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[Majestic Jazz]

Ugh another of these threads. Look, DAI was the first instance where we have an expansive setting to literally play in. The devs are probably taking into account the fetch quests feedback to generate more expansive sidequests. In fact, you can consider the companion quests to be sidequests of a sort. Just like ME2 or ME3. Heck, even the DLC can be considered sidequests.

 

As for the Witcher, they came out later than DAI. They probably played DAI and figured out how to tweak their product better since I believe they delayed their game after DAI came out. Could be wrong.

 

Whatever the case, listening to people saying how DAI should be like Witcher 3 or whatever is tiring and pretty much a snoozefest. Both games have different focus points.

 

TLDR Pointless comparisons, different products, different developers, go fish.......

 

1) You assertion that CDPR played DAI and make tweaks for TW3 is illogical. By the time DAI came out last fall, the core product of TW3 was already in place. Hell, TW3 was originally supposed to release last fall alongside of DAI but instead was delayed around August to come out this year. So there is no way CDPR would play DAI and then go back and completly change things. The time between DAI's release and TW3's release was mostly for polish, bugs, and minor knick-knack additions.

 

2) They are different products but also similar in the fact that they are both WRPGs in a dark fantasy setting thus making them competitor products. Hardcore gamers like myself will buy both products because we can distinguish the minor diffierences such as DAI being a party based game whereas TW3 is a lone wolf. However, the casual gamer will not take into account those differences and would simply be swayed by reviews, commercials, and the marketing on the back of the box. 

 

3) You may be ignored by the TW3 versus DAI threads but that is the nature of the business. Do you seriously believe Bioware and EA will not benchmark The Witcher 3 for ideas and ways to make Dragon Age 4 a better product? All developers/publishers does this. Whether you like it or not, TW3 and DAI are in the same category and thus consumers  WILL put them side by side to see which one is the better product. Some would say DAI while others would say TW3. Some would even say neither are great games and that Skyrim remains to be the premier fantasy WRPG title. 

 

4) Oh and BTW, CDPR did do a great job with the sidequest in The Witcher 3 and it would benefit us the consumers if Bioware were to add in similar techniques with Dragon Age 4. I think it is too late to change the scope/direction of sidequest in ME4 unless Bioware delays the game for at least a year, but perhaps DA4 could learn from the side quest implementation of TW3. 

[Maniccc]

Mass Effect: Inquisition.

[JamieCOTC]

They don't need to look to Witcher 3, for five years ago Bioware already did side quests right with Mass Effect 2. Look to that game to see how to do non main story related content right.

 

Even though Shepard never spoke, the sidequests in ME2 were the best in the series. I would love a mashup of ME2 and ME1 style sidequests, PC speaks, it's not all about killing every single time, there's a story going on, etc. My favorite side quest of the series was I Remember Me, a side quest for the colonist background in ME1. You didn't have to fire a shot, unless you wanted to or you could ignore it completely. There's a difference between gaining experience and having an experience.

[Linkenski]

On second thought, "Wanna see how to do sidequests?" Mass Effect 1. That game was about the sidequests IMO. It also had the best main plot but to me it was all about exploring the vastness of a fantastic original sci-fi RPG. It still has a lot of unmatched moments in it.

[mrjack]

ME:Next  is not going to DAI in space or TW3 in space but they would be crazy not to look at the cinematic sidequests of TW3 compared to DAI and not see how much more engaging they feel. How some sidequests were resolved also had in-game consequences that persisted in the game world and were perceivable - that is the characters didn't just disappear never to be heard from again.

 

This is coming from someone who isn't a fan of The Witcher story (among other things in the game).

 

Also hair. TW3 hair is light years beyond DAI hair, even with Hairworks turned off. It's not perfect and looked a little wig-like on some unimportant NPCs but it just blew DAI out of the water.

 

So I guess my point is I don't want NME to be exactly like TW3 but they should be humble enough to try and emulate what worked.

[Sanunes]

ME:Next  is not going to DAI in space or TW3 in space but they would be crazy not to look at the cinematic sidequests of TW3 compared to DAI and not see how much more engaging they feel. How some sidequests were resolved also had in-game consequences that persisted in the game world and were perceivable - that is the characters didn't just disappear never to be heard from again.

 

This is coming from someone who isn't a fan of The Witcher story (among other things in the game).

 

Also hair. TW3 hair is light years beyond DAI hair, even with Hairworks turned off. It's not perfect and looked a little wig-like on some unimportant NPCs but it just blew DAI out of the water.

 

So I guess my point is I don't want NME to be exactly like TW3 but they should be humble enough to try and emulate what worked.

 

The complaints will then change to its a bad copy of The Witcher 3, like many have said about Inquisition and Skyrim.

[wolfhowwl]

On second thought, "Wanna see how to do sidequests?" Mass Effect 1. That game was about the sidequests IMO. It also had the best main plot but to me it was all about exploring the vastness of a fantastic original sci-fi RPG. It still has a lot of unmatched moments in it.

 

Hell no.

[NextGenCowboy]

In reality, wouldn't it be best to take the best aspects from each game's side quest? For example, ME1's sidequest have way too much inconsistency; you have ones that are truly great "I Remember Me", and the Feros quest (all tightly packed together), as well as ones that are just atrocious (hunting Space monkey).

 

2 opts for some unique scenery, a couple really challenging battles, but lacks dialogue and, for the most part, rewards. While 3 ups the scale of sidequest, they're very limited in number.

 

This issue becomes the cost of implementing large scale, dialogue heavy, choice-granting quest.

[pdusen]

2) They are different products but also similar in the fact that they are both WRPGs in a dark fantasy setting thus making them competitor products. Hardcore gamers like myself will buy both products because we can distinguish the minor diffierences such as DAI being a party based game whereas TW3 is a lone wolf. However, the casual gamer will not take into account those differences and would simply be swayed by reviews, commercials, and the marketing on the back of the box. 

 

I think both games benefited from being released a number of months apart, since people had a lot less pressure to choose one or the other. It's a lot more feasible to get both this way and I'm sure many people have, even casuals.

[N7Jamaican]

I have the witcher 3, and I don't want fetch quests.  I do a lot of that in WoW and SWTOR.  I think ME2 style of quests is fine.

[Helios969]

Just ordered my 2 copies so we'll see if your assertion is correct.

[Torgette]

Honestly i've never had issues with ME's side quests.

[Mcfly616]

TW3's side quests pack more content (story and otherwise) than most of the main missions in the ME Trilogy. CDPR has set the benchmark. They've created a masterpiece. Bioware would be foolish not to take notice.

[StealthGamer92]

Even if we were doing the same thing over and over again essentially, the side quest stories were pretty well done in the Witcher 3. The most important thing is that they didn't feel like fetch quests, or quests where you simply killed an enemy. They were masked very well, despite being the same thing mostly.

 

Really hoping that Bioware takes some notes from the Witcher 3, especially in regards to non main story related content.

I mentioned earlier also how Halo did this to Firefigh/Hordemode with Sparta Ops and how I could actually play ME3 MP if it tried an approach where each map had missions instead of "KILL, MAME, DESTROY" type gameplay.

[StealthGamer92]

They don't need to look to Witcher 3, for five years ago Bioware already did side quests right with Mass Effect 2. Look to that game to see how to do non main story related content right.

Point & shoot, oh it was such great style of side questing and so full of depth. (sarcasm)

[Torgette]

TW3's side quests pack more content (story and otherwise) than most of the main missions in the ME Trilogy. CDPR has set the benchmark. They've created a masterpiece. Bioware would be foolish not to take notice.

 

Care to provide some examples? Playing through TW3 atm and it's largely the same types of side quests that existed in previous witcher games, just in an open world level. The ME trilogy has plenty of superb side quest already though, I don't get this "most" argument either.

[Mcfly616]

Care to provide some examples? Playing through TW3 atm and it's largely the same types of side quests that existed in previous witcher games, just in an open world level. The ME trilogy has plenty of superb side quest already though, I don't get this "most" argument either.

 Some examples? My statement was pretty self explanatory. The side quests in The Witcher 3 have more content than a good deal of main story missions from the Mass Effect trilogy.

 

 

Maybe you could provide some examples of the "same types of side quests" seen throughout TW3. As of now I'm 60 hours in and find your assertion can't be any further from the truth.

 

 

Mass Effect has "plenty of superb side quests".....Maybe to you it does. I guess everybody has a preference. I find Mass Effects side quests to be some of the most lacking parts of the trilogy. Especially ME2's. Those were beyond bland. New tiny claustrophobic area. Not much in the way of any backstory behind them.

[Booth]

And why are most side quests in Witcher 3 well done? Because there are seven (!) books full of plots they could take as template. The most important thing for good side quests is good story writing. The most important thing for goot story writing is... writing ... you DO need an author who really wants to create a world or you should have a good template to take over lots of background and other stuff.

 

In past I had the feeling that the authors at bioware had LOTS of influence while they created their games. But... that seemed to change. Especially the story (or better stories) in SWTOR had a lot of boring stuff in there. There were some highlights (like the smuggler on tatooine or some agent parts, etc) but if you take all the classes and all the stories... it was far away from what was possible - even for an MMO.

 

And DA:I? I didnt play it, but it is obvious that they only focused the story on the main plot.

 

Witcher 3 definitely shows what is possible in games focussing on a deep story. But can this really be achieved without having a template that growed over years? The author of the witcher books didnt write all his stuff in 3 or 4 years. To fill 50 or even 100 hours of gameplay with a deep story you have to write a lot good stuff. This is NOT trivial. Especially when you see how many books are written... and there a ALSO lots of real bad plots in there. And these are "only" books - no gameplay and graphics to build up around it.

To get back to ME - I think why the story in ME1 or in ME2 is for some player so different has to do with the different story approach. In Mass Effect 1 the world plot was really amazing. To get to know this future fantasy story was really a lot of fun. But the characters (for me) felt rather thin. Wrex, Garrus, Ash, Kaidan... and especially Tali... I didnt create deep feelings for them. They were nice - yes. But the big thing in ME1 that catched me was the world plot. ME2 was/is vice versa. The opposite. The world plot is very thin although it is interesting to get closer to cerberus. But the real clue of ME2 are the crew members. For me they get almost alive in ME2. In ME1 they were nice staffage... but in ME2 I started to like them really. In ME3 it was a mixture. So there are obviously different approaches why a story can catch you. And of course not every approach works for every gamer.

 

What is my conclusion? A game developer has to FOCUS a lot on the story to really create a good one. You dont need to insist on names. There are several good authors - someone like Drew Karpyshyn IS replaceable. But you really have to try to replace him. You really have to find a good author. Put "anybody" there... and you do NOT get the same result.

 

I am rather optimistic that Bioware does still focus on story and do look foward for the next ME. But... I do see the possibility that they fail. Its not to hard to fail. Cause creating a deep story IS hard work.

 

 

edit:

 

I find Mass Effects side quests to be some of the most lacking parts of the trilogy. Especially ME2's. Those were beyond bland. New tiny claustrophobic area. Not much in the way of any backstory behind them.

 

Well - maybe you have different definitions for "side quests"? There are lots of player who would define all the loyal-missions for crew members as "side quest". Some define them as "main quest". I dont define them that way... I just define them as GOOD quests

 

In other words: I do like all the quests in ME1, 2 and 3. Especially the quests in ME2 i liked a LOT. With all story DLC I usually play about 50-55 hours for a run through ME2. 50 hours of good story is enough for me. Witcher 3 has obviously much more. Thats really nice. But most important for me is that story is a big part of the game and most story parts a good (for me). How the quests are defined in sort of theoretical discussions... I really do not care at all

 

I didnt play Witcher3 yet, but a noticed that lots of "side quests" do fit in the big world conflict issues. And of course your job as a witcher is to kill the monsters. But that mostly isnt that easy and often has consequences. CD projekt seemed to catch this most important part of the witcher books very good.

[Mcfly616]

 snip

You do know that the Witcher games are considered non-canon sequels to the books, right? So, while the world building concepts and lore are in place, the writers and CDPR had to come up with their own stories to fill out the games. They're not following the narrative of the books.

 

 

Considering the ME trilogy has established the setting and the lore, I don't think that should be an issue with the next game. The foundation of the fictional universe is in place. Now all they have to do is weave good stories into it.

[Booth]

You do know that the Witcher games are considered non-canon sequels to the books, right? So, while the world building concepts and lore are in place, the writers and CDPR had to come up with their own stories to fill out the games. They're not following the narrative of the books.

 

You do know that there are several "side quests" which are really close to side plots in the book? You know that they took LOTS of characters from the books? The background? All the story atmosphere? This is SO MANY stuff they could use as template. To have a universe AND characters AND lots of background...

 

But... wait. Did you ever write yourself? Did you ever try to create a NEW fantasy world while writing yourself? Or did write in an existing universe? Noticed the difference? NOT? Well... you better try again and learn your lesson. Or maybe you never wrote yourself. Well - thats OK.

 

I dont want to minimize the very good work of CD projekt. They created a wonderful game. But I really would like that gamer notice that creating good quest is a matter of good writing. And good writing... well... has to be written

 

 

Considering the ME trilogy has established the setting and the lore, I don't think that should be an issue with the next game. The foundation of the fictional universe is in place. Now all they have to do is weave good stories into it.

 

It could be an issue for next ME - especially when they want to go far away from the first ME trilogy. Maybe we will know more in 2 weeks. As long as we almost know nothing about next ME we dont know enough to discuss it.

 

But... for the first trilogy they had to create the whole universe. And that job was done by Drew Karpyshyn (as the lead writer) and his team also very good.

[Ambivalent]

I'm pretty sure they got a few pre-orders already and already finished it in all possible ways. And same goes for Obsidian, Bethesda etc. And again i'm sure CD projekt, Bethesda, Obsidian did same for DA:I. All other guys and gals surely played Skyrim. Examples are infinite tbh.

 

So whenever a highly awaited game arrives, i'm sure others at least "try" it and take notes about how to do or not to do stuff. 

 

I'm also pretty sure Bioware dev team has some fans from Bethesda, while they love Skyrim and Bethesda likes Obsidian's work and Obsidian really likes CD Projekt's games.

 

*Captain Obvious saved the day and flies away*

 

Know your enemy? No, i think they want to see how other artists doing and try to see their good or bad sides which can help them improve their works. So not only Bioware they all are checking each other.

 

PS: I'm also sure that Gabe Newell has an Origin account while EA's CEO is lurking on his Steam account aswell but people aren't ready for that. 

[Mcfly616]

But... wait. Did you ever write yourself? Did you ever try to create a NEW fantasy world while writing yourself? Or did write in an existing universe? Noticed the difference? NOT? Well... you better try again and learn your lesson. Or maybe you never wrote yourself. Well - thats OK.

What exactly are you going on about? Where is this coming from? Your own baseless assumptions or delusions of who I am or what I know about my profession....

 

 

Learn a lesson of your own: don't go off on tangents that are supported by nothing more than your imagination.

[Mcfly616]

It could be an issue for next ME - especially when they want to go far away from the first ME trilogy. Maybe we will know more in 2 weeks. As long as we almost know nothing about next ME we dont know enough to discuss it.

 

But... for the first trilogy they had to create the whole universe. And that job was done by Drew Karpyshyn (as the lead writer) and his team also very good.

 "They want to go far away" is nothing more than speculation. Never has Bioware stated those words. As you said when so conveniently contradicted yourself: we know almost nothing about the next ME. And it'll remain that way til Bioware (not some reddit user) comes out with actual info about the game.

 

 

"good writing has to be written".....   Duh. That's why dev teams have writing teams. To write stuff. 

[Booth]

To be honest: I dont care who you are. I do care for games with a good story. And there are reasons why games have a good story (and others dont). That reason was something I wanted to make clearer. If you are not able to accept this rather simple input of mine cause you feel somehow attacked... sorry. I didnt want to harm you.

 

But the approach to write quests if you have a fully created universe is rather different thant the approach if you have to create a universe by yourself. CD projekt did NOT the same like Bioware did when they created the ME universe. Thats it.

 

 

"good writing has to be written".....   Duh. That's why dev teams have writing teams. To write stuff.

 A lot writing "teams" in game industry have the size of about 0.4 FTEs.

[KotorEffect3]

Oh no you don't.  It is one thing when Witcher worshipers try to bring it up in the DA forums. At least they are both medieval fantasy settings so comparisons can be made.  But this is Mass Effect.  The alpha male, the apex predator, witcher isn't even in ME's league.  Geralt's enemies threaten villages and hamlets.   Shepard's enemies threaten entire galaxies.  So what's Geralt going to do when Shepard, Garrus, and Wrex run wild on him?