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[Jedi Master of Orion]

Seems obvious that Mythal is a spirit at best, Flemeth called for help & the spirit/demon answered & then possessed her for centuries

 

That is Supposition. Mythal doesn't seem to behave in the same way spirits do since Abelas says she was slain, yet somehow was still intact enough to merge with Flemeth, instead of being reborn as something new like Solas said his friend would be. Fenris and Anders are both pretty knowledgeable about spirits and possession and both of them are baffled when they see Flemeth.

[Bad King]

She sees that as trying to hold onto a dead culture rather than trying to build a new one, and even if that counted as bigotry it wouldn't be a fraction as much of that as the Dalish calling City elves "flat ears" and treating them the way Velanna did those two City elves in Awakenings.

 

Sera's assumption that elven culture is dead is further proof that she's a bigot I'm afraid and echoes what many bigots in the real world have said of minority cultures that they want eradicated in the name of "progress". Velanna can hardly be used as a representative of all Dalish considering her own clan disdain her for her extremism just as Sera can't be used as a representative for the city elves (who she has little in common with). Velanna and Sera in fact hold remarkably similar attitudes even if their opinions are on different extremes. One of the main differences is that Velanna's character actually develops and she changes her views after they're challenged by the events of Awakening (with her saving a human village as the climax of her development). Sera meanwhile doesn't appear to alter any of her prejudices throughout Inquisition and I barely even noticed her character develop at any point during or after the game.

[AlexiaRevan]

I'm not saying Sera is a racist in the same way as Vaughn or even Gaspard, but she uses a lot of bigoted language and she is apparently utterly incapable of seeing beyond the very negative stereotypes that she has about elves, among other peoples.

 

An average City Elf angrily reacting to the bigotry of a Dalish Elf would be angry that they were questioned on their elvenness because City Elves value being elves as well. There reaction would be something like "Our people are just as much elves as you are, if not more." Sera however believes that "being elven" is inherently negative and dislikes even using it as part of her identity. So she should dislike the City Elves as much as the Dalish because they value the same nebulous quality she hates. Basically she would have contempt for the City Elves for the exact opposite reason Velanna would. I'm not sure that makes it any better though. And even if it did, Velanna is a bigoted murderess that was exiled from her clan for being too xenophobic, not exactly setting the bar high there.

it isn't like elves have a good reputation to begin with . 

 

And really ? You don't like that she diss or think bad about being an elve..but here you are trying to change her!! 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

it isn't like elves have a good reputation to begin with . 

 

And really ? You don't like that she diss or think bad about being an elve..but here you are trying to change her!! 

 

So a bigot asking a person to change for them is the same as asking a person to stop acting bigoted?

[AlexiaRevan]

So a bigot asking a person to change for them is the same as asking a person to stop acting bigoted?

That your opinion that she is bigoted . I accept sera as she is and I don't see her racist or watever you may come with . 

 

I just don't see what the fuss is about . In previous RPG you could take evil Aligned companions like Edwin and Viconia and nobody tried to change them and be Goodie goodie . 

 

Heck..there are worse then sera 'Mocking' elfs...you got Solas who is responsible for all the mess in the game and acting like he care and not saying a thing ! BW killed peoples and the whole time he is an Impostor ! where are the thread complaining about these 2 making me lose my innocences ? 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm not saying she's a monster or anything, or that you were in some way wrong to like the character or complete her romance arc or anything. Nor that other people who do bad things shouldn't be condemned, but they aren't really relevant to the point I'm trying to make here. 

 

But if you were curious, in my first world state: I left Sten behind in Redcliffe, killed Zevran (eventually), tried (and failed) to bring Velanna to justice, killed Anders, and left ultimately left Blackwall in his cell in Val Royeaux. Sera, by contrast, I recruited and let stay with me the whole time until the end. But she does sometimes behave in a certain way that I think is wrong. And I think that includes the ultimatum she gave the romanced Inquisitor about the Temple of Mythal. It's fine if some people don't have a problem dealing with that, but for others Inquisitors (especially elves) I don't think there's anything unreasonable about not being able to deal with her attitude about this. 

[AlexiaRevan]

And thats your issue . I romanced Sera with a Qunari , and I don't care about Mythal and all that elves stuff . 

 

Even if I brough my Dalish elf or my city elf from DAO in DAI...my opinion wouldn't change . I still don't care for an Empire that is long gone . And I still don't care for Elven Gods that are silent or the Lore or watever the Dalish keep obsessing over . My opinion has always been 'Take care of the now present and build a new ' . 

 

And there is a difference between 'I wish the dialogue during what I considere an important moment in my elf charachter and my relationship with sera had more in depth options' and 'She is bigoted and racist cose of the last talk I had with her' ...

 

You should ask the writers why they made that last choice in that manner . 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

If neither you or your character care about the Elven Gods or the Dalish Religion then obviously it wouldn't matter to you that Sera doesn't either. But I think Sera is being unreasonable by demanding that anybody who does care about them must stop or she can't be with them. 

 

The way the dialogue is with Sera kind of makes it clear that more in depth options aren't the problem. Sera doesn't care if you can reconcile the elven gods with anything. If it is important to you, she explicitly can't accept it.

[AlexiaRevan]

yeah but considering you can romance Sera as qunari , Dwarf and Human and none of the players who played with these made this 'scene' a big deal...tell you something no ? 

[AresKeith]

I think she uses the term 'elfy' specifically because Dalish elves consider themselves 'true elves' and therefore superior. Sort of like she's trying to flip their own terminology back on them.

 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

yeah but considering you can romance Sera as qunari , Dwarf and Human and none of the players who played with these made this 'scene' a big deal...tell you something no ? 

 

I'm honestly not sure what you are getting at here. Why would a human, dwarf or qunari care about the elven religion?

[Bowie Hawkins]

Sera however believes that "being elven" is inherently negative and dislikes even using it as part of her identity. So she should dislike the City Elves as much as the Dalish because they value the same nebulous quality she hates. Basically she would have contempt for the City Elves for the exact opposite reason Velanna would. I'm not sure that makes it any better though. And even if it did, Velanna is a bigoted murderess that was exiled from her clan for being too xenophobic, not exactly setting the bar high there.

 

No, Sera has had people telling her for years that she's not enough of an elf because she doesn't do things exactly the way that they think an elf should behave (like when Solas tells her that she's the furthest from what she should be), and Velanna's abuse of the City elves is that exact sort of bigotry. 

 

Sera's assumption that elven culture is dead is further proof that she's a bigot I'm afraid and echoes what many bigots in the real world have said of minority cultures that they want eradicated in the name of "progress". 

 

The "dead culture" in question is the culture of Arlathan, which was destroyed centuries ago and which modern elves have at best infinitessimal scraps of. Calling it a dead culture isn't bigotry; it's acknowledging what Origins, Witch Hunt, Dragon Age 2, and Inquisition have all told us.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

 

No, Sera has had people telling her for years that she's not enough of an elf because she doesn't do things exactly the way that they think an elf should behave (like when Solas tells her that she's the furthest from what she should be), and Velanna's abuse of the City elves is that exact sort of bigotry. 

 

Yeah but City Elves value the notion of being "elven" as well. And she sees being "like an elf" to be a bad thing to be. I don't think that really makes it any better. Accusing someone of not being elven enough or being too elven are both wrong. I've also never believed that being a victim of prejudice means it is OK if you develop it. It might make it more understandable in some cases, but it doesn't make it right. 

[Bad King]

The "dead culture" in question is the culture of Arlathan, which was destroyed centuries ago and which modern elves have at best infinitessimal scraps of. Calling it a dead culture isn't bigotry; it's acknowledging what Origins, Witch Hunt, Dragon Age 2, and Inquisition have all told us.

 

The Dalish practice a form of culture which preserves and derives itself from aspects of Arlathan culture while also introducing new ideas, innovations and adaptations. They retain many aspects of elven vocabulary (e.g Lavellan can understand Solas' conversation with his spirit friend), culture (such as the keeping of Halla and the preservation of elven folk tales) and religion while also living in an egalitarian manner, using unique magic, living in aravels and crafting advanced ironwood technology. The City Elves meanwhile live more similarly to humans but nevertheless bear a separate social structure with Hahrens, grow Vhenadahl trees (themselves the centres of the community's celebrations and rituals), use elven vocabulary and preserve a sense of community. These are living cultures that bring a sense of identity to their people and diversity (in cultural practices, knowledge and ontologies) to the world, and, in my view (and probably the view of the vast majority of elves) they are far more preferable than the alternative: living as an inferior in a human slum subject to racism and persecution and lacking any developed form of community.

 

These are living cultures, and Sera's insistence that they're dead (despite never really engaging in these cultures or attempting to properly analyse them) is a form of bigotry.

[Master Warder Z_]

Your preference aside doesn't make elven culture any less of a corpse.

[Bowie Hawkins]

Yeah but City Elves value the notion of being "elven" as well. And she sees being "like an elf" to be a bad thing to be. I

 

No, what she sees as a bad thing to be is somebody who tells people that they're bad and wrong for not being elfy enough the way people have been telling her that for years before Inquisition starts.

 

The Dalish practice a form of culture which preserves and derives itself from aspects of Arlathan culture while also introducing new ideas, innovations and adaptations. They retain many aspects of elven vocabulary (e.g Lavellan can understand Solas' conversation with his spirit friend), culture (such as the keeping of Halla and the preservation of elven folk tales) and religion while also living in an egalitarian manner, using unique magic, living in aravels and crafting advanced ironwood technology. The City Elves meanwhile live more similarly to humans but nevertheless bear a separate social structure with Hahrens, grow Vhenadahl trees (themselves the centres of the community's celebrations and rituals), use elven vocabulary and preserve a sense of community. These are living cultures that bring a sense of identity to their people and diversity (in cultural practices, knowledge and ontologies) to the world, and, in my view (and probably the view of the vast majority of elves) they are far more preferable than the alternative: living as an inferior in a human slum subject to racism and persecution and lacking any developed form of community.

 

The Dalish and City elves are both trying to build a culture around the few scraps of Arlathan that they can remember, rather than trying to create something truly new. Trying to change the past rather than rule this day, to put it as the song about Sera does.

[Master Warder Z_]

Honestly I look at it thusly.

Elves must form accord with humanity as a defeated party, they need to acknowledge history and move past it.

Cooperation and collaboration start with a single step.

No uprising, no cultural no movement simply the adoption of a new perspective.

The elves are long overdue one.

I honestly think many of the human nations would find it refreshing.

[Bowie Hawkins]

Elves must form accord with humanity as a defeated party, they need to acknowledge history and move past it.

 

In all fairness, that might be easier if humanity would ever acknowledge history and make any real amends for what it did.

[Master Warder Z_]

In all fairness, that might be easier if humanity would ever acknowledge history and make any real amends for what it did.

That is as likely as Quisling being regarded as anything but synonymous with betrayal.

The humans like the elves involved are long dead.

Their agendas, politics, schemes, they are dead.

There is nothing connecting either race beyond history. Which is the very thing that needs to be turned on it's head.

[Bad King]

The Dalish and City elves are both trying to build a culture around the few scraps of Arlathan that they can remember, rather than trying to create something truly new. Trying to change the past rather than rule this day, to put it as the song about Sera does.

 

According to Solas, Dalish culture is highly adaptable which implies that they are continually generating new ideas from a different foundation (what they've preserved from old elven culture) to humans. As the Dalish hunter Taniel notes in the codex:

 

The keeper says that one day the Dalish will find a home that we can call our own. But why? Why should we tie ourselves to stone constructions like the humans and the dwarves? What is wrong with the life we have now? We owe nothing to anyone, we have no master but ourselves, and we go where the halla and the gods take us. There is nothing more wonderful than sitting on an aravel as it flies through the forest, pulled by our halla. We are truly free, for the first time in our people's history. Why should we change this?

 

Alienage culture is less different from human culture than Dalish culture is but nevertheless is distinct and continues to live on, bringing a little purpose, identity and sense of community to the oppressed people that engage in it.

[Bowie Hawkins]

The humans like the elves involved are long dead.

Their agendas, politics, schemes, they are dead.

 

The humans that pen the City elves up in alienages and those who persecute them and/or the Dalish are still alive, as are their agendas, politics, and schemes (like the ones that resulted in all those elven servants being murdered in the palace during the Inquisitor's visit to Empress Celene's ball, for example).

[AlexiaRevan]

The humans that pen the City elves up in alienages and those who persecute them and/or the Dalish are still alive, as are their agendas, politics, and schemes (like the ones that resulted in all those elven servants being murdered in the palace during the Inquisitor's visit to Empress Celene's ball, for example).

while I agree with you , I don't see how change can happen without tearing down human society . Cose Elve like the Tranquil are money making . 

 

But I do believe that if the dalish helped to get city elf out of aliange...it would help . Or it would be a start . But most city elf think the dalish are a Myth (whose fault ?)...and the Dalish while accept any city elf...they don't go out of their way to help them . 

 

I recommand the Serie Genephorge , where you can really see what an oppressed faction can really do when they want freedom . And how much risk they are willing to take when they want it badly . 

[Master Warder Z_]

The humans that pen the City elves up in alienages and those who persecute them and/or the Dalish are still alive, as are their agendas, politics, and schemes (like the ones that resulted in all those elven servants being murdered in the palace during the Inquisitor's visit to Empress Celene's ball, for example).

The elves as they stand now are still foreign, still outside humanity.

Some are even actively hostile, the environment that exists in Thedas cannot be overcome by that.

For example.

Those elves in the palace died because of a elf.

Radical change isn't the path to cooperation, it's merely inflaming the situation. You cannot play as human as a elf without being human.

Only until the people are one in the same will this fade; that's my point.

You want equality? The elves need to become human.

Not only in rationality, culture or nationality but blood.

[Master Warder Z_]

It's the final arbiter, the final divider.

Uniformity isn't popular but it stamps off differences that divide.

[AlexiaRevan]

It's the final arbiter, the final divider.

Uniformity isn't popular but it stamps off differences that divide.

Bow to the chantry ? No way lol