93 réponses à ce sujet

[Bad King]

Meh... im not sure why a Dalish Inq would continue to believe, the temple pretty much shows how wrong their beliefs are, & how the creators were just powerful spirits/demons when Flemeth shows up afterwards

 

The creators are just powerful spirits/demons? Source or it didn't happen. Not even Solas really knows what the creators were/are, he merely hypothesises that they may have been powerful mages, spirits or something else entirely. What has certainly been established is that they actually exist, which is more than can be said for the Andrastian version of the Maker (with the Canticle of Threnodies even being contradicted by Corypheus' eyewitness testimony). 

[raging_monkey]

3 elven debate threads within one week

[dgcatanisiri]

Meh... im not sure why a Dalish Inq would continue to believe, the temple pretty much shows how wrong their beliefs are, & how the creators were just powerful spirits/demons when Flemeth shows up afterwards

 

It's still the foundation of their beliefs and attitudes, the things they were raised believing in. Even if they were willing to give up those beliefs, doing so would also mean they'd never be accepted back home with their clan, their family and friends. Giving up on the Creators doesn't just mean giving up beliefs that have been declared false by Abelas, it also means giving up the relationships with the people they've cared about.

[fhs33721]

A yes I remember the time when Sera claimed the temple of Mythal was just demon whorship and then Flemeth showed up and talked suspicious things about justice and vengeance that reminded me highly of another (in)famous apostate. Then we ate cookies on the roof and went to the exalted plains to break into an elven tomb because there was a mosaic part in there (and probably also spiders). The dalish there were still greatful for all the giant-bear a*ses I brought them thouhg so everything turned out alright.

Fun times.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

It's still the foundation of their beliefs and attitudes, the things they were raised believing in. Even if they were willing to give up those beliefs, doing so would also mean they'd never be accepted back home with their clan, their family and friends. Giving up on the Creators doesn't just mean giving up beliefs that have been declared false by Abelas, it also means giving up the relationships with the people they've cared about.

I doubt the Dalish Inq's clan would abandon them, their either dead or allies of the inquisition by then, only people id say would have a major problem are other clans & id guess alot of them would hate the inquisitor anyway for leading a human made organisation

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The whole world of Thedas is racist ...

 

I don't see why she stand out . Assuming I believe the racist part wich I don't . 

 

Dalish call city elf flat ear...

 

city elf call humans Shem

 

and so on...

 

Yeah but that's examples of racism that exist within societies at large, not individuals. It's one thing to say that Dalish Elves look down on City Elves, but does Merrill specifically ever call Fenris a flat ear? Does she say she can't be with Hawke if they believes in god that her homeland was crushed in the name of? Orlais is guilty of systemic racism. But does Leliana ever call anyone a knife ear? 

 

I'm pretty sure no other love interest tells you they can't be with you if you hold a certain religion important.

 

The Inquisitor wouldn't even have been asking her to believe something, she would have only been asking her to be OK with somebody else believing it.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Meh... im not sure why a Dalish Inq would continue to believe, the temple pretty much shows how wrong their beliefs are, & how the creators were just powerful spirits/demons when Flemeth shows up afterwards

 

Neither the Temple of Mythal nor Flemeth reveal exactly what the Creators are. Flemeth, for her part, seems to imply that Mythal is a god. "But what was Mythal? A legend given name and called a god, or something more?"

[Bad King]

Neither the Temple of Mythal nor Flemeth reveal exactly what the Creators are. Flemeth, for her part, seems to imply that Mythal is a god. "But what was Mythal? A legend given name and called a god, or something more?"

 

Whatever they are, the creators are uniquely powerful entities that appear to have effected large changes to the world and elven culture. Whatever one might think of them, they certainly fall under the polytheistic definition of gods.

[Sunnie]

They've left it a bit ambiguous regarding Mythal/Flemeth. However, we know who Solas really is and he doesn't look or act like a god, more like an ancient elven leader who just woke up from a long sleep and found his orb of power was empty. Of course we really don't know yet what the truth is about Solas, the stinger was just that. My guess is we will find out in the last DLC for DAI.

[Bowie Hawkins]

Unfortunately, if you're an elf, you're very much out of luck. No middle-ground whatsoever. You have to decide between either keeping the romance or maintaining your beliefs/values.

 

That's the same choice she's being forced to make, as it happens.

[AlexiaRevan]

Yeah but that's examples of racism that exist within societies at large, not individuals. It's one thing to say that Dalish Elves look down on City Elves, but does Merrill specifically ever call Fenris a flat ear? Does she say she can't be with Hawke if they believes in god that her homeland was crushed in the name of? Orlais is guilty of systemic racism. But does Leliana ever call anyone a knife ear? 

 

I'm pretty sure no other love interest tells you they can't be with you if you hold a certain religion important.

 

The Inquisitor wouldn't even have been asking her to believe something, she would have only been asking her to be OK with somebody else believing it.

You tell me...

 

Do you really think if in DAO you asked Leliana to drop the Maker..she would still romance the warden ?? 

 

Do you really think if you decided to ask Morrigan to abide by the world rules and leave her shack and go to a circle while you play Templar , she would do it ?? 

 

And DA2 wasn't about Merril religion but about the feud between Templar and Mages . So ask yourself this : Do you really think Merril would have romanced Hawke if he turned her to Meredith for her own Good and help with her obsession of the mirror ? 

 

So no . The answer depand on the person . It isn't just about race , Leliana could ditch the warden over the Maker just like fenris would ditch you if he think you are using too much blood magic or letting slaver goes away . 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

You tell me...

 

Do you really think if in DAO you asked Leliana to drop the Maker..she would still romance the warden ?? 

 

Do you really think if you decided to ask Morrigan to abide by the world rules and leave her shack and go to a circle while you play Templar , she would do it ?? 

 

And DA2 wasn't about Merril religion but about the feud between Templar and Mages . So ask yourself this : Do you really think Merril would have romanced Hawke if he turned her to Meredith for her own Good and help with her obsession of the mirror ? 

 

So no . The answer depand on the person . It isn't just about race , Leliana could ditch the warden over the Maker just like fenris would ditch you if he think you are using too much blood magic or letting slaver goes away . 

 

But in all those scenarios they aren't asking you (the player character) to change, you would be asking them to stop being who they are and change for you. That's what Sera is doing to the Inquisitor. That's what I think is the unreasonable part. Believing in the Creators or even just the importance of the history of the temple isn't asking Sera to change herself.

[AlexiaRevan]

But in all those scenarios they aren't asking you (the player character) to change, you would be asking them to stop being who they are and change for you. That's what Sera is doing to the Inquisitor. That's what I think is the unreasonable part. Believing in the Creators or even just the importance of the history of the temple isn't asking Sera to change herself.

Look back on the dialogue on DAO , you had to be friendly with everyone . If you weren't (and without using Gift)...they eventually lose approval and get mad at you . 

 

And I don't think it is . It isn't a crime to ask the person you fall in love with to love you more then any deity they believe in . 

 

Sera care about the peoples in general . Maybe its the fear of losing the Inquisitor..I don't know . 

 

In a world where there are holes in the Sky that nobody know about...everyone dying left and right....and she freak out . So Its normal . The event in DAI shake one beliefs or lack of it . She tell you she wanna see for herself what is true or not....

[Bowie Hawkins]

She's using the name of a race to describe what she sees as an inherently negative quality.

 

She's reacting to the racism the Dalish have had toward City elves, and to that which people like Solas telling her that she's the furthest from what she's supposed to be did as well. They're the ones who told her she wasn't enough of an elf for them to approve of her, after all.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

 

Look back on the dialogue on DAO , you had to be friendly with everyone . If you weren't (and without using Gift)...they eventually lose approval and get mad at you . 

 

But do they use racial slurs or use the names of the race you are to describe and insulting quality? They get angry at you for your deeds, not what you are. 

 

And I don't think it is . It isn't a crime to ask the person you fall in love with to love you more then any deity they believe in . 

 

She's the only one saying you can't care about both. I think it's absolutely unfair to demand the person you love act as if what matters to them doesn't matter. She's saying that you as you are aren't good enough for her. Maybe it isn't unreasonable to ask someone to love you more than their religion. But isn't it less unreasonable to ask the person you fall in love with to love you more than they hate the fact that you have an interest in history? Sera was also doing more by asking you to choose between them. 

 

To use a slightly less controversial example - I absolutely believe it's reasonable to want your spouse to love you more than their country. But I don't think it's reasonable to demand your spouse renounce all ties to their nation in order to be with you.

 

She's reacting to the racism the Dalish have had toward City elves, and to that which people like Solas telling her that she's the furthest from what she's supposed to be did as well. They're the ones who told her she wasn't enough of an elf for them to approve of her, after all.

 

I haven't seen the rooftop scene all the way through but doesn't she basically say she hated alienage culture too? She says "most elves" she knows are too elfy. Most elves in general are city elves, and surely most elves she runs into are city elves. She certainly doesn't like to identify as an elf like City Elves do, nor does she seem to feel any specific kinship towards city elves or their hardships whatsoever.

[BraveVesperia]

She's using the name of a race to describe what she sees as an inherently negative quality. If I said I was glad that my friend's personality wasn't too black, or that thankfully his or her behavior isn't too Mexian, I would think I'd be considered racist. Regardless of what I defined being "black" or "Mexicany" as. And probably with good reason.

I think she uses the term 'elfy' specifically because Dalish elves consider themselves 'true elves' and therefore superior. Sort of like she's trying to flip their own terminology back on them.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Oh. This conversation again.

 

I think calling Sera racist is facile and misses the nuance of her character. She doesn't like "elfiness" not because she doesn't like elves. You can see her reaction to the slaughter of elven servants servants at Halamshiral for evidence of that, and also despite her reservations she will enter into a relationship with an elf. I can't see how these are the actions of a racist.

 

When she talks about "elfiness" she's talking about hanging on to what she sees as a failed culture which belongs in the past, not about physically being an elf.  She doesn't like holding on to stories of past Elven culture as a way to be different from everyone else, be that in the case of the Dalish or the case of the Vehnadal in alienages. She wants everyone to be treated the same, which is why she supports all the oppressed, not just the elves, and she sees any form elvish separatism as being the opposite of what is needed for that to happen. She thinks that elves need to get their heads out of the past and accept the dominant culture.

 

Now you can call her view naive, you can say that she's wrong and cultural diversity should be embraced, and I'd probably agree. What I can't agree on is that she's racist, because I don't think that her motivations come from a standpoint of hating elves themselves. She hates practices that celebrate elven culture because they emphasise elven difference which in her view is a barrier to elves being treated equally. She feels that concentrating on past glories is the reason why elves get stuck in alienages or forced to roam the wilderness hiding from humans, and she wants elves to get away from that.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Neither the Temple of Mythal nor Flemeth reveal exactly what the Creators are. Flemeth, for her part, seems to imply that Mythal is a god. "But what was Mythal? A legend given name and called a god, or something more?"

Seems obvious that Mythal is a spirit at best, Flemeth called for help & the spirit/demon answered & then possessed her for centuries

[Bad King]

She's reacting to the racism the Dalish have had toward City elves, and to that which people like Solas telling her that she's the furthest from what she's supposed to be did as well. They're the ones who told her she wasn't enough of an elf for them to approve of her, after all.

 

I doubt it: Sera likely disdains most city elves as they strive to retain aspects of their elven culture in Alienages. She has very little in common with them due to her upbringing in a human household. So yeah, she's a bigot.

[Bad King]

Seems obvious that Mythal is a spirit at best, Flemeth called for help & the spirit/demon answered & then possessed her for centuries

 

Not really. The Ancient Elves were expert mages and scholars with a highly developed understanding of spirits, so a being that they choose to worship would have to be something rather extraordinary. Both Ancient Elven and Dalish lore imply that the creators were highly creative beings that transformed the world with new ideas. Spirits meanwhile lack creativity and their very existence is defined by their constant attempts to copy what they see in the mortal world - it's why according to the Chant the Maker was disappointed with them. So Mythal = a spirit is a dubious assumption in my view.

 

Also, the story that Flemeth is possessed by a demon is merely a folk tale rather than a detailed account of her life: it's the way she's been interpreted by history which is probably very different to the reality of the situation.

[YourFunnyUncle]

I doubt it: Sera likely disdains most city elves as they strive to retain aspects of their elven culture in Alienages. She has very little in common with them due to her upbringing in a human household. So yeah, she's a bigot.

According to World of Thedas, she was "likely at the alienage of Denerim as an infant" before moving into Lady Emmald's Household where she "spent some years", and she says as much in conversation. Added to that she never claimed her inheritance when Lady Emmald died, which was "well before the Blight" so she was then left on her own. The blight was 11 years before Inquisition, and I'd put her in her early twenties at the oldest, so she clearly spent a large part of her childhood fending for herself. Her time in a human household is just a collection of distant childhood memories to her.

 

I do think that her childhood experiences make her quite unique among elves, but it's more complex than just being raised by a human noblewoman, as that was only a fraction of her childhood. She has experience of alienage life, being in a noble household and surviving on the streets.

[Bad King]

According to World of Thedas, she was "likely at the alienage of Denerim as an infant" before moving into Lady Emmald's Household where she "spent some years", and she says as much in conversation. Added to that she never claimed her inheritance when Lady Emmald died, which was "well before the Blight" so she was then left on her own. The blight was 11 years before Inquisition, and I'd put her in her early twenties at the oldest, so she clearly spent a large part of her childhood fending for herself. Her time in a human household is just a collection of distant childhood memories to her.

 

I do think that her childhood experiences make her quite unique among elves, but it's more complex than just being raised by a human noblewoman, as that was only a fraction of her childhood. She has experience of alienage life, being in a noble household and surviving on the streets.

 

Yeah, I realise that she spent her first few years (when very young) fending for herself, but from her attitude towards elven culture, it seems likely to me that it was her time living with her human patron that had a greater effect on her personality. Alienage elves tend to value kinship, family and maintaining a separate elven identity and culture and Sera is someone who shuns elven culture and any feeling of kinship with other elves. She's very different to the majority of city elves that we've met or heard of in Dragon Age, and most of this probably comes down to her atypical upbringing, though she may have always been someone who didn't fit in when amongst other elves.

[Heathen Oxman]

Meh

She's worth more to me then dead oaths on pretenders, more then some culture some inaccurate and self absorbed it's a joke.

It's a pity you can't get those tattoos burnt off or something as a symbolic mark of stepping past the childish and naive beliefs of her people.

 

Well, if you're a female elf and romance Solas, you can (and I certainly did).

[Bowie Hawkins]

I doubt it: Sera likely disdains most city elves as they strive to retain aspects of their elven culture in Alienages. She has very little in common with them due to her upbringing in a human household. So yeah, she's a bigot.

 

She sees that as trying to hold onto a dead culture rather than trying to build a new one, and even if that counted as bigotry it wouldn't be a fraction as much of that as the Dalish calling City elves "flat ears" and treating them the way Velanna did those two City elves in Awakenings.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm not saying Sera is a racist in the same way as Vaughn or even Gaspard, but she uses a lot of bigoted language and she is apparently utterly incapable of seeing beyond the very negative stereotypes that she has about elves, among other peoples.

 

An average City Elf angrily reacting to the bigotry of a Dalish Elf would be angry that they were questioned on their elvenness because City Elves value being elves as well. There reaction would be something like "Our people are just as much elves as you are, if not more." Sera however believes that "being elven" is inherently negative and dislikes even using it as part of her identity. So she should dislike the City Elves as much as the Dalish because they value the same nebulous quality she hates. Basically she would have contempt for the City Elves for the exact opposite reason Velanna would. I'm not sure that makes it any better though. And even if it did, Velanna is a bigoted murderess that was exiled from her clan for being too xenophobic, not exactly setting the bar high there.