11 réponses à ce sujet

[Emissary of the Collectors]

So i wanted to propose a question that may need a little bit of "what if" mentality to answer:

 

If the Illusive Man had never become indoctrinated and put all his resources towards fighting the Reapers by the time of ME3 how much of an increased chance would the galaxy have against the invaders? This includes Fleet-strength, Technology, Troops, Scientists, and of course Resources. I suppose this also goes into the story since Cerberus actively prevents Shepard from getting the information he needs to understand the Crucible and Catalyst so i suppose we can count that element as well.

 

So make your guesses/estimations

[Suron]

Hate to say it but it's really too much to speculate on.

 

In the end I don't see Cerberus adding that much to make too much a difference if they "played nice" and were never indoctrinated.

 

think about it.  TIM could have been indoctrinated since way back from those comics.  Before Cerberus even existed.  If so Cerberus may have NEVER even existed....

 

if it did who's to say how much backing they would have had since we don't know if it's backers were also somehow indoctrinated.

 

it goes too far back to do any relevant speculation without making far too many assumptions about when where and how TIM was first indoctrinated.

 

Again had he never been indoctrinated who's to say Cerberus, as an organization, would have ever come to exist?  TIM could just have grown old and fat at home...etc..etc..etc.

 

Not trying to derail your topic.  But really, there's too many points at which he may have become indoctrinated and depending on those points Cerberus's very nature and existence is in question.

 

You may want to narrow your area if you really wish a coherent discussion on this.  Say "assume TIM wasn't indoctrinated from the comics (sorry I can't think of that story/comic name) and cerberus existed as we saw it up to ME2" (or something of that nature.

 

But with TIM's indoctrination possibly going as far back as the comics (before CERBERUS exists) just brings up waaaaaaaay too many what-ifs as to whether cerberus even still existed as we know it or in some other form...if at all.

[Vazgen]

I don't think it would've been much. Cerberus strength lies in sabotage and surgical strikes, not a blunt force. And the former is not very effective against the Reapers. The Crucible would've probably been built sooner though.

[Heimerdinger]

So i wanted to propose a question that may need a little bit of "what if" mentality to answer:

 

If the Illusive Man had never become indoctrinated and put all his resources towards fighting the Reapers by the time of ME3 how much of an increased chance would the galaxy have against the invaders? This includes Fleet-strength, Technology, Troops, Scientists, and of course Resources.

 

None. See "Reaper Fleet Size" topic. The reapers simply have insane numbers.

 

 

 

I suppose this also goes into the story since Cerberus actively prevents Shepard from getting the information he needs to understand the Crucible and Catalyst so i suppose we can count that element as well.

 

That's a whole different story though, I suppose the Crucible would be up an running much faster.

[themikefest]

I would guess Shepard would still be dead, no SR2 and the reapers win

[Emissary of the Collectors]

Okay then let me rephrase: I personally do not believe TIM was indoctrinated before the ending of ME2 as he never actively does anything to help the Reapers, even going as far as destroying one of their most powerful tools (The Collectors) and stopping the creation of the Human Reaper. So then we re-ask the question:

 

If TIM was never indoctrinated (meaning that ME2's Cerberus doesnt become ME3's Cerberus) and aided the galaxy against the Invaders, then how much of a better chance would the galaxy's defenders have against the Reaper threat

[Suron]

Okay then let me rephrase: I personally do not believe TIM was indoctrinated before the ending of ME2 as he never actively does anything to help the Reapers, even going as far as destroying one of their most powerful tools (The Collectors) and stopping the creation of the Human Reaper. So then we re-ask the question:

 

If TIM was never indoctrinated (meaning that ME2's Cerberus doesnt become ME3's Cerberus) and aided the galaxy against the Invaders, then how much of a better chance would the galaxy's defenders have against the Reaper threat

But the videos you watch while assaulting the Cerberus base show us that the "ME2 Cerberus" IS the "ME3 Cerberus"  TIM manipulated Shepard.  Even if TIM wasn't indoctrinated back during those comics with Eva and whatever and was instead indoctrinated between ME2 and ME3...the ME2 Cerberus IS the ME3 Cerberus..so obviously he was indoctrinated before then.  or at least pulling Shepards strings.

 

As I said there's almost too much to speculate going back like that....even your question itself has to be a "what if" (ie "what if TIM wasn't indoctrinated until ME3" "What if this" "what if that" THEN posing the question)

 

sorry but your "rephrasing" doesn't, honestly, help.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

ME1 - Cerberus = Derperus

ME2 - Cerberus = 150 operatives.

ME3 - Cerberus = six months later. Major Galactic Empire.

 

Consensus = Bad Writing Theory. They needed more and different kinds of mooks other than reapers. The premise of ME3 was a bad idea.

[Emissary of the Collectors]

But the videos you watch while assaulting the Cerberus base show us that the "ME2 Cerberus" IS the "ME3 Cerberus"  TIM manipulated Shepard.  Even if TIM wasn't indoctrinated back during those comics with Eva and whatever and was instead indoctrinated between ME2 and ME3...the ME2 Cerberus IS the ME3 Cerberus..so obviously he was indoctrinated before then.  or at least pulling Shepards strings.

 

As I said there's almost too much to speculate going back like that....even your question itself has to be a "what if" (ie "what if TIM wasn't indoctrinated until ME3" "What if this" "what if that" THEN posing the question)

 

sorry but your "rephrasing" doesn't, honestly, help.

He manipulated Shepard into working for him...to do tasks that harm the Reaper cause...not support the Reaper cause. TIM is by his very nature a manipulative and cunning individual but that does not mean he was Indoctrinated first. Nothing that Cerberus does in ME2 even almost benefits the Reapers in any direct or indirect way, their entire goal for which they sent Shepard to complete at the time was to investigate and stop the Collectors...who work for the Reapers. So i really dont see your point in this at all

[Suron]

He manipulated Shepard into working for him...to do tasks that harm the Reaper cause...not support the Reaper cause. TIM is by his very nature a manipulative and cunning individual but that does not mean he was Indoctrinated first. Nothing that Cerberus does in ME2 even almost benefits the Reapers in any direct or indirect way, their entire goal for which they sent Shepard to complete at the time was to investigate and stop the Collectors...who work for the Reapers. So i really dont see your point in this at all

 

ME2 Cerberus IS ME3 Cerberus.  As I said.  You're right we don't know "when" he was indoctrinated.  And we know TIM wasn't completely under reaper control even in ME3 because of trying to control them.  He, like saren, still had some autonomy and didn't even KNOW he was indoctrinated.

 

You can get mad at my responses all you want.  Fact is your question is almost un-answerable without taking "what if" after "what if" to narrow it down to even begin to answer.

 

the only part that can be said, regardless, is that it wouldn't have had much of an affect at all...sans crucible maybe being done sooner...and that's even IF cerberus, as an entity, existed without TIM's indoctrination.

[Undead Han]

Not too much.

 

Cerberus originally was only a small organization organized into isolated cells. In terms of the structure and size of their organization they more akin to a terrorist organization than a national army. Also in between Mass Effect 2 & 3 Anderson had succeeded in getting the Turians to eliminate many of these cells, and came close to capturing the Illusive Man himself. The organization, never large to begin with, was very much on the ropes prior to ME3.

 

ME3 then threw much of that out the window by somehow transforming Cerberus into an organization that could field a galactic fleet and invade planets like Eden Prime or Benning. They tried to explain this via indoctrination, but while it perhaps explains the growth in manpower it fails to explain where Cerberus conjured all the ships, armor, guns, and supplies to transport and support these large armies in the field. It never made much sense.

 

If Cerberus had instead been written as allies in the Reaper War instead of a fifth column, it is likely Bioware wouldn't have given them the fleet and army that they currently have in the game. I think their role would be more in working to complete the Crucible and intelligence gathering. I don't think it would have shortened the war however, because if Cerberus were allies its likely the Reapers would have just used some other indoctrination faction to steal the Prothen VI at Thessia. I think the end result would have been the same.

[Laughing_Man]

Well, in Bioware's naive idea of how galactic politics should work, Cerberus is a real naughty boy.

 

But in fact, if you think about it logically, in a real scenario every race would have at the very least one Cerberus equivalent black-ops body, to handle... stuff that needs handling.

 

But realism comes only after educating the masses on the virtues of the naive paragon approach.

 

To the original question: Intelligence in many cases decides the outcome of a battle, sometimes even a war, so it's hard to say how much could have been gained from a vicious-yet-loyal Cerberus.