67 réponses à ce sujet

[spinachdiaper]

It seems today's trend is to make the warrior class a dumb tank decoy who wields a giant dull butter knife while rogues and mages nuke every enemy in a two mile radius in under two seconds. The worst part of it is now they like to drop hordes and mobs on the poor warrior who can only swing in a small radius or even worst they are stuck with no area of effect attacks and have work on each one at a time while getting chewed the hell up in from all directions. The poor hamstrung and impotent warriors need some serious help. Stop adoring rogues and mages with demigod like prowess and turning proud warriors into clowns in armor that swing giant prop weapons made out of painted paper mache.  Save our Warriors!

[mousestalker]

It seems today's trend is to make the warrior class a dumb tank decoy who wields a giant dull butter knife while rogues and mages nuke every enemy in a two mile radius in under two seconds. The worst part of it is now they like to drop hordes and mobs on the poor warrior who can only swing in a small radius or even worst they are stuck with no area of effect attacks and have work on each one at a time while getting chewed the hell up in from all directions. The poor hamstrung and impotent warriors need some serious help. Stop adoring rogues and mages with demigod like prowess and turning proud warriors into clowns in armor that swing giant prop weapons made out of painted paper mache.  Save our Warriors!

So they should stop being realistic and cater even more to wannabe's?

Interesting...

[Commander Rpg]

The only problem with the fighter's past incarnations, is that it was mono-thematic and boring on the long run. If you take a look at the fighter's branches in D&D Next, you'll see people have realised the issues and have tried to fix them.

[Fidite Nemini]

So they should stop being realistic and cater even more to wannabe's?

Interesting...

 

RPGs stop being realistic? When did they start being realistic to begin with? Isn't it the point of your standard sauce RPG that it's set in a fantasy world where realism doesn't have to apply to make way for better gameplay and narrative?

[The Hierophant]

Which is why i love how Capcom handled the fighter, warrior & assassin classes in Dragon's Dogma.

[Voxr]

Warriors have sort of always been like that....

The trade off is high survivability to lesser damage and attack radius. Mages and Rogues are DPS and Mages especially across multiple games are glass canons. While Rogues are DPS/utility. Warriors are typically a steady DPS or build and burst DPS (ala Fury spec from WoW or one of the many burst builds in GW2)

In the case of most MMOs and more specifically WoW (I used to tank and DPS a lot as Warrior from Vanilla-start of WoTLK) warriors are still able to lay down DPS fairly well. Arms PvP in Cata was a substantial DPS spec for I know at least two patches. So much so Prot and Arms were the only specs for Warriors, Fury was almost out of the question.

Warriors have always traditionally been tank/brute classes. A good game that I think that deviates from this is Tera. Now I haven't spent much time in Tera, and while it seems that Warriors are still pretty beefy. They're also really good at burst DPS and are pretty fast, though their trade off seems to be a higher learning curve. They also have been reworked (as far as the last time I played about 2 months ago lol) to be a DPS class rather than tank.

But in the end Warriors have pretty much been like that as far as the archetype goes. A tank and damage sponge/mountain of blades and hammers have been their job for many years because frankly it fits the class archetype.

[Voxr]

RPGs stop being realistic? When did they start being realistic to begin with? Isn't it the point of your standard sauce RPG that it's set in a fantasy world where realism doesn't have to apply to make way for better gameplay and narrative?

Nothing gets past you.....

I think there's a bit of sarcasm laced in mouse's post.

[Draining Dragon]

[Fast Jimmy]

The only problem with the fighter's past incarnations, is that it was mono-thematic and boring on the long run. If you take a look at the fighter's branches in D&D Next, you'll see people have realised the issues and have tried to fix them.

5E Fighter was the first time I've super excited about playing a fighter. The different Paths and abilities each one offers is a ton of fun. As is the automatic Artisan Tools proficiency.

[mousestalker]

5th ed D&D is a lot better than I expected. I'm playing it every other Saturday and it's a game we all very much look forward to. WoTC really took to heart the criticisms they received over 4th edition.

[Fast Jimmy]

5th ed D&D is a lot better than I expected. I'm playing it every other Saturday and it's a game we all very much look forward to. WoTC really took to heart the criticisms they received over 4th edition.

I like it (so far) more than 3.X. Which is very surprising. They balanced magic by making other classes much more useful instead of nerfing magic (smart move) and their approach to incorporating role-playing into the core gameplay through Backgrounds and Inspiration is genius to avoid spreadsheet samurais.

[Cyonan]

I'd rather developers work to make Warriors powerful and unique in their own right rather than just handing them the same tools that Rogues and Mages have.

 

Not everybody needs to nuke everything in a 2 mile radius.

[Fidite Nemini]

Nothing gets past you.....

I think there's a bit of sarcasm laced in mouse's post.

 

Such is the incompetence of this medium to properly reflect sarcasm and distinguish tongue-in-cheek from what might be genuine nonsense.

 

But meh, I apparently should've recognized anyway, right?

 

 

Whatever, I responded to a post that struck me as unconstructive mocking. Deal with it.

[metatheurgist]

I'd rather developers work to make Warriors powerful and unique in their own right rather than just handing them the same tools that Rogues and Mages have.

The Warrior would like his daggers, bows, light armor and mobility options back please.

[In Exile]

It seems today's trend is to make the warrior class a dumb tank decoy who wields a giant dull butter knife while rogues and mages nuke every enemy in a two mile radius in under two seconds. The worst part of it is now they like to drop hordes and mobs on the poor warrior who can only swing in a small radius or even worst they are stuck with no area of effect attacks and have work on each one at a time while getting chewed the hell up in from all directions. The poor hamstrung and impotent warriors need some serious help. Stop adoring rogues and mages with demigod like prowess and turning proud warriors into clowns in armor that swing giant prop weapons made out of painted paper mache.  Save our Warriors!

 

The reality is that in a world of magic, warriors suck. It's why - IRL - now that we have guns, people dressed in metal and armed with more metal to hit people are automatically obsolete. RPGs can only even keep warriors relevant in a world with magic by given them what effectively amount to magical powers. 

[Fast Jimmy]

I'd rather developers work to make Warriors powerful and unique in their own right rather than just handing them the same tools that Rogues and Mages have.

Not everybody needs to nuke everything in a 2 mile radius.

A system that works with the same efficiency PvE as it does PvP tends to avoid a lot of this nonsense. Enemies should be able to do anything the player does (provided all criteria are met) and vice versa.

[Voxr]

Such is the incompetence of this medium to properly reflect sarcasm and distinguish tongue-in-cheek from what might be genuine nonsense.

 

But meh, I apparently should've recognized anyway, right?

 

 

Whatever, I responded to a post that struck me as unconstructive mocking. Deal with it.

While it's true it's harder to convey sarcasm through text. Considering the nonsensical-ness of the post, I would think it easy to have recognized that it probably wasn't serious. But hey, that's me I suppose.

[In Exile]

A system that works with the same efficiency PvE as it does PvP tends to avoid a lot of this nonsense. Enemies should be able to do anything the player does (provided all criteria are met) and vice versa.

 

I think that's bad design. The reality is that what works for the player (e.g. targeted alpha strikes) doesn't work as well for the AI. 

[Fast Jimmy]

The reality is that in a world of magic, warriors suck. It's why - IRL - now that we have guns, people dressed in metal and armed with more metal to hit people are automatically obsolete. RPGs can only even keep warriors relevant in a world with magic by given them what effectively amount to magical powers.

I disagree.

For one, magic is a skill, like playing an instrument. Many people can pick up a guitar and learn to play after careful instruction. Only the most select few are able to learn how to play nearly every instrument known to man and can do so with beautiful proficiency while also performing with great flair under high stress situations. If any person with a flicker of magical ability can launch fireballs at will, then yes... that world is doomed to terrible imbalance, not to mention social hierarchies that would collapse the foundations of society.

Fighting is, similarly, a highly learned skill. The most proficient don't just clang on their opponents shields for hours until a mistake is made... they are the most naturally athletic, using the environment and their knowledge of enemy weaknesses and gaps to inflict the most damage possible. Just like anyone can play basketball, but few people can make it to the NBA, the same applies to warriors.


5E (which I can't stop harping about) also makes distinctions between "real" classes and more generic NPC roles. A 5E town guard is not made up of a group of Fighters or Rogues. They are either commoners or guards, with dramatically lower power curves and skills. Fighters are the true battle-borne masters of fighting, who can use their expertise to take down foes in a way superior to magic in some ways, given the Vancian nature of D&D spells per day.

Which, to me, not only makes sense but imposes the greatest order of balance. Wizards can't summon the power of the cosmos at the snap of their finger every 120 seconds, all day, every day. The balance of a system is broken by the cooldown systems that have become a staple in CRPGs in the past decade.

[Fast Jimmy]

I think that's bad design. The reality is that what works for the player (e.g. targeted alpha strikes) doesn't work as well for the AI.

It can. Again, 5E... the rules it uses for aggro abilities don't mandate that enemies Attack the tank. They, instead, have abilities that give penalties to the chance to hit or to damage when the target is anyone but the person Taunting, as an example. AI is only dumb because it is programmed to be dumb. Just like you can program an AI to play chess as smart as a human, you can program an RPG to fight as well as a human. And you need only introduce skills that don't force stupidity on the target (whether AI or human), but give them weighted parameters with which to work.

[Fidite Nemini]

While it's true it's harder to convey sarcasm through text. Considering the nonsensical-ness of the post, I would think it easy to have recognized that it probably wasn't serious. But hey, that's me I suppose.

 

If you read some what've read in my time on the internet, you'd be dumbstruck at how often people write nonsense and totally mean it.

 

Now, I don't exactly stalk mousestalker (... pun not intended) so I'm not familiar with his/her opinion about RPG mechanics, which is also why I framed my response more diplomatically. And in case you missed it, if said comment was meant to be sarcastic, my own response did affirm the sentiment that would've been the core to that sarcasm, i.e. RPGs not being realistic.

 

I covered my bases on that one

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

I want my Badass Cleric back. Then I can smash my enemies faces with my mace and heal my wounded friends when needed. Also Wizard is suppose to be fun to play and not a guilt like Dragon Age universe.

[mousestalker]

If you read some what've read in my time on the internet, you'd be dumbstruck at how often people write nonsense and totally mean it.
 
Now, I don't exactly stalk mousestalker (... pun not intended) so I'm not familiar with his/her opinion about RPG mechanics, which is also why I framed my response more diplomatically. And in case you missed it, if said comment was meant to be sarcastic, my own response did affirm the sentiment that would've been the core to that sarcasm, i.e. RPGs not being realistic.
 
I covered my bases on that one

Her. I have a picture on this very forum and everything.

My opinion is pretty straightforward. I like fun, which is, for me, a system that lends itself to quick conflict resolution without consulting the rules (for PnP games) or encouraging min/maxing (for all games).

If you want to discuss how the roles should be balanced in rpg's, I'm game.

But, that being said, the traditional roles (warrior, thief and wizard) are fairly limiting and grossly artificial. No one ever really explains why wizards can't wear steel plate any more. Or why fighters have to be over muscled and stupid. For MMORPG's and PnP such limitations can make sense. You want every possible player in a group to have an effective role. But in a single player video rpg, that argument gets pretty weak.

[In Exile]

Like what? A solid AI should be able to closely emulate a player controlled input. Fighting games are a concrete example of this.

But fighting AI doesn't operate according to the same rules. It produces similar outcomes - it emulates - but it does it using a substantially different set of constraints from the one we operate under (e.g. regarding reaction times). And fighting games are not the same as tactical games. Look at how the AI must cheat in an RTS or turn based strategy game to keep up with the player.