424 réponses à ce sujet

[fraggle]

Not to mention their attempt to detonate the bomb on Tuchanka. WTH was that all about?

The only possible motive I can think of is that TIM was just trying to screw with Shepard's plans, and prevent Shepard from forging alliances among the various species.

 

I think that's exactly it.

If TIM can prevent the various species from working together, this will slow down the progress of the Crucible immensely. Or maybe he even thinks he can completely stop it. His personal goal was to control the Reapers, and he would never take the risk that Shepard destroys them by using the Crucible. Hence why he also flees to the Citadel and warns the Reapers after finding out what the Catalyst is. Since all his attempts to sabotage the Crucible failed, the Citadel was moved to Reaper-controlled space so it would be harder/impossible to move the Crucible there as well. And that he thought he could use the Catalyst to control the Reapers make his actions seem plausible for me. He did everything he could to stop Shepard from preventing him to control the Reapers.

At least that's my take on it.

[CathyMe]

It's a shame Cerberus was simply used as a secondary antagonist without actually integrating them in the story very well. They are there to break up the monotony of shooting husks to shooting Cerberus soldiers.

[Vazgen]

I think that's exactly it.

If TIM can prevent the various species from working together, this will slow down the progress of the Crucible immensely. Or maybe he even thinks he can completely stop it. His personal goal was to control the Reapers, and he would never take the risk that Shepard destroys them by using the Crucible. Hence why he also flees to the Citadel and warns the Reapers after finding out what the Catalyst is. Since all his attempts to sabotage the Crucible failed, the Citadel was moved to Reaper-controlled space so it would be harder/impossible to move the Crucible there as well. And that he thought he could use the Catalyst to control the Reapers make his actions seem plausible for me. He did everything he could to stop Shepard from preventing him to control the Reapers.

At least that's my take on it.

Yes, I think TIM planned to control the Reapers using only the research at Sanctuary but later in the game realized that the Crucible is required to amplify the signal. So he first tries to sabotage the Crucible construction, seeing it as a threat to his plans. But then he flees to the Citadel and waits for the Crucible to dock to put his plan in motion. Of course, he involuntarily informs Reapers of the Alliance plans and the Citadel is moved to Earth, forcing allied forces to dock the Crucible with fighting. 

[fraggle]

Yes, I think TIM planned to control the Reapers using only the research at Sanctuary but later in the game realized that the Crucible is required to amplify the signal. So he first tries to sabotage the Crucible construction, seeing it as a threat to his plans. But then he flees to the Citadel and waits for the Crucible to dock to put his plan in motion. Of course, he involuntarily informs Reapers of the Alliance plans and the Citadel is moved to Earth, forcing allied forces to dock the Crucible with fighting. 

 

But isn't TIM still talking about how he can control Reapers with just what he got from the Prothean VI (the Catalyst reveal) during Cronos, when the Citadel has already been moved? Doesn't that mean that TIM probably still didn't realise at this point that he can't control the Reapers without the Crucible?

[Vazgen]

But isn't TIM still talking about how he can control Reapers with just what he got from the Prothean VI (the Catalyst reveal) during Cronos, when the Citadel has already been moved? Doesn't that mean that TIM probably still didn't realise at this point that he can't control the Reapers without the Crucible?

IIRC, he explicitly states that thanks to the Prothean VI he now has the means to control the Reapers. Not the exact quote but the meaning was that, if I'm not mistaken.

[GalacticWolf5]

^^ TIM was indoctrinated by the Reapers. They used him. They made him believe he was fighting them and that he could control them, but what he was really doing was slowing us down so that we couldn't stop the Reapers.

[fraggle]

IIRC, he explicitly states that thanks to the Prothean VI he now has the means to control the Reapers. Not the exact quote but the meaning was that, if I'm not mistaken.

 

Ok, I've rewatched the scene Shep is talking about Sanctuary and TIMs progress there, but that this is still different than controlling an actual Reaper.

Then TIM: "But thanks to the Prothean VI, I have what I need to make it a reality."

Shepard: "The Catalyst."

TIM: "Yes."

 

So he believes that only the Catalyst/Citadel is needed to take control of the Reapers, but the Crucible had nothing to do with TIM's plans, he considers it only as the weapon to destroy the Reapers. He tells Shepard again that destroying the Reapers would be a mistake, so doesn't that indicate that he didn't know that the Crucible's energy would also be needed for Control?

 

^^ TIM was indoctrinated by the Reapers. They used him. They made him believe he was fighting them and that he could control them, but what he was really doing was slowing us down so that we couldn't stop the Reapers.

 

Yes, of course I agree, but the question is, to what extent? Why did the Reapers attack Sanctuary if they had him fully "under control"? What TIM has done there seemed to have forced them to take action against him. Or does this belong to their plan after all, to make TIM feel like he still has the upper hand?

[Pasquale1234]

Ok, I've rewatched the scene Shep is talking about Sanctuary and TIMs progress there, but that this is still different than controlling an actual Reaper.
Then TIM: "But thanks to the Prothean VI, I have what I need to make it a reality."
Shepard: "The Catalyst."
TIM: "Yes."
 
So he believes that only the Catalyst/Citadel is needed to take control of the Reapers, but the Crucible had nothing to do with TIM's plans, he considers it only as the weapon to destroy the Reapers. He tells Shepard again that destroying the Reapers would be a mistake, so doesn't that indicate that he didn't know that the Crucible's energy would also be needed for Control?

I always figured that TIM expected his research efforts at Sanctuary would give him the technology needed to control the reapers. I don't believe he knew (or suspected) that the Catalyst/Crucible enabled any options beyond destroying them.
 

Yes, of course I agree, but the question is, to what extent? Why did the Reapers attack Sanctuary if they had him fully "under control"? What TIM has done there seemed to have forced them to take action against him. Or does this belong to their plan after all, to make TIM feel like he still has the upper hand?

It's odd - Saren also did some research into indoctrination - maybe the reapers would have tried to stop him, too, if they had been in-galaxy at the time.

Also, his motives for the Citadel coup attempt were never fully explained. Maybe he was trying to interfere with other galactic powers, or take control of the mass relay network.

[Vazgen]

 

Ok, I've rewatched the scene   Shep is talking about Sanctuary and TIMs progress there, but that this is still different than controlling an actual Reaper.

Then TIM: "But thanks to the Prothean VI, I have what I need to make it a reality."

Shepard: "The Catalyst."

TIM: "Yes."

 

So he believes that only the Catalyst/Citadel is needed to take control of the Reapers, but the Crucible had nothing to do with TIM's plans, he considers it only as the weapon to destroy the Reapers. He tells Shepard again that destroying the Reapers would be a mistake, so doesn't that indicate that he didn't know that the Crucible's energy would also be needed for Control?

True, forgot about those lines. An idea - he thinks that he can use the research at the Sanctuary in conjunction with the Catalyst to control the Reapers. But when on the Citadel, his vision changes. "The Crucible can control them. I know it can.", "I've dedicated my life to understanding the Reapers, and I know with certainty, the Crucible will allow me to control them". I guess that's when Reapers take full control. 

 

Yes, of course I agree, but the question is, to what extent? Why did the Reapers attack Sanctuary if they had him fully "under control"? What TIM has done there seemed to have forced them to take action against him. Or does this belong to their plan after all, to make TIM feel like he still has the upper hand?

Maybe the attack was aimed to destroy the research data? So the allied forces don't get the means to control Reaper troops. The ones conducting the experiments were not indoctrinated IIRC. Having a non-indoctrinated person to possess such knowledge is a risk.

[Gago]

I don't hate anything except the bug in ME1 so these are the things I dislike/that bothered me.

 

ME1 

1. Overheating bug

2. Clunky combat

 

ME2

1. The Citadel sucked

 

ME3

1. One hubworld (the Citadel)

2. Very linear

3. The quest log was terrible

4. Cerberus became one-dimensional generic enemy

5. The fate of the Collector base... so disappointing

6. No final boss

7. RNG loot in MP (I understand why but I still don't like it)

 

Heh, the third game got most dislikes even though it is my favorite one.

[fraggle]

I always figured that TIM expected his research efforts at Sanctuary would give him the technology needed to control the reapers. I don't believe he knew (or suspected) that the Catalyst/Crucible enabled any options beyond destroying them.
 

It's odd - Saren also did some research into indoctrination - maybe the reapers would have tried to stop him, too, if they had been in-galaxy at the time.

Also, his motives for the Citadel coup attempt were never fully explained. Maybe he was trying to interfere with other galactic powers, or take control of the mass relay network.

 

Yeah, I guess so, he was looking for more conventional methods to control them. However, what Vazgen says is also plausible.

Funnily enough I just read up about Saren on the Indoctrination wiki, Sovereign used the implants he put into Saren to control him more efficiently, but only after Saren considered what Shepard said to him on Virmire about being indoctrinated. So maybe as long as an indoctrinated person doesn't realise there's indoctrination going on, the Reapers might not object to any research into this topic. But as soon as they start realising, them breaking free of the indoctrination is a too high risk.

 

True, forgot about those lines. An idea - he thinks that he can use the research at the Sanctuary in conjunction with the Catalyst to control the Reapers. But when on the Citadel, his vision changes. "The Crucible can control them. I know it can.", "I've dedicated my life to understanding the Reapers, and I know with certainty, the Crucible will allow me to control them". I guess that's when Reapers take full control. 

 

 

Maybe the attack was aimed to destroy the research data? So the allied forces don't get the means to control Reaper troops. The ones conducting the experiments were not indoctrinated IIRC. Having a non-indoctrinated person to possess such knowledge is a risk.

 

Interesting ideas, could be I guess TIM could have really gotten what he wanted from the VI already directly after Thessia. He broke through the VI's security protocols after all, didn't he?

 

Indoctrination is a cool and interesting topic, but for me also a bit of a tough one. Being so subtle, I never know how far it can actually reach, who is doing what why, or rather is someone still doing something of their own accord, or are they already too indoctrinated?

With TIM, it's especially tough. The comics show he's been indoctrinated for a very long time, but then it must be a very subtle, "light" indoctrination, I guess? We've seen what happened to other indoctrinated victims, like on the derelict Reaper. So there must be a bunch of different indoctrination levels, which makes it harder to see through this whole thing.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

^^ TIM was indoctrinated by the Reapers. They used him. They made him believe he was fighting them and that he could control them, but what he was really doing was slowing us down so that we couldn't stop the Reapers.

 

No, TIM was his own, and he found the way to control them without their influence.

 

The Reapers raided Sanctuary for a reason -- it was a threat.

[themikefest]

Also, his motives for the Citadel coup attempt were never fully explained. Maybe he was trying to interfere with other galactic powers, or take control of the mass relay network.

If the Citadel coup and Thessia missions are switched it makes sense. Cerberus heads to Thessia and gets the VI and after the geth/quarians are taken care of, TIM attacks the Citadel after learning the Citadel is the catalyst. Shepard stops the coup. Shepard goes to Horizon. As the Alliance attacks Chronos, the reapers move the Citadel to Earth.

[KotorEffect3]

These kind of threads

[Seyd71]

These kind of threads

 

Hey, it's resulting in good conversations and no one is trying to destroy other members and/or promote their LI in creepy ways, so good enough for me.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

He's never quite been on his own for decades. It's like Saren... allowed to keep his higher cognitive abilities for as long as they need it, but ultimately in their control. His attempts at Sanctuary are just as futile as Saren's research into indoctrination. He doesn't know how screwed he is in the long run.

 

Yes, that is the conventional-wisdom behind TIM's indoctrination.

 

 

I, however, reject it. It is just as misunderstood as the ending IMO.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I don't think The Illusive Man was indoctrinated until the very end. Unlike Saren who was a tool for the Reapers and was actively seeking to bring them back into the galaxy, TIM was trying to unlock their knowledge and use that to defeat them. He knew they were light years ahead of us technologically and only by understanding their technology could we stand a chance of winning. He had a different view of what victory would look like. His view was not to destroy them and destroy their technology, but to harness it.

 

I believe he injected himself with reaper nanides in a misguided thought that it would help him channel the reaper control signal and control the reapers himself. That's when he lost control, and the reapers took control.

 

The Illusive Man was a tragic figure who through his own faults met his downfall.

[Iakus]

I don't think The Illusive Man was indoctrinated until the very end. Unlike Saren who was a tool for the Reapers and was actively seeking to bring them back into the galaxy, TIM was trying to unlock their knowledge and use that to defeat them. He knew they were light years ahead of us technologically and only by understanding their technology could we stand a chance of winning. He had a different view of what victory would look like. His view was not to destroy them and destroy their technology, but to harness it.

 

I believe he injected himself with reaper nanides in a misguided thought that it would help him channel the reaper control signal and control the reapers himself. That's when he lost control, and the reapers took control.

 

The Illusive Man was a tragic figure who through his own faults met his downfall.

I guess that's another failure of ME3.  It's never clear when TIM went from mad scientist with a God-complex to sock-puppet for the Reapers.

[AlanC9]

I guess that's another failure of ME3.  It's never clear when TIM went from mad scientist with a God-complex to sock-puppet for the Reapers.

I'm not sure that's a problem. Indoctrination isn't portrayed as just throwing a switch. Moving from not-indoctrinated to indoctrinated is a gradual process, isn't it? That was what I took away from the Reaper IFF mission, anyway.

[GalacticWolf5]

TIM was indoctrinated. He was affected by a Reaper artifact during the First Contact War (his eyes became like Husk's), he got Reaper tech implanted in himself and all his troops and Cerberus was constantly experimenting with Reaper tech. If that's not enough for you to realize that he was indoctrinated, the Catalyst says it when it explains the Control ending.

[Vazgen]

With TIM, it's especially tough. The comics show he's been indoctrinated for a very long time, but then it must be a very subtle, "light" indoctrination, I guess? We've seen what happened to other indoctrinated victims, like on the derelict Reaper. So there must be a bunch of different indoctrination levels, which makes it harder to see through this whole thing.

I have a theory on this. Like, if the source of the Reaper signal is removed, indoctrination process stops/slows. So when Saren destroyed the Arca Monolith the signal stopped and TIM was able to work against the Reapers in ME2. But then in ME3 he gets pieces of the human Reaper on his station and signal is reestablished. He starts to dream of control, establishes the Sanctuary, tries to sabotage Alliance plans all while still thinking that he works against the Reapers. And then comes the final stage, implants. 

[Batarian Master Race]

ME1

Inventory system requiring me to make sure all my crew is wearing the best possible trousers.

Tech power grenades sticking around when you fire them

The Mining Laser/Hostile AI "minigames"

The tedious shooting of the Luna Neural Clusters

Geth Hoppers

Both of the major fights while rescuing Liara

Getting majorly lost on Ilos

Pistols being better than assault rifles

Not being able to kill inactive Thorian Creepers and taking a fistful of plantzombie up the rump.

 

ME2

Resource Mining

Using fuel to travel

Not being able to recruit crew in any order

Ashley's Horizon moment (I'm actually okay with Kaiden doing it)

The conversation between the human and elcor playing EVERY TIME I walk by Afterlife.

Garrus's mouth being transparent during his loyalty.

 

ME3

 

don't even get me started

[Iakus]

I'm not sure that's a problem. Indoctrination isn't portrayed as just throwing a switch. Moving from not-indoctrinated to indoctrinated is a gradual process, isn't it? That was what I took away from the Reaper IFF mission, anyway.

True, but so much of what TIM did was nonsensical.  Was it all part of a clever plot, or was he being unwittingly self-destructive?  How long have the Reapers been working at him?   

 

In other words, I wish I had a better idea of what point he was being a Magnificent Bastard and when he was Brainwashed and Crazy.  It might have made his motivations at times more comprehensible.