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[ME_Fan]

So I just started a second character, the classic Male Human Two handed warrior of all the promo materials. Anyway, early on in the game there are several conversational choices in which you are able to explicitly state whether or not the Inquisitor is an Andrastrian. So far I've basically accepted being called the Herald, since I'm playing an Inquisitor who isn't fully sure of his faith, but also to get those approval points from Cassandra. What I'm curious about is whether or not there are any substantial repercussions or implications in the game at all going forwards. I ask since it is a choice in the keep, so I imagine it must have some significance. Also, is there any way to possibly change the inquisitor's view on religion and the maker later on? Given the revelation in the fade and learning that the mark isn't divine related.

[NickyBarb]

I do not think there are any repercussions.

You can establish belief or non-belief when talking to Mother Gisele after the fall of Haven.

Other then opening up different dialogue options. That is all I can think of that impacts the game. You can stay faithful even after learning about the Orb.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm not sure yet exactly which conversation leads to what dialogue. The question of whether you believe  you were chosen and the question of whether you believe in the Maker appear to be separate. I believe choosing them leads to a handful of different dialogue options later in the game, such as what to found your Inquisition on. There's also a conversation you have with Cassandra about the Chantry. If you tell her you are Andrastian earlier, and tell her that the Chantry has failed she will say "It is disheartening that a believe would say that." There's little notes like that around the game.

 

You can tell Corypheus you are the Maker's Chosen right before the fight. You can tell the Envy demon that wanting to become a god is the oldest conceit of man. I think one option allows you to forgive Ser Ruth in the name of Andraste. 

 

So far as I know, the only "repercussion" is that some of the "I don't believe" options are removed. Some conversations about whether you believe you are really the Herald of Andraste seem to have all options available not matter what you say, others don't.

[katerinafm]

Certain dialogues change. If you say you are Andrastian, certain characters will point it out. Also you get a special dialogue choice now and then. If you already picked that you believe a couple of times then I'm pretty sure the game has it set.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Near as I could tell, the first time Cassandra brings up providence to Chancellor Roderick gives a chance to say that you believe you were or weren't chosen. And in the next conversation you get to opportunity to decide whether you like the title the Herald of Andraste. This allows you to change your mind if you pick the reverse option, but from here I think the game is set. If you pick the neutral dialouge in both of these, the game seems to prompt you to make up your mind. I don't know what happens if you specifically try to avoid making a statement of your beliefs. 

 

For example, if you said you believe you are chosen, the Chantry mother in Val Royeaux asks "Do you truly believe you are the Herald of Andraste?". If you said you don't believe you are chosen she will ask you "If you are not the Herald of Andraste, then what are you?" If you haven't made a statement about whether you beleive you are chosen by the Maker, then she will specifically ask you if you are the Herald of not. If you answer yes or not, the game treats the rest of the dialogue the same as if you had picked an answer earlier. 

[Gervaise]

So far as I'm aware the critical decision is taken just after Haven.    There is a conversation with Mother Giselle with prompts that say that your response either establishes belief or it doesn't.    On my run where I took the "establishes belief" option I seem to recall that up to then I'd been pretty open minded about the whole thing but at that point decided to go for it (in my own mind not necessarily belief but going with what people seemed to want out of expediency - I was really an agnostic).

 

It did open up some interesting dialogue choices that I could not take as a non believer, such as forgiving people in Andraste's name.   I also loved being given the option to respond to Cory at the end that "I'm the Herald of Andraste".    However, whether you are a believer or not, the result of finding out about the orb and the Divine is just the same; you are advised to keep quiet about it by everyone.      Being a believer can also impact on certain companions.   Cassandra is an obvious one but oddly enough Sera also responds to it as well, I think because she is looking for certainty in the Herald and so appreciates it when you give it to her.

 

Word of advice though, don't go for the Chantry garden option unless you like hearing someone reciting the Chant every time you go to the war room.

[Rascoth]

I still can't understand this whole 'faithful' Inquisitor thing. Not plotwise, but just how it works in game. It seems you either believe in everything (Maker, you being a Herald) or not... Or I'm just blind and miss something.

 

My Inquisitor said straigh into everyone's face that she's not Herald. The only time I said anything about believing is when Cassandra asks you during your first conversation if you believe in a Maker. Well, my character believed in a Maker, but not the whole Herald thing. Yet, any conversation that had options which you could chose as non-believer... Well, those never appeared. 

Like in a Fade, when you met Justinia. If you don't believe, you have option to tell that you knew all along that it wasn't divine intervention, but your own actions saved you. Yet, said Inquisitor had no such option. Instead there was that 'It wasn't Andraste?!' line. My dear girl, you changed so quickly. One Fade trip and suddenly Andraste babysitted you?

That's why I pick neutral 'I don't know'. It seems to give you more options in conversations.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I actually like listening to the Chant of Light, but I feel like there were too many npcs around both home bases singing it at once. It gets pretty annoying hearing the same exact voice saying the same exact verse at the same time while interrupting each other.

 

Even I got tired of hearing "Oh Creator see me-Oh Creator see me kneel."

[nightscrawl]

I still can't understand this whole 'faithful' Inquisitor thing. Not plotwise, but just how it works in game. It seems you either believe in everything (Maker, you being a Herald) or not... Or I'm just blind and miss something.
 
My Inquisitor said straigh into everyone's face that she's not Herald. The only time I said anything about believing is when Cassandra asks you during your first conversation if you believe in a Maker. Well, my character believed in a Maker, but not the whole Herald thing. Yet, any conversation that had options which you could chose as non-believer... Well, those never appeared. 
Like in a Fade, when you met Justinia. If you don't believe, you have option to tell that you knew all along that it wasn't divine intervention, but your own actions saved you. Yet, said Inquisitor had no such option. Instead there was that 'It wasn't Andraste?!' line. My dear girl, you changed so quickly. One Fade trip and suddenly Andraste babysitted you?
That's why I pick neutral 'I don't know'. It seems to give you more options in conversations.

I didn't have a problem with the way things played out as you described. I play my 'faithful' (Trevelyan) Inquisitor as one who believes in the Maker and His bride Andraste, but is jaded by the Chantry as an institution due to the internecine politics he had to witness, and sometimes take part in, as part of the Trevelyan clan. My Inquisitor also finds the idea that he is anywhere near the level of Andraste to be absurd and always maintains that he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I also find it quite easy to play as a person struggling with their faith and role in the grand scheme of things.

 

The conversation you mention in the Fade can play out like so:

 

Inquisitor: So this was, what, an accident? A random ricochet in the middle of a fight?
Justinia-spirit: And if it was?
Inquisitor: If it was, then neither the Maker nor Andraste were in any way involved in this! I'm just...
Justinia-spirit: If you believe in the Maker, then you believe He made this world and everything in it, including your accident. And if you do not, then nothing has changed.

 

One of the most elaborate faith conversations you can have, with multiple paths, is with Mother Giselle after the Adamant mission. Here is how I play it out:

 

Giselle: She [Leliana] said that you spoke with a figure in the fade that seemed to be the soul of Divine Justinia. I suspect many of the faithful would like to know what Justinia told you.
Inquisitor: [1. I learned the truth] She helped me remember what happened at the Conclave. The Maker didn't give me the mark on my hand--I was struck in battle. And Andraste didn't send me: the figure everyone saw was Divine Justinia.
Giselle: So it is as you have always maintained. You must feel quite vindicated.
Inquisitor: [6. Quite the reverse, in fact.] I may not have believed, but part of me always hoped it was true... That I was the Herald of Andraste.
Giselle: Who is to say that you are not? Forge the mark. Forget the figure standing over you as you fell from the Fade. The people needed a sign that in this harsh and unforgiving world, there existed some reason to hope. And they found that in you.
Inquisitor: [1. That's changing definitions.] That isn't how it works. The evidence for me having some divine mission was proven false.
Giselle: This is the trouble with metaphors and the educated. A farmer cannot understand the truth of the Maker, so he learns that the Maker is a man, but greater. A mage learns the same thing, knows it to be simplistic, and feels clever for realizing it is not literally true. But a metaphor is not a lie. It is a tool. To help people understand something beyond them... and we need such a tool.
Inquisitor: [6. But what is the truth?] I don't need metaphors right now, with everything Corypheus is doing. I need the truth.
Giselle: Everyone says that, when their lives are difficult. Everyone looks for some secret message. You might look upon the face of the Maker Himself in a vision, but ultimately, even that would be just another metaphor. The truth is that He made this world, and He put us here to learn. That is all you can do.

 

My Inquisitor believes that the Maker is absent. He abandoned His children and left us to our own devices. Here comes the internal struggle: if the Maker has abandoned us, and that abandonment has allowed all manner of horrible things to happen (war, etc.) why should I think that He has suddenly decided to intervene now by sending me, of all people? What in the Void makes me so damned special?

 

There also comes a point where, if you hear something enough, you start to believe it is true. So is the case with the Herald of Andraste. Every single person you can question about it seems to believe it's true and offers their own reasons for thinking so. Varric suggests that all of the outlandish events you've lived through thus far have to mean something. Both Cassandra and Dorian say that "you are exactly what we needed, when we needed it." Dorian calls you "our bulwark against evil." That is powerful stuff. If you keep hearing that over and over again, and then learn the truth in the Fade, I think it's easy to question your faith and struggle with trying to understand the Maker's intentions, your role in everything, and all of that.

[Korva]

@nightscrawl: Well said, and much of that applies to my own Inquisitor as well.

 

It is a strange and unfortunate oversight that the writers never let either the PC or any NPCs point out that the "Herald" business is a breach of a central tenet of the Andrastian faith. That's the biggest gun in the arsenal of our detractors and enemies right there in the open, and it's not being used. And on a personal level, it's what my Inquisitor struggles with the most. Being saddled with the assumption that you have some kind of divine favor and mandate is a heavy enough burden, but when your faith insists that your god does not interfere, period, it becomes even heavier. The Maker doesn't interfere when a Blight comes, he didn't even interfere to save the one mortal who's had his favor since humanity originally squandered it. So why now, why me, isn't this heresy and only making it all worse?

 

I'm a RL atheist, but I really enjoy this theme of faith in this game for some reason, both in my own character and in the other characters who embody different aspects of belief and losing it. I wish they had fleshed it out further and given it more weight and nuance in the overall story.

[Gervaise]

That inherent contradiction in you being the Herald of Andraste is what bugged me too.   You actually have Leliana questioning what use the Maker is if he lets people like Justinia die (and by implication "instead of you") and yet she seems willing to accept you in the role of Herald, even if you straight out say you don't believe in the Maker.  

 

However, that contradiction has always been there.   Why are you praying to the Maker and thinking he will do something when your Chantry actually teaches that he has abandoned us?    At least back in Origins Leliana did say that she disagreed with that view, that she felt the Maker was still there in nature and the beauty to be found in the world.   There were a fair few conversations between Sebastian and other characters on the subject in DA2, particularly Fenris.

 

I suppose it also explains why the Chantry initially outright condemns you as heretics, because of the claims being made about the Herald.   Then as Leliana points out at the end, when Cory reveals himself and is the embodiment of everyone's worst nightmares, darkspawn and ancient Tevinter magister rolled into one, planning on conquering the world and demanding fealty as a god, I suppose it is hardly surprising that your success breeds faith in other people.     In a way you can see how the whole Andraste bandwagon got going and she even ended up getting fried, whereas the Herald both beats the bad guys and survives.     To be honest I think Morrigan got it spot on in the Arbor Wilds when she asks just whose name the faithful are invoking in battle and suggests the Maker or Andraste aren't the first ones to spring to mind.     

 

How much it impacts on your character is down to the sort of character they are and how much or little faith they had to begin with but it is heady stuff.   Mind you I've only played as an elf, who has their own set of beliefs shot down in flames, but those revelations also raised questions in my mind about everyone's beliefs.   I kept turning up stuff about Andraste that seemed to contradict what I knew of the Chant (subsequently confirmed in WoT2), which is why even my tentative "believer" was pretty sceptical at the end about gods in general.  

[XEternalXDreamsX]

I'm sorry if this doesn't add much. If you are a non-believer or on the fence while being made the Inquisitor, you can pick. "Because it's right." with good boost to approval all around and no disapproval.

[In Exile]

@nightscrawl: Well said, and much of that applies to my own Inquisitor as well.

It is a strange and unfortunate oversight that the writers never let either the PC or any NPCs point out that the "Herald" business is a breach of a central tenet of the Andrastian faith. That's the biggest gun in the arsenal of our detractors and enemies right there in the open, and it's not being used. And on a personal level, it's what my Inquisitor struggles with the most. Being saddled with the assumption that you have some kind of divine favor and mandate is a heavy enough burden, but when your faith insists that your god does not interfere, period, it becomes even heavier. The Maker doesn't interfere when a Blight comes, he didn't even interfere to save the one mortal who's had his favor since humanity originally squandered it. So why now, why me, isn't this heresy and only making it all worse?

I'm a RL atheist, but I really enjoy this theme of faith in this game for some reason, both in my own character and in the other characters who embody different aspects of belief and losing it. I wish they had fleshed it out further and given it more weight and nuance in the overall story.

The problem is that the writers can't keep straight that this is not an expy of Christianity and an interventionist god. You have dialogue in DA2 where the Grand Cleric says the Maker sent the HOF which is just pure heresy.

[King Killoth]

I have had a few playthrews that where faithful Inquisitors and I found them to be kinda blind they take everything as divine intervention even when proven wrong. thats why my Cannon Inquisitor is a qunari that dose not believe in any gods only in powerful magic. that order needs to be restored and that the chanty sucked.

[SwobyJ]

The problem is that the writers can't keep straight that this is not an expy of Christianity and an interventionist god. You have dialogue in DA2 where the Grand Cleric says the Maker sent the HOF which is just pure heresy.

 

I more had the impression that this was always a sort of breaking point within the Chantry. One believes the Maker is absent, until they don't. It may be heretical, but people still gravitate towards hoping the Maker still cares and still intervenes.

 

It isn't as drastic as 'HERETIC! BURN!'. but its still recognized as a heresy that must be addressed/restricted. Thing is, the Chantry never knows *exactly* what its views are. There's the official line (that the Maker will never intervene in any way until the Chant is everywhere), but there's also the stories and tone that would emotionally give people hope that the Maker does intervene, if only to place certain people in certain ways, and to bring the faithful still to his side (technically a form of intervention). Though yes, the more you believe that someone is 'sent' by the Maker, the more heretical you are. There is a tolerance for this, however, and people are allowed a degree of expression of their personal beliefs. It just doesn't typically change doctrine.

 

I always felt that DAI lets us take out place. We can actually be a Chantry follower while not thinking we're the Herald, while seeing that the Chantry is being crippled and needing assistance, whether it prefers it or not. It may be a strained line of choices, but its allowed.

 

Whatever your stance on something, Bioware will look forward to challenging it sometimes at some points. Its just what they do. DAI may have its 'trend' in one or a few directions, but Bioware typically allows at least a little more than that, and future games may go in that other direction.

 

I'm not thinking we'll see very Pro-Chantry or even Pro-Maker content in the next game, but that's just me. But for now, yes, we get to play with concepts of the Maker, the Chantry's doctrine on him, and how one could react with being a (semi-)messiah figure growing within or aside from the church-ahem-Chantry. Whether it is heretical ('antichrist') or a empowerment ('christ follower') or a resurrection of the 'original' intent of the Chantry ('fulfillment of christ'). Or none of the above, whatever. Take your stance.

[Gervaise]

Does anyone know what you get in the Keep (if you can actually get it) if you don't opt for accepting the title of Herald or even the role of Inquisitor.    I've just noticed that there is a bit in the Keep relating to that with it indicated that I accepted the role of Herald, which I don't actually ever remember doing and thought I had rejected by not accepting it after Haven.   Then another concerning accepting the role of Inquisitor.    The alternative is "Hidden", so I don't know what it is.    Was this something they were originally going to allow but thought better of?    Or do you have to choose a certain dialogue?

[Korva]

However, that contradiction has always been there.   Why are you praying to the Maker and thinking he will do something when your Chantry actually teaches that he has abandoned us?

 
Good point. There's the vague promise that once the Chant spreads to the whole world, he may change his mind, but until that point, asking for anything is kind of pointless. As a nonbeliever myself, I'm kind of speculating here, but I guess if deities are how people try to make sense of death and other terrifying facts of existence, people don't really want to believe that their deity doesn't give a whit or actively despises them? Because that makes the whole thing even more scary and you might as well not bother with inventing such a faith in the first place if there's really nothing you can hope for.
 

At least back in Origins Leliana did say that she disagreed with that view, that she felt the Maker was still there in nature and the beauty to be found in the world.   There were a fair few conversations between Sebastian and other characters on the subject in DA2, particularly Fenris.

 
I haven't played DA2, but I remember not being impressed with Leliana's stance on faith in Origins because it felt a bit childish, and Inquisition didn't change that. Basically, "I know better than the Chant because I need to feel loved and special". Brilliant, rock-solid theology from a potential new Divine, that.
 

In a way you can see how the whole Andraste bandwagon got going and she even ended up getting fried, whereas the Herald both beats the bad guys and survives.

 
Oh yes, even considering the unfortunately rushed nature of many plot elements, the Herald/Inquisitor is a prime example of people latching on to something because they desperately need someone to believe in ... even when the object of their faith engages in almost "Life of Brian"-like denial.
 
That said, I really hope there isn't any foreshadowing in the way that some people, including Mother Giselle and Vivenne, liken us to Andraste. Bioware kind of needs to destroy the Inquisition and the Inquisitor to make room for the next recyclable hero-du-jour. The dangers of corruption are another big theme in Inquisition, too, so I could easily see the writers going full circle on the Andraste theme and bringing everything we built down from within through jealousy, corruption and betrayal.
 

I'm sorry if this doesn't add much. If you are a non-believer or on the fence while being made the Inquisitor, you can pick. "Because it's right." with good boost to approval all around and no disapproval.

 
I do wish being faithful didn't lock you out of that option, for those believers who don't want to make non-Andrastians feel excluded or even frightened by the notion of an explicitly religious and militant organization.

 

I more had the impression that this was always a sort of breaking point within the Chantry. One believes the Maker is absent, until they don't. It may be heretical, but people still gravitate towards hoping the Maker still cares and still intervenes.

 

I would have liked for that to be presented as a point of contention around which different sects/opinions have formed. It would give the Chantry more nuance and make it less monolithic. Unfortunately, it isn't really set up that way. We only have that basic tenet of an absent deity and a bunch of characters who constantly but inexplicably ignore that tenet. No attempt (that I recall) is ever made to reconcile or even acknowledge this, it's as if the people who wrote these characters didn't know or flat-out ignored such a crucial aspect of the faith. And that is a shame.

 

It wouldn't have been difficult to do this "properly", either. Given how frank Mother Giselle is about the fact that certain aspects of the Chantry are based on politics instead of Andraste's actual words, it would have been easy to introduce a non-canonical Canticle or three in which the Maker is not presented as an uncaring, absent deity. Have them be hotly debated, occasionally fiercely opposed by the powers-that-be, but credible and popular and needed (by the believers who crave hope) enough that they could not be denied or wiped out altogether. That way all these characters including our protagonist could have actual theological debates about the subject itself and, by extension, about whether or not the "Herald" might be legitimate or heretical.