424 réponses à ce sujet

[DuskWanderer]

Yeah, but she can let he hair down after missions. Don't ruin my head canon. I picked it on purpose.

 

Let's face the facts - Character development in ME1 was not a priority. Kaidan: I'm playing an adept and know nothing about Jump Zero or Brain Camp. His dialogue in ME1 was just horrid. He was a walking codex like the others. The only one who wasn't a walking codex was Ashley. Why? Because she was supposed to be the primary LI for male players. But Liara tried to upstage her with the damsel in distress act. Plus if you wanted good love scenes you romanced Liara because like it or not, she is the canon love interest.

 

That's another thing I hated: Liara forced on us as the canon love interest. 

[GalacticWolf5]

Are you? I mean, there is nothing in the lore that supports your statement here. It is just a conclusion that you and many other fans have jumped to.

 

Dude, we literally see his eyes changing after he's hit by energy from the Monolith, a Reaper artifact.

 

Nothing before their arrival indicates that he was doing their bidding -- just about everything he did was counterproductive to their goals.

 

I didn't say they were controlling him during ME2. Actually you know what? He was probably influenced by them even back then. You know, him hearing voices and having visions of the Reapers is pretty weird.. sounds like subtle indoctrination. But anyways, I'm saying that during the 6 months between ME2 and ME3, the Reapers started using him.

 

 Cerberus itself was set up with the purpose of fighting the Reapers, all of its working contributing to achieving those ends. Don't believe me? The manifesto makes an obvious allusion to the Reapers.

 

Absolutely not. The manifesto talks about aliens (not the Reapers) coming through the Charon Relay. Cerberus was created to protect humanity from aliens and ensure our place in the stars. I suggest you read up on the lore.

 

Hell, his actions through most of ME3 do not indicate indoctrination, either. If TIM's goal of controlling the Reapers was not feasible or somehow desirable (as lots of IT'ers comically believe) to them, they would not have responded to Sanctuary as they did.

 

Literally everything TIM does in ME3 isnt helping us, it's slowing us down. TIM thinks that he's in control, but he's not. He thinks he's saving us, but he's making us lose.

 

 Also, Vendetta. We know he does not give away information to indoctrinated individuals. Where did we find him after Thessia? TIM's office.

 

Vendetta was hacked. Pay more attention to the game.

 

Funny that you bring him up. Remember what he says when Kai Leng enters the temple in Priority: Thessia? ''Indoctrinated presence detected.''

 

Kai Leng is indoctrinated, just like every other Cerberus troop and TIM.

 

Oh and by the way, what does TIM do after learning that the Citadel is the Catalyst? He alerts the Reapers. Wow that sure is gonna make us win the war! Thank you TIM! You're such a non-indoctrinated hero!

 

 Yes, he was indoctrinated ... toward the end of ME3. By then he had thought what he got from Sanctuary would grant him immunity from indoctrination when he implanted himself. He was wrong. Before he implanted himself, though, he was himself.

 

Just face it man, he was indoctrinated all along.

[GalacticWolf5]

That's another thing I hated: Liara forced on us as the canon love interest. 

 

There's no canon love interest.

[GalacticWolf5]

Shepard's had much of what you say as well.

 

That's not really an indication of indoctrination just yet. Just that he's been exposed. 

 

Oh I never said that Shepard was indoctrinated. He clearly isn't.

 

The eyes could just be cybernetic implants. Nobody ever says anything, and it's not brought up as a plot point in the games at all.

 

 

The eyes aren't cybernetic implants. We see his eyes changing after being aftected by the Reaper artifact.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

RE Liara as canon LI - her love scene gets more camera time than the others in both ME1 and ME3. That's why I say she's the canon LI.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

One other thing that's bothered me.... Do you remember that data packet we picked up on Omega Cluster/Fathar System/Lorek for Cerberus in ME2? We never found out what was in it. If we kept it EDI couldn't decipher it for two years, which would have been about the time when the reapers invaded. And if we gave it to the alliance they never told us either. Of course Cerberus wouldn't tell us, nor did we get a bonus for turning it over to them.

 

What was in that packet?

[GalacticWolf5]

RE Liara as canon LI - her love scene gets more camera time than the others in both ME1 and ME3. That's why I say she's the canon LI.

 

Her being the canon LI would mean that everyone romanced her whether they like it or not. I didn't romance her. Liara simply got more screen time because she's the ''hot blue space babe'' as many people like to call her. She and her whole species are basically fan-service. It's a pity.

 

I would've liked her better if she wasn't so forced onto the player.

[Mordokai]

RE Liara as canon LI - her love scene gets more camera time than the others in both ME1 and ME3. That's why I say she's the canon LI.

 

So not complaining...

[God]

Oh I never said that Shepard was indoctrinated. He clearly isn't.

 

 

The eyes aren't cybernetic implants. We see his eyes changing after being aftected by the Reaper artifact.

 

Then your point about TIM is a non sequiter and draws its credibility into question.

 

You're making quite a large leap in logic to assert a conclusion that is, at best, ambiguous and contentious with other material in the universe (including the games). At worst, it's just plain headcanon.

[GalacticWolf5]

Then your point about TIM is a non sequiter and draws its credibility into question.

 

Shepard was affected by a Reaper artifact too (Object Rho), maybe that's how he got the eyes too. Shepard probably didn't get indoctrinated because he has a strong enough will (because yes, if you didn't know, it's possible to resist indoctrination). I really don't see how my point loses credibility. Two different characters, two different situations.

 

You're making quite a large leap in logic to assert a conclusion that is, at best, ambiguous and contentious with other material in the universe (including the games). At worst, it's just plain headcanon.

 

Are you serious? You're saying that TIM being indoctrinated is just a headcanon of mine? Man, go read my previous posts again. Everything I've said is proof that he was indoctrinated. Read the comics and play the game, you'll see that I'm right.

[God]

Shepard was affected by a Reaper artifact too (Object Rho), maybe that's how he got the eyes too. Shepard probably didn't get indoctrinated because he has a strong enough will (because yes, if you didn't know, it's possible to resist indoctrination). I really don't see how my point loses credibility. Two different characters, two different situations.

 

 

Are you serious? You're saying that TIM being indoctrinated is just a headcanon of mine? Man, go read my previous posts again. Everything I've said is proof that he was indoctrinated. Read the comics and play the game, you'll see that I'm right.

 

Shepard's had a lot more exposure to Reaper tech than just Object Rho. He's had just about all of the same experiences as you gave to TIM, and in a much more condensed period of time. You're comparing one situation to several connected situations in the same time and calling it something more. It's not. 

 

Yes, I'm serious. That's what you're saying, not me. I'm saying that TIM is definitely indoctrinated in ME3. In ME2 and prior? Not likely. Nothing you've said is proof, especially when events in the series up to and including the end game make your points ambiguous. It's a matter of debate, yes, but not a matter of proofing. Having done both multiple times, I've seen no correlation at all from your point to your conclusion. 

[Vazgen]

TIM's contact with Reaper artifact was more direct than Shepard's.

Spoiler

He touched his friend who touched the artifact. The Arca Monolith transformed anyone who touched it in a Reaper husk in the matter of seconds. It transformed TIM's eyes (shown in the codex), TIM started to hear the artifact from across the galaxy (Arcturus to Ilium), started to understand the script that Reaper husks written in a temple on Palaven.

Here are his eyes in the comic:

Shepard never had that close contact with Reaper artifact. Object Rho comes close but it's still not as direct as TIM's. And Shepard's eyes are cybernetic implants from the Lazarus Project as evidenced by them disappearing when performing surgery at med-bay (there was no direct interaction with Reaper tech prior to his death).

 

The comic indicates that TIM was indoctrinated by the Reaper artifact. But the artifact

Spoiler

was destroyed by Saren

and that (headcanon starts) could've stopped/slowed the process of indoctrination. That's why he was able to work against the Reapers in Mass Effect 2. But when he moved pieces of the Human Reaper to his base, the process's speed increased and he started to play into the Reaper hands/tentacles/whatever... 

(headcanon ends)

[GalacticWolf5]

Shepard's had a lot more exposure to Reaper tech than just Object Rho.

 

Yeah I know that, I meant that it was similar. Object Rho is the only Reaper artifact that really affected Shepard (wave of energy that hit him and gave him visions of the Reapers' arrival). TIM was also hit by energy coming from the Monolith and he also got visions of the Reapers, hell he even heard them in his head.

 

He's had just about all of the same experiences as you gave to TIM, and in a much more condensed period of time.

 

Shepard didn't implant Reaper tech in himself like TIM did. He didnt implant Reaper tech in his whole squad like TIM did with his troops. Anyways, as I've said before, some people can resist indoctrination (like Paul Grayson or the Rachni Queen).

 

I'm saying that TIM is definitely indoctrinated in ME3. In ME2 and prior? Not likely. Nothing you've said is proof, especially when events in the series up to and including the end game make your points ambiguous. It's a matter of debate, yes, but not a matter of proofing. Having done both multiple times, I've seen no correlation at all from your point to your conclusion.

 

It's said in the game that he and all his troops are indoctrinated. Nothing is ambiguous about this, it's explicitely said in the game. In ME2 and prior, it's arguable that he was influenced by the Reapers but still had his free will. He had visions of the Reapers, he heard them in his head, he had Reaper tech in his eyes, those are all pretty good signs of indoctrination. I'm not saying that the Reaper controlled him during ME2, just that he might've been a little bit influenced by them, which is still indoctrination. Indoctrination can be very subtle.

 

If you don't see any correlation, then you need to read about the lore because clearly you've missed somethings about indoctrination, Reaper tech/artifacts and TIM.

[GalacticWolf5]

And Shepard's eyes are cybernetic implants from the Lazarus Project as evidenced by them disappearing when performing surgery at med-bay (there was no direct interaction with Reaper tech prior to his death)

 

Oh I know When I talk about Shep's eyes, I mean the ones he has in the Control and Synthesis endings. But yeah it's very possible that he didn't have them before and got them while he was ''Reaperized'' in Control, but why does he have them in Synthesis? Because of the Reaper tech used to dissolve him? I guess it could also make sense.

[Vazgen]

Oh I know When I talk about Shep's eyes, I mean the ones he has in the Control and Synthesis endings. But yeah it's very possible that he didn't have them before and got them while he was ''Reaperized'' in Control, but why does he have them in Synthesis? Because of the Reaper tech used to dissolve him? I guess it would also make sense.

He always has them. Control and Synthesis disintegrate the flesh and the implants become visible. Med-bay surgery is purely cosmetic, the implants are still there. 

[GalacticWolf5]

He always has them. Control and Synthesis disintegrate the flesh and the implants become visible. Med-bay surgery is purely cosmetic, the implants are still there. 

 

I didn't think they were the same. His implants look like this:

 

Spoiler

 

And the eyes in Control/Synthesis look like this:

 

Spoiler

 

They're reversed.

(EDIT:Same thing happens to TIM. His eyes in the comics are like the top image, and in the games they're like the bottom image. That's weird.)

 

Also, isn't a bit weird that, if the eyes really are just implants, they look exactly like TIM's Reaper eyes?

[Xamufam]

How can you kill of a civilization type 2

How can you kill an entire civilization in space

why are reaper's used to attack when they are the last remnents of a civilization they where trying to protect

The crucible

How can life survive gamma ray bursts

these are just a few things I have a problem with

[Xamufam]

I didn't think they were the same. His implants look like this:

 

Spoiler

 

And the eyes in Control/Synthesis look like this:

 

Spoiler

 

They're reversed.

(EDIT:Same thing happens to TIM. His eyes in the comics are like the top image, and in the games they're like the bottom image. That's weird.)

 

Also, isn't a bit weird that, if the eyes really are just implants, they look exactly like TIM's Reaper eyes?

Shepards indoctrination was removed 2 months before release

http://forum.bioware...t-was-scrapped/

[Vazgen]

I didn't think they were the same. His implants look like this:

 

Spoiler

 

And the eyes in Control/Synthesis look like this:

 

Spoiler

 

They're reversed.

(EDIT:Same thing happens to TIM. His eyes in the comics are like the top image, and in the games they're like the bottom image. That's weird.)

 

Also, isn't a bit weird that, if the eyes really are just implants, they look exactly like TIM's Reaper eyes?

I guess the implants rotate or something. EDI's eyes have the same pattern

Spoiler

[GalacticWolf5]

Shepards indoctrination was removed 2 months before release

http://forum.bioware...t-was-scrapped/

 

Please let's not get into Indoctrination Thoery, thank you. (And wasn't it proven false by devs anyways? I'm sure I remember a tweet or something about it)

[Mouser]

TIM was indoctrinated from the first time we see him.

 

Remember that the early stages of indoctrination are subtle (see: Saren).  Mass Effect 2? The whole 'defeat the collectors' thing wasn't to save human colonies, it was to get a hold of more reaper tech so he could learn to 'control' them (which results in all Cerberus soldiers becoming Reaper slaves). The same pattern played out in the Prothean cycle, where some thought they could use/control the Reapers.

 

Even Sanctuary ultimately benefited the Reapers. Sure, they had to go clean house eventually, but how many humans got processed in the meantime? Every division they can put between the races makes their job of harvesting easier.

[Xamufam]

Please let's not get into Indoctrination Thoery, thank you. (And wasn't it proven false by devs anyways? I'm sure I remember a tweet or something about it)

it's not Indoctrination Theory

From thefinalhourapp http://me3finalhours.com/
On Deciding the End of the Game:
The illusive man boss
fight had been scrapped... but there was still much debate. 'One night
Walters scribbled down some thought on various ways the game could end
with the line "Lots of speculation for Everyone!" at the bottom of the
page.'

In truth the final bits of dialogue were debated right up
until the end of 2011. Martin Sheen's voice-over session for the
illusive man, originally scheduled for August, was delayed until
mid-November so the writers would have more time to finesse the ending.

And
even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an
endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's
movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped
because the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement
alongside dialogue choices).

[GalacticWolf5]

I guess the implants rotate or something. EDI's eyes have the same pattern

Spoiler

 

Alright I'm so confused now

 

So if I'm correct:

TIM's eyes are the result of exposure to the Monolith and are therefore not implants.

 

Shepard's eyes are implants from the Lazarus Project. When choosing the Control or Synthesis endings, they become blue because of the Reaper tech used to accomplish our choice.

 

EDI's eyes are synthetic.

 

But all three have the same pattern? That's really weird

[Vazgen]

Alright I'm so confused now

 

So if I'm correct:

TIM's eyes are the result of exposure to the Monolith and are therefore not implants.

 

Shepard's eyes are implants from the Lazarus Project. When choosing the Control or Synthesis endings, they become blue because of the Reaper tech used to accomplish our choice.

 

EDI's eyes are synthetic.

 

But all three have the same pattern? That's really weird

One explanation is - reused assets

Another, that the tech is the same. EDIbot was created by Cerberus, Shepard was implanted by Cerberus. TIM leads Cerberus, probably examined his eyes and gained knowledge about their technology and used it in EDI and Shepard. The implants are not necessarily Reaper tech, but they were probably made on its basis. Like pretty much everything in MEU. "Your civilizations develop along the paths we desire".

As for why do they get blue in both Control and Synthesis, no idea. The cybernetics probably reflect Shepard's state of mind which is (as indicated by his expression) peace. They are red when Shepard's mind state is Renegade which is not peaceful IMO.

Is there a video of Renegade-scarred Shepard choosing Synthesis?