ferelden. Although it's just as likely that it is just considered slightly more crass.

[ask_again_later]

If you spare him you ask him what you should call him and he says he's used to Blackwall, but that you should "think of it as a title, something to aspire to".

 

And legal justice isn't always just. I let him live because i believe he deserved another chance. He tortured himself with what he did for, what...10 years? He didn't live, he didn't escape. And he didn't do it because he wanted to. Bad orders.

Oh I don't mean to say it's just. I'm more playing the devil's advocate here. My main concern with interfering and bringing him back is that a) no one wants it [not even Blackwall; like you said, he wants justice to be served, and in his mind it's justice] and b ) It complicates relations between the Inquisition and Val Royeaux.

[FeliciaM]

Honestly. Because he was recruited to be a Grey Warden, who look over all crimes if you have skill enough to join. But he also lied to the Inquisition, and I thought swearing himself to the cause would be better then death. The Inquisitor said it best... 'shouldn't be wasted on courtroom diplomacy' in regard to Servis, I saw Blackwall the same way. He still has his uses.

 

Also... when comparing his crimes to past characters. It kind of puts it into perspective Especially compared to Zevran or Leliana... and those two are instantly forgiven for anything they do. But Blackwall should be condemned?

[ask_again_later]

And pointing out that Orlais justice system is flawed won't change the fact that Blackwall murdered someone. A Chevalier can take advantage of someone and get a way with it. Should that have consequences? Of course? But "oh they didn't punish this criminal so they shouldn't punish any criminals" isn't cutting it for me.

[Smudjygirl]

At the end of the day it comes down to what you see in him. I believe he deserved another chance to redeem himself. Others wanted to respect his wishes and leave him. He's a well written character or else there'd be no debate.

[Broganisity]

I agree on everything you said, just wanted to point out, it's actually only four years, since the Callier massacre was in 9:37.

 

Still twice as long as Leliana spent in a cloister in Lothering to redeem herself for her life as a bard, so why does she get a pass for all the murder, blackmail and espionage she did on the job and he doesn't get any sympathy for a single bad mistake?

 

Especially since Leliana ended up back up to her old tricks again anyway thanks to Justinia, while Blackwall has thus far remained a good man?

Oh, thought he was there since the blight. muh bad.

But yeah, Blackwall has consistently remained on his path of redemption, where as Leliana sorta did a face heel turn back to old tricks. . .that's the term, no? Face heel turn? I don't know.  . .But I do know I hate how she says 'no'. . .*flails randomly*

[In Exile]

Or rather "save" him.

Why did you do it? I don't see why anyone would. For one thing, it's the justice system and that's how it works. Not to mention that he willingly decided to do it and I figured I'd respect his wishes.

So for anyone who brought Blackwall back to Skyhold, what was your reasoning? I feel like even if you romanced him you wouldn't do that, but that's just my thought.

He's given his life and blood for the Inquisition. To me, that's reason enough to save him from execution. He's committed treason against Orlais but that's not the Inquisition's issue. More to the point you have other possible criminals in your midst (e.g. Cullen was part of a genocide).

I think simply giving him his freedom is unwarranted but that's why I always send him to the Wardens.

[In Exile]

I think the big difference between Blackwall and Sten for me is that the guilt isn't eating Sten alive, freeing Sten isn't illegal if you convince the sister, Qunari are weird like that, Sten didn't initially run from the consequences, Sten didn't steal anyone's identity or wimp out because he didn't want to die, Sten didn't need someone to convince him how to live his life in order to make decisions, and other stuff.

Using Josie makes it quite legal.

[ERINII]

I'm not saying his crimes are justified, but generally I believe that people can change and they should be given a chance to do that. Blackwall regretted his former life and wanted to dedicate the rest of his life to do good things. Past can't be erased, but he wants to atone. I was especially moved by his words after taking him with me to do the Hushed Whispers quest - I can't recall the exact phrasing, but something along the lines of "I'm glad that I mattered". He truly would be ready to even die for a good cause. Also, a dialogue between him and Cole was very touching; even a kind spirit wouldn't say anything because he knew that Blackwall wanted to fix things. "You don't want to be a murderer. You made a new you. You are Blackwall. You killed Rainier." Yet he never forgets his burden.

 

I admit that I didn't like him at first, since I despise liars almost above all else. However, I came to understand him later on. Actually, what angered me the most was how he acted after confessed everything. He basically calls you scum when you attempt to free him. He had his own reasons to act like that, sure, but it was frustrating to say the least.

 

To be completely honest, I probably would have left him to rot during my first playthrough if only I wasn't so obsessive. I need to gather all the party members every single time or I feel like I'm missing something.

[Daerog]

Legal... illegal... justice... injustice...

 

Ultimately, what is the point of it all? Harmony. Trying to make a harmonious society.

 

The point of "correction facilities" or prisons is *supposed* to be correction/rehabilitation, to encourage people to not do the bad/illegal thing again or any other bad/illegal thing. The justice system is meant to keep order and promote a more harmonious society when possible.

 

Thom changed his tune without needing that, he became a better person, he became a selfless person, he became a good person.

 

Letting a good person, a person trying to seek redemption, a rehabilitated person, be executed is not justice. There is no justice in it, only vengeance and murder.

 

That's just my opinion, though. My canon Loyalist Inquisitor just frees Thom, knowing that he'll just keep on his path of selflessness and redemption.

[Roninbarista]

My Inquisitor belved in getting a chance to redeem oneself. After all, Cassandra was ready to kill the Quis at the start of the game.

Blackwall sought to do the right thing, and he's a a man of good skills. He gets his chance to do more good for the Inqusition.

[Teddie Sage]

I always free him to live his existence as Thom Rainier. 

[Dieb]

...

 

I like the way you think.

 

Weirdly upbeat & un-edgy for being an individual on the internet.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The only reason I spare that monster is so he can spend every day of his life serving as a conscript to get even a fraction of the way to making amends. 

 

What I hate is how after you get him out the game assumes you're his buddy, like not being able to side with Cassandra in the banter between her and The Iron Bull about Rainier or heeding his wishes. 

[Teddie Sage]

Then don't free him from prison next time and don't bring in him on your party anymore? Better yet, don't recruit him as a character from now on. Problem solved.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Why did you do it? I don't see why anyone would. For one thing, it's the justice system and that's how it works. Not to mention that he willingly decided to do it and I figured I'd respect his wishes.

 

I am corrupt and play favorites, that is why.