169 réponses à ce sujet

[Pasquale1234]

I hope that Bioware learns from the Witcher 3 that the stigma that big non-linear game worlds can't have well-crafted quality narratives is utter hogwash.

I think they understood that when they made BG, DAO, ME1...
 

Fortunately, they're bringing back the Mako in a big way.

A fact that delights me. 
 

Then why are you playing a TPS? Mass Effect is as much a TPS as it is an RPG. People that play a Mass Effect game go in knowing and accepting that they are playing a shooter. Sure it is more than just a shooter but it is still a shooter. It's like playing a medieval fantasy rpg and saying you don't like swords and magic.

Not entirely fair.

Personally, I don't play shooters. I play RPGs, and will consider any RPG regardless of the types of weapons used in combat.

-------------------

@ NooneInParticular: (Just my luck that someone will come along with that screenname... lol)

I'll be a lot more interested in Witcher comparisons in, say 6 months to a year from now. Everything is always better than anything that came before when it's all new and shiny and brimming with new stuff to discover.

[Sanunes]

I think it impacts the overall cutscene budget more than the VA and word budget.

They reduced DAI's conversation cutscene workload by making some of the conversations ambient, which allowed them to apply their cutscene resources elsewhere. Had they insisted on making all conversations fully cinematic, I would expect there would have been fewer conversations available, and perhaps some other cutscenes that made it into the game would have been omitted.

It's always about applying the budgeted resources wherever you feel will bring the greatest benefit to the overall product.

Personally, I'd rather have ambient conversations if it means:
-- More conversations, period
-- More cutscenes in other areas

 

Even with more ambient conversations it still would add work to the team that does any of the voice work and for each conversation it would need to be passed eight times for the different voice actors to make sure the conversations flowed properly and there just might not be enough time for that much work.  I could definitely see it being a lot more possible even with just have four voices for the protagonist. 

[Pasquale1234]

Even with more ambient conversations it still would add work to the team that does any of the voice work and for each conversation it would need to be passed eight times for the different voice actors to make sure the conversations flowed properly and there just might not be enough time for that much work.  I could definitely see it being a lot more possible even with just have four voices for the protagonist.

I'm not sure where the "8 times for different voice actors" comes into play.

And actually, allowing more choices for the MC's voice may have been one of the reasons why DAI used more ambient dialogue. When characters speak outside of cutscenes, their mouths flap for as long as the sound file takes to play. When characters speak in cutscenes, there is a lot of extra effort involved to get it lip-synched and apply facial expressions and gestures.

[StealthGamer92]

Even with more ambient conversations it still would add work to the team that does any of the voice work and for each conversation it would need to be passed eight times for the different voice actors to make sure the conversations flowed properly and there just might not be enough time for that much work.  I could definitely see it being a lot more possible even with just have four voices for the protagonist. 

Or 2?  If it's another human PC I don't expect them to put effort into different voices except for "Male Hero" "Female Hero." No real need for 4 or 6 or whatever.

[slaythatdragon]

I don't entirely agree with OP.
ME(all of them) did a pretty good job with side quests. The were quite well done, *in my opinion*.

 

However, I think DA:I could've done better. I'm currently enjoying the Witcher 3 and yes, the side quests are better than DA:I. I love DA:I and have spent an insne amount of time playing it, but the side quests were too dry and it didn't feel like they mattered as much as they did in DA:O. And the time system with the war table felt too much like a cell phone game, where you had to waits hours or days (real time) for your resources to become available again.

I hope MENext doesn't keep that design since they're expanding the world. Especially the war table. ME has it's own style even when it comes to side quests and I do hope they stick to it at least.

 

P.S. Cinematics go a long way. A lot of the DA:I side missions had none and therefore lessened their impact on me somehow. ME has always had dialogue cinematics even for the small quests. Hope that returns.

 

P.P.S. This is all, of course,my opinion

[Valkyrja]

Adding the different racial options part way through development probably increased their cutscene workload by a lot too.

[LinksOcarina]

If BioWare wants to know how to hide simple, repetitive quest design, they can just look to some of their past games. They've been doing it themselves for years.

 

Using Admiral Bone's example of ME2, that game took a simple get to the objective dungeon crawl with Legion's loyalty mission and by adding some conversations with Legion, placing it in a unique environment, and adding an interesting moral choice at the end you've created a solid mission.

 

A simple mission like the stopping a missile launch throws in a twist (a countdown) and has a choice at end.

 

Pretty much.

 

As an aside, I sometimes find it funny how we all always criticize design and narrative and how obvious it is, despite the fact it is always the same.

 

Got to love that illusion of choice. 

[Heimdall]

Though it galls me to say, since my gut instinct is that the next person to make a "Things Bioware should copy/borrow/observe that TW3 does" thread should instead throw themselves in a lake, I do agree that the sidequests were generally better designed than what I've seen in Bioware's recent products.

 

Not that their sidequests are bad, but what I liked about TW3 was not just that they had cutscenes (It's a plus, but not something I personally care much about, that so many people get hung up on this in DAI is just weird to me) and were generally more involved than mere fetch quests, but that they are much more smoothly justified by the plot.  Many of them directly address the issues of the area and the best are those that spin off directly from the main plot.  I wouldn't say that's an issue Bioware needs to learn from TW3's example, however, as they seem to be aware of DAI's general lack of coherence in its questing.  I haven't played JoH myself yet, but from what I hear and what Laidlaw has said, it marks an attempt to improve on the strength of the region story and sidequest writing.  They don't ignore the issues with their product and they pay attention to fan feedback.  If they take a leaf from TW3's book I wouldn't mind, but I think it's just telling them something they already know is an issue in their recent games.

 

Of course ME is a different studio, so I don't know how they've planned to handle sidequests at all for ME:N.  ME1 and ME2 had pretty strong sidequesting, though it fell down a bit in ME3 (With some exceptions), but again, that was the Edmonton studio and I got the feeling they were a bit rushed to get ME3 out the door by the execs (Sidequests would receive the brunt of that effect).

[Anouk]

The balans in Witcher 3 is so nice. cutcenes/action/story/sidequests. it is almost perfect. this is really a good example how it work together as one piece.

 

So i agree with the topic starter.

 

 

Bioware look at that game please!!

[Sanunes]

I'm not sure where the "8 times for different voice actors" comes into play.

And actually, allowing more choices for the MC's voice may have been one of the reasons why DAI used more ambient dialogue. When characters speak outside of cutscenes, their mouths flap for as long as the sound file takes to play. When characters speak in cutscenes, there is a lot of extra effort involved to get it lip-synched and apply facial expressions and gestures.

 

I could be remembering it wrong (for it happens more often then I will admit), but I thought there was four voice actors for each gender.

 

I do agree as far as having the models animating and such ambient dialogue would help out.  I am just thinking of the work that the sound engineers do to make sure that it works, for they have to make sure all the dialogue works in the game itself even if there aren't many animations and if there are dialogue options the transition to the different options would also need to be tested.

[KotorEffect3]

I actually prefer ME3's level design overall. If you're aiming for open-ness then I still think ME1 is the best though because every world actually felt like a "world" and not just an action level.

 

Or, well... I get what you mean. ME2 had unique locations for all the loyalty quests (though those were main-quests IMHO)

No I am talking about the N7 missions.  You had stuff like the questline dealing with the rogue VI where you started off exploring the wreckage of a crashed vessel which lead you to a station the ship had been docked at and when you explore the station you see that the crew was dead due to the rogue VI activating security measures and further investigation concluded that the source of the rogue VI was a mech factory that Shepard had to destroy.  There was also stuff like exploring the wreckage of the Estevanaco (first human vessel to encounter the Vorcha).  Activating a solar shield on a planet that was orbiting an unstable star, repairing and recharging the YMIR mech, Rescuing a Quarian explorer, following and activating a trail of beacons on  a hazy world with a toxic atmosphere (also saw Harvesters before the reapers got a hold of them who were dropping of Klixen for us to fight), finding a prothean pyramid which gave Shepard the same vision he had in ME 1 but at the end it showed the protheans becoming collectors, this was also part of the Blue Suns questline which then lead to N7 mission where batarian terrorists had launched 2 missiles at a human colony and Shepard had to choose between the residential colony or the spaceport (which would leave the infrastructure intact).  Many of these missions were creatively written and executed.  Now were some of them still go in and shoot everything?  Sure but many of them were also investigation and puzzle solving.  The only problem I noticed with the N7 missions from ME 2 was the lack of dialog present in them.  If Shepard and company had not lost their voices during these missions it would be no contest these would be easily the best in the series as far as sidequests go.  Of course you could argue the ME 3 ones had more oomph because they were all tied to the war effort.  The only thing with the ME 3 sidemissions is they all pretty much played the same go in take an area fight off enemy reinforcements.  I personally didn't mind that they were actually just previews for the MP and I did like their oomph but they didn't have ME 2's creativity.  Though I did like the mission briefings from Hackett and then debriefings once they were done.

[Majestic Jazz]

No I am talking about the N7 missions.  You had stuff like the questline dealing with the rogue VI where you started off exploring the wreckage of a crashed vessel which lead you to a station the ship had been docked at and when you explore the station you see that the crew was dead due to the rogue VI activating security measures and further investigation concluded that the source of the rogue VI was a mech factory that Shepard had to destroy.  There was also stuff like exploring the wreckage of the Estevanaco (first human vessel to encounter the Vorcha).  Activating a solar shield on a planet that was orbiting an unstable star, repairing and recharging the YMIR mech, Rescuing a Quarian explorer, following and activating a trail of beacons on  a hazy world with a toxic atmosphere (also saw Harvesters before the reapers got a hold of them who were dropping of Klixen for us to fight), finding a prothean pyramid which gave Shepard the same vision he had in ME 1 but at the end it showed the protheans becoming collectors, this was also part of the Blue Suns questline which then lead to N7 mission where batarian terrorists had launched 2 missiles at a human colony and Shepard had to choose between the residential colony or the spaceport (which would leave the infrastructure intact).  Many of these missions were creatively written and executed.  Now were some of them still go in and shoot everything?  Sure but many of them were also investigation and puzzle solving.  The only problem I noticed with the N7 missions from ME 2 was the lack of dialog present in them.  If Shepard and company had not lost their voices during these missions it would be no contest these would be easily the best in the series as far as sidequests go.  Of course you could argue the ME 3 ones had more oomph because they were all tied to the war effort.  The only thing with the ME 3 sidemissions is they all pretty much played the same go in take an area fight off enemy reinforcements.  I personally didn't mind that they were actually just previews for the MP and I did like their oomph but they didn't have ME 2's creativity.  Though I did like the mission briefings from Hackett and then debriefings once they were done.

 

I still prefer the Mass Effect 1 style of side missions. I believe that had it not been for the reused environments and dull planet exploration, ME1 would be known for the better side missions. I mean, you describe some great ME2 side missions, but they are literally just all combat and little to know dialog. Remember the UNC: Major Kyle? UNC: Hostage? UNC: Missing Marines/Hades Dogs? UNC: Geth Incursions? UNC: Listening Post Alpha? 

[Sanunes]

I still prefer the Mass Effect 1 style of side missions. I believe that had it not been for the reused environments and dull planet exploration, ME1 would be known for the better side missions. I mean, you describe some great ME2 side missions, but they are literally just all combat and little to know dialog. Remember the UNC: Major Kyle? UNC: Hostage? UNC: Missing Marines/Hades Dogs? UNC: Geth Incursions? UNC: Listening Post Alpha? 

 

For those Mass Effect 1 missions are a lot of combat, there is a chance you can resolve them by conversation battle. I just think it would be just as easy to say that Mass Effect 2 missions would have been better if they had a couple of a conversation battle? So it becomes a stalemate with "wouldn't it be better if they just changed this".

[AdmiralBoneToPic]

No I am talking about the N7 missions.  You had stuff like the questline dealing with the rogue VI where you started off exploring the wreckage of a crashed vessel which lead you to a station the ship had been docked at and when you explore the station you see that the crew was dead due to the rogue VI activating security measures and further investigation concluded that the source of the rogue VI was a mech factory that Shepard had to destroy.  There was also stuff like exploring the wreckage of the Estevanaco (first human vessel to encounter the Vorcha).  Activating a solar shield on a planet that was orbiting an unstable star, repairing and recharging the YMIR mech, Rescuing a Quarian explorer, following and activating a trail of beacons on  a hazy world with a toxic atmosphere (also saw Harvesters before the reapers got a hold of them who were dropping of Klixen for us to fight), finding a prothean pyramid which gave Shepard the same vision he had in ME 1 but at the end it showed the protheans becoming collectors, this was also part of the Blue Suns questline which then lead to N7 mission where batarian terrorists had launched 2 missiles at a human colony and Shepard had to choose between the residential colony or the spaceport (which would leave the infrastructure intact).  Many of these missions were creatively written and executed.  Now were some of them still go in and shoot everything?  Sure but many of them were also investigation and puzzle solving.  The only problem I noticed with the N7 missions from ME 2 was the lack of dialog present in them.  If Shepard and company had not lost their voices during these missions it would be no contest these would be easily the best in the series as far as sidequests go.  Of course you could argue the ME 3 ones had more oomph because they were all tied to the war effort.  The only thing with the ME 3 sidemissions is they all pretty much played the same go in take an area fight off enemy reinforcements.  I personally didn't mind that they were actually just previews for the MP and I did like their oomph but they didn't have ME 2's creativity.  Though I did like the mission briefings from Hackett and then debriefings once they were done.

 

Don't forget the ME2 side quest with the spaceship cruiser teetering on the edge of the cliff also or Jacob's loyalty mission on Joab where (i think) you only shoot a couple YMIRs but apart from that its very dialogue centric etc. I found stuff like that to be such a welcome change of pace.

 

But I agree with alot of what you said here. Nicely put. The side quests in ME2 were one of the reasons why the universe felt so lived in, rich n detail & alive, and is the best realised incarnation of what Mass Effect is to date imo. Here's hoping they can recapture that for ME:N.

[Phoenix_Also_Rises]

As was said above, people really need to stop posting about how BioWare needs to learn from The Witcher 3. I think that since BioWare have proven time and time again that they ARE listening to fan feedback and that they ARE willing to make changes, and, seeing as I am pretty sure everyone has to be at this point aware that TW3 exists, they are also aware of the obvious differences. They know. THEY KNOW. And so do we because everyone keeps going on about this. So can we please stop talking about the Witcher 3? Pretty please? With a cherry on top? I thought it belonged into the Dragon Age discussion, what is it doing here? I honestly had to check what forum I was in to make sure I read that right.

 

And to set the record straight, I heard somebody mentioning that TW3 should be praised so much because it came out a small, humble Polish studio - CDPR is neither small nor humble. They are Polish. Please do not equate Not-Obviously-Western-First-World with Sad-Poor-Mostly-Grey. They may have started as such way back when, but CDPR is now no different from any big budget Silicon Valley (or Texas for some reason) game developer. They are probably the biggest non-North American non-Japanese studio.

 

As regards side quests, in Dragon Age, Jaws of Hakkon are definitely a step in the right direction. I have yet to finish it, but so far, I am loving it to bits. Out of Mass Effect games, I have to go with the OG ME. ME2 seemed like ALL side quests. ME3 did have those neat points on Tuchanka and Rannoch where you could choose a landing location based on which side mission you wanted to do, and they were time-sensitive and story-important. I liked ME3 sidequests a lot.

 

But ME1 had those abandoned ships floating in space. I still remember coming across one of them (the one where everyone got sick and mutated and murder crazy), walking in and everything was eerie and quiet and so empty. Whoever wrote that, understood perfectly that few things are as scary as an empty spaceship hovering in the weightless silence of the void. It was about two in the morning, middle of July, my windows were all opened and I was sweating like crazy because it was so damned hot that summer, but the moment I entered that ship, I got chills. That has not happened to me since. By not having to be tied to the war, the ME1 sidequests had more variety, more room to explore.

 

Plus, when the pirates lock Shepard underground with a nuclear missile and she says "Joker! There is someone up there who needs my boot up their ass!" is a line that will never not make me smile.

 

ME1 it is for me then.  

[Luke Pearce]

I agree that Witcher 3 has great sidequests. I really like the ones where the consequences don't appear until much later. For example, Bloody Baron's and Keira's sidequest missions. They had choices that you made but you don't find out what the consequences are until the end of their sidequest lines.

 

I still believe Mass Effect 2 had the best sidequests though (even without DLC ones such as Overlord, Shadow Broker, Zaeed and Kasumi Loyalty missions etc.).  I liked visiting the various planets and having something different each time. Like the ship teetering on the edge of a cliff or the one where you have to solve puzzles to restore power to an abandoned research station. They weren't all 'shooty shooty bang bang' ones (there were still some of those ones though) but for the most part they were fun little deviations. Loyalty missions were FANTASTIC (pretty much all of them were) so I hope to see them return but hopefully with consequences that affect the game later.

 

As it was in Mass Effect, once you make a choice, the consequence is pretty much immediate and if you don't like it then go back and choose another option. In Witcher 3 if you wanted to do that you had to go back a few quests (and potentially hours) to make that important decision. It adds replay value and makes you think more about the choices you made because they might come back to bite you on the butt later.

[KaiserShep]

BioWare has plenty to look back on in its own series as far as side quests are concerned. The only thing they should really be mindful of is the ambient activity in hubs, ships and so forth. Having more dynamic NPC's and more ambient dialogue and sounds to make the environment feel more alive would be a huge step up. 

 

ME1 has a fair template for a lot of side quests, with the exception of the recycled environments. I enjoyed discovering abandoned ships and finding a random distress call or two. 

[KotorEffect3]

I still prefer the Mass Effect 1 style of side missions. I believe that had it not been for the reused environments and dull planet exploration, ME1 would be known for the better side missions. I mean, you describe some great ME2 side missions, but they are literally just all combat and little to know dialog. Remember the UNC: Major Kyle? UNC: Hostage? UNC: Missing Marines/Hades Dogs? UNC: Geth Incursions? UNC: Listening Post Alpha? 

That is why I said in an earlier post throw in ME 1's dialog, ME 2's design choices, and ME 3's oomph and mission briefings.  Also ME 1 had the right idea when it came to planet exploration and the usage of the mako but the execution was lacking and even there are still those moments where you look up at an alien sky and maybe see a couple of aging supergiants in the sky.  Pretty cool.  I think ME N will take some of ME 1's ideas regarding planetary exploration and realize that promise.

[The Elder King]

Oh no you don't.  It is one thing when Witcher worshipers try to bring it up in the DA forums. At least they are both medieval fantasy settings so comparisons can be made.  But this is Mass Effect.  The alpha male, the apex predator, witcher isn't even in ME's league.  Geralt's enemies threaten villages and hamlets.   Shepard's enemies threaten entire galaxies.  So what's Geralt going to do when Shepard, Garrus, and Wrex run wild on him?

I honestly don't understand what you're saying. You can't compare Two games/series because One has a bigger scale?

OT, Bioware will likely try a better balance between story content and open world regardless of TW3. Though the latter will likely be used as benchmark in the this area for other rpgs.

[The Elder King]

If those are actually side quests, then I agree.
 
I think they're more than that though. They're not quite "Priority", but not N7. They're the equivalent of recruitment/loyalty quests in ME2 - and there's lot of more of them in that game.

Well, I consider them sure quests. It's different from ME2 in my opinion. In ME3 I'd consider Earth, Mars, Sur'kesh, Tuchanka (the main one), Citadel, Geth dreadnough, Rannoch (the main one), Thessia, Horizon, Cerberus headquarters and Earth the main quests. All the others Are (for me) side content.

[The Elder King]

I guess within the context of the game, yeah, they're side quests.
 
They would have been part of main content in ME2 though. They have about the same length and address some major aspect of the lore/setting. While the N7 missions in ME2 are about the same as the N7 ones in ME3 (in length and brevity, I mean. The ME3 ones are just multiplayer maps).

I agree. I just think the game's context is important to establish the main content/side content.

[Sanunes]

Well, I consider them sure quests. It's different from ME2 in my opinion. In ME3 I'd consider Earth, Mars, Sur'kesh, Tuchanka (the main one), Citadel, Geth dreadnough, Rannoch (the main one), Thessia, Horizon, Cerberus headquarters and Earth the main quests. All the others Are (for me) side content.

 

That is how I look at quests, if you must do them to continue the game's story they are part of the set of main quests, but if you don't have to do it they become secondary quests.  Now the one they have done over the years that makes it hard for me to really categorize for it feels like both is the Rogue VI mission in the Sol System in Mass Effect 1. Only because it is not mandatory to move the primary quest over, but at the same time it gives you the specialization which can be very important to the game, but most of the time I leave it as secondary.

[KaiserShep]

That is how I look at quests, if you must do them to continue the game's story they are part of the set of main quests, but if you don't have to do it they become secondary quests.  Now the one they have done over the years that makes it hard for me to really categorize for it feels like both is the Rogue VI mission in the Sol System in Mass Effect 1. Only because it is not mandatory to move the primary quest over, but at the same time it gives you the specialization which can be very important to the game, but most of the time I leave it as secondary.

The rogue VI mission's a special case because it ties into a new character and is even mentioned again in ME3. I rather like the dialogue involving it when talking to EDI on Cronos station.