291 réponses à ce sujet

[c0bra951]

My 2 "objective" reasons:

1. We are talking about a "justice" system that think is right for elves(or anyone who isn't a noble) to be killed en-mass because they committed the heinous crime of wanting to be treated less like sh**. But if a noble is harmed you get the death penalty.

2. He is not the first to commit crimes, but unlike others he seems to genuinely feel sorry about it. (The only thing that I would complain regarding his regret is that it seems, uh..misdirected, given how he seems to be a big Orlais fan-boy, and mostly because of guilt)

 

My "petty"( as in why I personally am pretty "meh" about the crime itself) resons

1. I hate orlesian nobles.

2. I hate kids.

3. If he would've stopped when he realized there are kids, the noble would have definitely killed him (being a ruthless self-entitled jerk is a requirement for being an orlesian noble)

4. He is a nearly unkillable tank.

 

You hated yourself until adulthood?  You hate the future of humanity?

 

The killing of children is by far his worst crime, though he convinced me that it was unintentional.  (He didn't foresee the family bring in the picture, and he wasn't there when his orders were carried out.)  Everything else is just war and conflict between grownups aware of the possible consequences of their power struggles.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The killing of children is by far his worst crime, though he convinced me that it was unintentional.  (He didn't foresee the family bring in the picture, and he wasn't there when his orders were carried out.)  Everything else is just war and conflict between grownups aware of the possible consequences of their power struggles.

He was there when the orders were carried out. He heard the children singing a nursery rhyme in the carriage before the carriage was attacked.  

He had an opportunity to call the attack off at that point, but he didn't take it. Thus the slaughter of those kids was intentional.

[vertigomez]

He was there when the orders were carried out. He heard the children singing a nursery rhyme in the carriage before the carriage was attacked.  
He had an opportunity to call the attack off at that point, but he didn't take it. Thus the slaughter of those kids was intentional.

Being paralyzed with fear and doubt =/= intentionally slaughtering kids. It's pretty clear that he did not intend for children to be there and for them to die.

Second chances for Blackwall. Second chances for Leliana and Loghain and Zevran and Isabela. Second chances for everyone. (ﾉ´ヮ´)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧

[beccatoria]

Being paralyzed with fear and doubt =/= intentionally slaughtering kids. It's pretty clear that he did not intend for children to be there and for them to die.

Second chances for Blackwall. Second chances for Leliana and Loghain and Zevran and Isabela. Second chances for everyone. (ﾉ´ヮ´)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧

 

That's a pretty charitable interpretation of his mindset and even if true, I'm sorry, but he ordered the murder of children.  Like, intentionally.  When you see a child and you're paralyzed with doubt about killing it, that's still amazingly awful.  Doubt implies there the right choice isn't clear.  

 

If he was paralyzed with fear - of being found out by his men, I guess - then he's still willingly choosing to murder kids in order to save his own skin.  That is the definition of cowardice. 

 

He was only in this situation because he put himself into it and when he realised that it was about to go horribly south, he gave up the opportunity to stop an atrocity because he feared for his own skin.  Like, this is his own characterisation of the situation. 

 

He may not have intended for the children to be there in the first place, but he absolutely intended to get them killed once he realised they were. 

[raging_monkey]

I keep him and make him a warden things happen and he did good work later so IMO it worked out. Sides we've dealt with people far worse (Fenris, aveline, Anders,Izzy,sten, etc ) even the pc has a body count

[DuskWanderer]

There was a more pressing need for Blackwall in the Inquisition. 

[We'll bang okay]

I think I already said this in another thread or this one can't remember which. But he was my tank    

[BabyPuncher]

It's a shame that a potentially interesting arc had such a lame and pointless conclusion.

Doubly so since it was one of a very few character arcs that showed significant promise in the game.

[Daerog]

Let's say the killing of the children was intentional. That he clearly ordered the death of the family, including children, babies, a pregnant woman, and a litter of mabari pups.

 

Let's say he was Ramsay Bolton and Joffrey Baratheon all mixed together.

 

I still think it is wrong to leave him to die.

 

Why?

 

He changed, he became a good person, or is at least on the road to becoming a good person.

 

There is no good in killing someone who is good or becoming good. That is not justice, that is not right. It would just be adding another corpse to the pile, needlessly, and would prevent more good being done in the world.

[CathyMe]

You hated yourself until adulthood? You hate the future of humanity?

The killing of children is by far his worst crime, though he convinced me that it was unintentional. (He didn't foresee the family bring in the picture, and he wasn't there when his orders were carried out.) Everything else is just war and conflict between grownups aware of the possible consequences of their power struggles.

Yeah pretty much What can I say...my parents knew how to put me in my place As for the future of humanity: if they are the future then they are the embodiment of overpopulation, dwindling resources and countless extinct species, but I digress. I guess what really annoys me regarding this is that the fact that there were children among the victims is what makes it atrocious in the eyes of others. A life is a life, regardless of age. I bet half of people here woldn't care about what he did if he only killed adults.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yeah pretty much What can I say...my parents knew how to put me in my place As for the future of humanity: if they are the future then they are the embodiment of overpopulation, dwindling resources and countless extinct species, but I digress. I guess what really annoys me regarding this is that the fact that there were children among the victims is what makes it atrocious in the eyes of others. A life is a life, regardless of age. I bet half of people here woldn't care about what he did if he only killed adults.

I would care. As you said, a life is a life. They could be 1, 10, or 100 and it wouldn't matter. They were innocents that Rainier had cut down. 

[raging_monkey]

Innocent is a interesting word

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Innocent is a interesting word

It is also an accurate word.

[Killdren88]

Because killing people I've never met before has no weight or impact on me what so ever.

[raging_monkey]

It is also an accurate word.

idk tbh they were orlaisan and the game assumes they were Possibly guilty by association that just orlais

[Hanako Ikezawa]

idk tbh they were orlaisan and the game assumes they were Possibly guilty by association that just orlais

You didn't just argue that, right? 

So the fact their dad was involved in politics makes them guilty of everything he did so killing them was perfectly fine? 

 

By that logic, the entire human race should be wiped out since we're all related to at least one bad person. 

[raging_monkey]

You didn't just argue that, right?
So the fact their dad was involved in politics makes them guilty of everything he did so killing them was perfectly fine?

By that logic, the entire human race should be wiped out since we're all related to at least one bad person.

love your responses always perplexed. No I didn't argue killing the kids was "fair" more "allowed due to the way orlais works " cutting out certain lines is "reasonable" for them players of the game

And I'm sure we've come close


Also you seem to confuse my understanding of Thessaly cultures and habit as a personal lack of morality please don't it's insulting

[Giantdeathrobot]

First, given how many people the Inquisitor and co. murder over the course of the story, giving Blackwall flak for carrying out orders even if it means the death of others seems a bit off.

 

Second, because it's clear that the man was devastated by the act. He's been seeking redemption ever since, and that's not found at the business end of an executioner's axe. He spent 10 years doing as much good as he could, so it's not like he just helped grannies cross the street once in a while to give himself good conscience. He dedicated his life to helping others.

 

Third, because at the end of the day I need swords to fight Corypheus, and Blackwall's a good one. No sense in killing him for something that happened over a decade ago.

 

 

 

 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

It's a shame that a potentially interesting arc had such a lame and pointless conclusion.

Doubly so since it was one of a very few character arcs that showed significant promise in the game.

 

Pray tell, how should it have progressed/resolved?

[Alfa Kilo]

I keep him and make him a warden things happen and he did good work later so IMO it worked out. Sides we've dealt with people far worse (Fenris, aveline, Anders,Izzy,sten, etc ) even the pc has a body count

Wait, Aveline? I can understand the others, but Aveline?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

love your responses always perplexed. No I didn't argue killing the kids was "fair" more "allowed due to the way orlais works " cutting out certain lines is "reasonable" for them players of the game

And I'm sure we've come close


Also you seem to confuse my understanding of Thessaly cultures and habit as a personal lack of morality please don't it's insulting

Sorry I misunderstood. I thought you were going elsewhere with your post before that one being how innocent was an interesting word. 

 

 

However regardless of culture, someone who hasn't done anything wrong is innocent thus Rainier murdered innocents. 

[raging_monkey]

No one is innocent in orlais

[Daerog]

Please, the ghast are entirely innocent.

 

Wait, are there ghast in Orlais, or are they just in the northeast?

 

No one is innocent in Orlais, except the ghast if they are in Orlais.

[9TailsFox]

I recruited all enemy's to Inquisition. Even Samson and Florian. I am not even consider to punish Blackwall. And his punishment would be serve Inquisition. oh wait he doing it.

[Dieb]

Neither Blackwall, nor Thom Rainier have ever been murderers.

 

The way it's actually presented is rather that he was sending his men out to attack the entire travelling party in what is a essentially military operation**, and some moment during, he realizes that there's civillians there. So he starts to panic and to bite his nails and hopes for the thing to blow over quickly. I'm only saying that because it seems to me, most people have the image stuck inside their heads that Rainier charged the car & cut each family member open himself with his sword & a boodlusty grin on his face.

 

It's stated at numerous times that he commanded the thing and simply didn't step in. That sounds disrespectful, but if killing the guards and the noble was all fair game (which, seriously, it would have been), then what happened was a terrible accident, and a weak-minded person in charge who failed to step forward in time; like it happens in RL catastrophes (during and outside war) all the time. I am not reasoning that this circumstance removes the guilt from him. This doesn't make it less terrible, but it makes it a different flavour of terrible. These kinds of flavours, who also happen to be precisely what justice and morals are based on. It's not exactly any worse than military generals ordering whide-spaced aerial strikes on cities during war to intimidate the enemy by willingly and decidedly killing obscene numbers of civillians. Except Rainier actually hates that he was responsible for what he never wanted to happen in the first place.

 

Like I said before, I can see why people would say that a murderer deserves death penalty to protect society from their ways, (since there's also no satisfaction for the family since they're all dead -not to mention how terrible and self-depricating I find that particular reasoning in general.) Except Rainier's ways never have been, not even during the very killing, of someone who thinks it's okay to kill a civilian. He stopped being selfish, blind, cowardly and greedy. He didn't "stop" being a murderer, cause he never was one, so to speak.

 

 

**rogue military operations within a regime to avoid certain required justifications are hardly uncommon enough to even be called "rogue"