424 réponses à ce sujet

[Vazgen]

 

I was not asked if we had seen any eyes that look the same as TIM's. I was asked if we have seen eyes that look like TIM's, and both of those reasonably qualify.  

 

Kind of a silly/semanticist response anyway, though. I mean, we are supposed to freak out about TIM's eyes, but Shepard is not supposed to react at all because they are only very similar to husks/Saren yet not identical? Dunno why you folks are acting like my argument is crazy while making ones such as this.

I don't even know what your argument is about. Shepard not reacting at all is a writing fault. Just as him not reacting to his death except "I got better". Just as him starting to work with Cerberus despite working against them in ME1. The only argument I'm making about TIM's eyes is that they appear that way due to interaction with a Reaper artifact which is supported by lore. I don't think of the eyes as being a sign of indoctrination. There are other hints at him being indoctrinated or starting to getting indoctrinated due to the interaction with the Reaper artifact.

 

The visions from the artifact are different from Object Rho visions. TIM was connected to the artifact

Spoiler

I've been having headaches since I woke up. 

 

Codex on Reaper indoctrination

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind

and was able to

Spoiler

track it to Illium through that connection. 

IIRC, Shepard did not complain of headaches after Object Rho encounter. Nor did he get any new abilities or experiences after waking up. TIM was able to

Spoiler

speak in languages he never knew before (asari language, Reaper husk language), "feel it in his mind".

 

Desolas: I realised on Arcturus station that the relic had changed you. We took it to Illium to see if you would follow. It seems whatever... psychic bond you have with it transcends space and distance. What you said to "Ben" confirms it.

Bolded parts are bolded in the comic.

 

There is no place far enough away, Eva! I could feel them from Arcturus station.

Doesn't all this hint at TIM's indoctrination? Not full indoctrination, mind you, I'm talking about the very first stage and the process probably being halted by the artifact destruction. Of course, it's not explicitly stated. You may continue to believe that TIM only became indoctrinated after getting implanted but it goes against Saren's example which shows implantation as being the last stage of indoctrination, not the first. I find the indoctrination hinted in Evolution comic a much better explanation for Cerberus evolution throughout the games. 

[GalacticWolf5]

1. Everything you've said is based on either flawed argument, poor evidence, or headcanon.

 

2. Except that what we see in the comics is not mentioned to be indoctrination or implantation of Reaper technology.

 

3. One word responses are not legitimate in this instance.

 

4. There are two disconnects here. Arca Monolith =/= Reaper eyes or indoctrination. Nor do Reaper visions and voices =/= indoctrination.

 

5. As mentioned above by myself and Professor X, you're arguing that Shepard is not indoctrinated while TIM is indoctrinated when they experience the exact same effects from a Reaper device. You're saying that TIM was indoctrinated while Shepard was not, and using TIM's actions in ME3 (after he implanted himself with Reaper technology) as a justification for this. This is a non sequiter point. There's a better solution presented: TIM was not indoctrinated until he implanted himself with Reaper technology. All of his other actions do have an explanation. 

 

6. It's a conspiracy what you're trying to build.

 

1. Sure.

 

2. What? His eyes change to what they are now because of the Reaper artifact.

 

3. Why type a whole paragraph when a single word provides the answer? I had already adressed this anyways.

 

4. Uh no. The Arca Monolith did give TIM the Reaper eyes. And yes having visons of Reapers or hearing Reapers in your head is a sign of indoctrination.

 

5. Again with Shepard. I've already adressed this many times now.

 

6. ...

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

 TIM: "I've been fighting them longer than you can imagine"

Joe Fan: "Fighting their influence in your head, you mean?? Yeah I knew you were indoctrinated!"

 

Let us think this through, shall we? Shepard tells TIM he is indoctrinated. TIM denies it. Now you are telling me that TIM is telling Shepard he is indoctrinated?

 

TIM saw visions, heard voices from the Arca Monolith. Same things happened to Shepard after 'Rho. Close call, but we know Shep was not indoctrinated.

 

TIM then does the sensible thing to do after seeing what the artifact showed him: he recognizes that there are dark, alien threats in space and takes action to defend his people. With this context, TIM's quote above actually has a more reasonable explanation -- he really was fighting them before Shepard. We also see that, before ME3, the Reaper threat is treated like common knowledge among Cerberus personnel. TIM's purpose for Cerberus -- defending humanity, in no small part by fighting the Reapers -- is canon. Why is it so difficult for people to accept this?

 

Also, Miranda confirms that the purpose of the cells Shepard busted in ME1 were to combat the Reaper threat -- the experiments on 'Creepers and rachni and such were done with the intent to use them as shock-troops to use against the Reapers. Stupid! responds Joe Fan, that is crazy and only indoctrinated idiots trying to shoot us all in the feet would do that! Well, guess what? The Protheans did the same thing (with Rachni). Javik says so.

 

Setting up a task force to fight the Reapers -- not a very Reaper-thrall kind of a thing to do.

 

And no, you cannot resist indoctrination if you are too far gone. With Benezia and Saren, it was relatively recent. With Dr. Amanda Kenson, she was fully indoctrinated. She cannot be made to stand down, no matter how Shepard -- the talk-jitsu master -- tries to do so (Paragon). You cannot make any of the Cerberus mooks stand down. That TIM can stand down only lends credence to my argument that his indoctrination was relatively recent (sometime after Sanctuary).

 

 

Indoctrination takes time and continued exposure to set in. No one is zap-indoctrinated. TIM's exposure to the artifact was brief. There is no evidence -- zero, not a shred of it -- that the artifact imparted anything onto TIM that indoctrinated him. What I claim -- that the implants indoctrinated him -- is at least proven to happen.

 

Also, the incident with TIM at the Arca Monolith happened roughly 30 years ago. You are, in effect, claiming that TIM has been under mind-control/mind-alteration for over three decades and has still stayed coherent/functional. Do you folks really not see the craziness of this argument?

 

Maelon: "Please, professor. You wrote a paper on this. 'Forced behavior modification always results in mental degradation. Whether Reaper indoctrination or drugs, test subjects always loses higher cognitive function."

 

The Illusive Man only became indoctrinated when he injected himself with reaper nanides sometime after Sanctuary. Lawson's data showed that they could control reaper forces indefinitely. I think TIM thought by injecting himself he could channel the control signal and do that directly with the reapers themselves -- especially when the Crucible was attached to the Citadel. "I know with certainty that the Crucible will allow me to control the Reapers." They'd done the research. But he made the mistake of implanting himself.

 

The Illusive Man packs the Affably Evil trope and those eyes of his are supposed to represent da evulz as well.

 

See the problem was when they wrote ME1 Cerberus was just a bunch of mooks with no central organization that just did bad things allegedly for the advancement of humans without any safety precautions. Evil is Dumb. It wasn't until ME2 and the later novels and comics they decided to retcon Cerberus into something other than that. They gave Jack Harper a history. And they made Good is even Dumber.

[Iakus]

The Illusive Man only became indoctrinated when he injected himself with reaper nanides sometime after Sanctuary. Lawson's data showed that they could control reaper forces indefinitely. I think TIM thought by injecting himself he could channel the control signal and do that directly with the reapers themselves -- especially when the Crucible was attached to the Citadel. "I know with certainty that the Crucible will allow me to control the Reapers." They'd done the research. But he made the mistake of implanting himself.

 

The Illusive Man packs the Affably Evil trope and those eyes of his are supposed to represent da evulz as well.

 

See the problem was when they wrote ME1 Cerberus was just a bunch of mooks with no central organization that just did bad things allegedly for the advancement of humans without any safety precautions. Evil is Dumb. It wasn't until ME2 and the later novels and comics they decided to retcon Cerberus into something other than that. They gave Jack Harper a history. And they made Good is even Dumber.

Tim grabbed the Villain Ball, and totally ran with it

[Seyd71]

I don't like the idea of ammunition or grenades as a power. Choose them for part of your load out before a mission. Also while cryo ammo is fun it's very space magicky. Any N7 Marine would be trained in the use of all types of grenades and ammo.

 

The Mako - On the XBox 360 I loved driving around in the Mako. On the PC I absolutely hated the Mako. It has to do with controller support. While the PC has better support for micromanaging the character in combat (although when I played my adept in ME1 I ended up shooting everything anyway or using one or two powers), the controller is easier to use and I urge BW to have controller support for their next PC versions.

 

Shepard should have been able to show the Batarians she really cared and gone to Khar'shan with the Mako and got the Pillars of Strength. Instead... a click of the mouse or the pull of the trigger. Simple.

 

Unless you don't like Batarians 

[warblewobble]

I'm gonna be that guy. NOTHING. Seriously, though...the endgame of ME3 I guess?

[Linkenski]

Uh oh...

 

 

I'll avoid going into rant mode and just start off by saying the Cerberus plotline was way too prominent in ME3.

Which would've been okay if it was justified... which it wasn't lol. They could've explained how so many troops had been possible and how it already might have started back in ME2 under Shepard and Suicide crew's noses and they could've made all dialogues between TIM and Shepard not so completely one-sided as they were.

 

I'm generally sick of Bioware doing EVIL™ characters. In a good plot all characters should base their actions through motivations that are humane (unless they aren't human) and TIM falling under the EVIL™ category was jarring. There is no such thing as good nor evil. An "evil" dude always justifies his actions in his own head and to him, what he's doing is actually the right thing. TIM sure sounded like he was sure of himself and right in doing the things that he did, but deep down there was no reason. Oh, wait... I forgot: Indoctrination™

 

Don't EVER use the mind-control card for the driving antagonistic force again Bioware. So much potential drama thrown out the window because of it.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I don't even know what your argument is about.

Figures.
 

Shepard not reacting at all is a writing fault.

 

Heh, right... fans thinking they know the lore better than the ones who wrote it -- LOL!

[Vazgen]

Figures.
 

 

Heh, right... fans thinking they know the lore better than the ones who wrote it -- LOL!

Why did I even bother...

[FiveThreeTen]

1. Shepard dying and being brought back to life.
It's asking too much suspension of disbelief on my part to take it seriously. I would expect Cerberus to spend their money more wisely. It was also the first narrative step taken that lead Shepard to become some sort of Space Jesus in ME3.

 

2. The Human Reaper Baby.
I thought the whole Suicide Mission was pretty nice, crossing the Omega 4 relay had a lot dramatic tension that worked really well. Then you have this Boss at the end. I cannot not laugh at its design. Maybe my expectations were too high on what we would find behind the Omega 4 relay. Just didn't worked for me.

 

3. Cerberus being turned into mindless vilainous mooks in ME3.

From their design (seriously, most of Cerberus soldiers you fight are almost all zombified at that point, they are nothing but canon fodder with synthetized voices) to the organizations decisions (idiot ball, conveniently indoctrinated etc.)

 

4. ME3 beginning
A lot of people complain about ME3 endings (and with good reasons). I think the Reaper invasion lacked proper build up.

 

5. Earth centered theme in ME3

Doesn't work for me when we had spent time visiting other planets in the series.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Figures.
 

 

Heh, right... fans thinking they know the lore better than the ones who wrote it -- LOL!

 

Why not? This was a series that at several times didn't adhere to it's own lore. It doesn't seem like much of stretch that the reason could be that the writers just didn't know.

[alienatedflea]

things I didn't like are bolded so you can get the TL:DR version:

I guess I just dislike the endings even with the extended dlc...(not to bring up a hot topic) but if IT is real, then I really hate how every ending we failed/everyone dies (just giving one of  my reason for why I don't like the endings).  Plus what restrained the Shepard storyline could not have been a planned trilogy because Cerberus really had untapped potential that really could've been explored. 

 

Another thing is The Collectors.  Just seems like a random antagonist to fight against in ME2.  I mean if Bioware could at least drop a hint or two in a previous game of a possible future antagonist would be awesome (failure to have a lead in to future antagonists).  I mean if we have a mission in ME1 that at least mentioned the Collectors would be awesome because we did have a few missions that made Shepard have a few run ins with Cerberus in ME1. 

 

I didn't like that Bioware changed two original characters in ME3 from what they were in ME1 (Ashley Williams/Kaidan Alenko),  I honestly do not care about sexual orientation of people.  I feel that making the characters bisexual MIDWAY through the trilogy lost my connection with these characters.  Kaidan just (to me) never seemed attracted to men but in ME3, he is an oversensitive goof.  I felt that was out of character from the "manly man" he was in ME1.  I never played as a female so I cannot speak for Ashley's change really affected her from what she portrayed as ME1.  I would suggest keep every character for future games to be bisexual from the start (if we must appease the political correct). 

 

I am sure there are more but I forgot em.  I hope I am not too much flamed for my reasons.

[General TSAR]

5. Earth centered theme in ME3

Doesn't work for me when we had spent time visiting other planets in the series.

Agreed.

 

Why the hell would a Colonist, Spacer, or even Earthborn Shepard care about Earth? Why would we even care about Earth? We never even set foot on it until the final game. If anything, "Take back the Citadel" would have been a better theme and would have made far more sense. Earth could have been like a hub or something. 

[GalacticWolf5]

I didn't like that Bioware changed two original characters in ME3 from what they were in ME1 (Ashley Williams/Kaidan Alenko), I honestly do not care about sexual orientation of people. I feel that making the characters bisexual MIDWAY through the trilogy lost my connection with these characters. Kaidan just (to me) never seemed attracted to men but in ME3, he is an oversensitive goof. I felt that was out of character from the "manly man" he was in ME1. I never played as a female so I cannot speak for Ashley's change really affected her from what she portrayed as ME1. I would suggest keep every character for future games to be bisexual from the start (if we must appease the political correct).

Are saying a man in a gay relationship can't be manly? What?

Also, if its established in ME3 that Kaidan is bisexual, then he was in ME1 too. You just couldnt romance him as a male yet. Not every character has to show interest in Shep right off the bat.

(It seems like you're saying Ashley is bisexual too, but she's not. She's straight.)

[Linkenski]

My biggest problem: the visual inconsistency between ME1 & 2 -> ME3 was too big. I know ME3 was a graphical upgrade but it was just overly dark, they redid Joker, TIM, Anderson, Liara, etc. and they do look kind of better but... it's just not the same and Ithought ME2 was a decent graphical upgrade while it retained the character designs that looked like ME1. What's up with all the hair-dyes in ME3? How would I recognize Major Kirrahe when he doesn't look like Major Kirrahe at all? His face is compeltely dark-green now and it was just kind of green in ME1.

 

Yeah, and the writing in ME3 drives me up the wall with how groan-inducing and melodramatic it can be.

[Batarian Master Race]

Unless you don't like Batarians 

 

Reported.

[Seyd71]

Agreed.

 

Why the hell would a Colonist, Spacer, or even Earthborn Shepard care about Earth? Why would we even care about Earth? We never even set foot on it until the final game. If anything, "Take back the Citadel" would have been a better theme and would have made far more sense. Earth could have been like a hub or something. 

 

Honestly, It would've been cool to see the reapers move the Citadel somewhere else. For example, what if the Reapers moved it to Khar'shan? They conquered it first, and it would've been pretty interesting to fight on the citadel while looking at the ruined planet. Also, just realized, what happened to the Conduit? Did they ever remove that statue from the Citadel? Because if not, Shep pretty much has a back door in.

[Seyd71]

Are saying a man in a gay relationship can't be manly? What?

Also, if its established in ME3 that Kaidan is bisexual, then he was in ME1 too. You just couldnt romance him as a male yet. Not every character has to show interest in Shep right off the bat.

(It seems like you're saying Ashley is bisexual too, but she's not. She's straight.)

 

I dunno, I mean, I don't have a problem with him being bisexual, it's just that it felt like it came out of nowhere. I mean, they never really hint at it, his stories he tells you in ME1 involves him liking a girl, and in ME1 he only romances women.

[Seyd71]

Reported.

 

I can't dislike a video game race?

[Shechinah]

I can't dislike a video game race?

I think it is a joke based on their username

[Batarian Master Race]

Disliking Batarians was punishable by death in the Hegemony.

[Batarian Master Race]

...I should go.

[aoibhealfae]

Batarian romance art should be punishable by death.

 

 

don't touch my Kaidan!! die batarians!!!