424 réponses à ce sujet

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Nobody ever says anything, and it's not brought up as a plot point in the games at all.

Right? If this is such an "obvious" sign of indoctrination then why does nobody else point it out?

[GalacticWolf5]

One explanation is - reused assets

 

That's very possible. Reusing assets is something that Bioware does a lot.

 

Another, that the tech is the same. EDIbot was created by Cerberus, Shepard was implanted by Cerberus. TIM leads Cerberus, probably examined his eyes and gained knowledge about their technology and used it in EDI and Shepard. The implants are not necessarily Reaper tech, but they were probably made on its basis. Like pretty much everything in MEU. "Your civilizations develop along the paths we desire".

 

That's a very plausible explanation. I like it.

 

As for why do they get blue in both Control and Synthesis, no idea. The cybernetics probably reflect Shepard's state of mind which is (as indicated by his expression) peace. They are red when Shepard's mind state is Renegade which is not peaceful IMO.

Is there a video of Renegade-scarred Shepard choosing Synthesis?

 

Well here's how they look in Control:

 

Spoiler

 

Only the center stays red.

[Vazgen]

Well here's how they look in Control:

 

Spoiler

 

Only the center stays red.

Not fully peaceful, huh?

Spoiler

I'm interested in how they look in Synthesis, since Control has variations based on Shepard's morality. Will probably look the same though. Kinda interesting, like Renegade Shepard is not that accepting of the situation

[GalacticWolf5]

Right? If this is such an "obvious" sign of indoctrination then why does nobody else point it out?

 

Who else has eyes like TIM's? Shep's are just implants apparently, so the answer is no one.

 

Characters in game don't know that his eyes are Reaper tech, but the players know from reading the comics.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Dude, we literally see his eyes changing after he's hit by energy from the Monolith, a Reaper artifact.

So what? That does not make his eyes Reaper-tech as you are claiming.

All it proves is that they were affected, not that the effects go beyond anything purely cosmetic.

 

I didn't say they were controlling him during ME2. Actually you know what? He was probably influenced by them even back then. You know, him hearing voices and having visions of the Reapers is pretty weird.. sounds like subtle indoctrination. But anyways, I'm saying that during the 6 months between ME2 and ME3, the Reapers started using him.

Making up facts again, are we?

Oh, and that reminds me: in the ME novels, the perspective of Paul Grayson clearly depicts the Reapers in his mind.

The same is not true of TIM's perspective in the same novels.

 

Oh, and I suppose Shepard is indoctrinated too because after exposure to 'Rho he had visions and heard their voice.

 

Absolutely not. The manifesto talks about aliens (not the Reapers) coming through the Charon Relay. Cerberus was created to protect humanity from aliens and ensure our place in the stars. I suggest you read up on the lore.

 

The Reapers *are* aliens. And to protect humanity from them, they would have to be fought.

I suggest you read up on how to put 2 and 2 together.

 

Literally everything TIM does in ME3 isnt helping us, it's slowing us down. TIM thinks that he's in control, but he's not. He thinks he's saving us, but he's making us lose.

If TIM was making the Reapers win, the Reapers would not have tried to stop the things he was doing.

And yet they did.
 

Kai Leng is indoctrinated, just like every other Cerberus troop

Yes, we all know that. TIM's goal made that risk acceptable. Do you understand how, or do I have to spell things out yet again?
 

Just face it man, he was indoctrinated all along.

Just face that I am not buying what you are selling.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Who else has eyes like TIM's?

Saren
Husks
EDI
 

the answer is no one.

Hmm...

[GalacticWolf5]

I'm interested in how they look in Synthesis, since Control has variations based on Shepard's morality. Will probably look the same though. Kinda interesting, like Renegade Shepard is not that accepting of the situation

 

Yeah they look the same

 

Spoiler

[Vazgen]

Saren
Husks
EDI

Saren: Link

Husks

Spoiler

Not the same as TIM.

[GalacticWolf5]

So what? That does not make his eyes Reaper-tech as you are claiming.

All it proves is that they were affected, not that the effects go beyond anything purely cosmetic.

 

His eyes were changed by a Reaper artifact, just like how Humans are changed into Husks by Reaper tech, unless those are purely cosmetic changes too....

 

Making up facts again, are we?

Oh, and that reminds me: in the ME novels, the perspective of Paul Grayson clearly depicts the Reapers in his mind.

The same is not true of TIM's perspective in the same novels.

 

Oh, and I suppose Shepard is indoctrinated too because after exposure to 'Rho he had visions and heard their voice.

 

I'm not making up facts, go read the freaking comics.

 

I also said that some people can resist to indoctrination, which is a fact.

 

The Reapers *are* aliens. And to protect humanity from them, they would have to be fought.

I suggest you read up on how to put 2 and 2 together.

 

I won't even bother with this....

 

If TIM was making the Reapers win, the Reapers would not have tried to stop the things he was doing.

And yet they did.

 

You mean Sanctuary, the experiments done by Henry Lawson? Easily explainable, Reapers give TIM the impression that he still has control of himself and that he will stop the Reapers, yet he really doesn't. The Reapers probably didn't think Henry would be successful, but when he is they don't want this info to spread and so they destroy it. Maybe Henry wasn't indoctrinated.

 

Just face that I am not buying what you are selling.

 

Alright buddy, we are done here. I'm tired of going in circles with this. Believe whatever you want to believe.

[GalacticWolf5]

TIM was a sleeper agent. That's the last thing I have to say about this.

[Mouser]

You mean Sanctuary, the experiments done by Henry Lawson? Easily explainable, Reapers give TIM the impression that he still has control of himself and that he will stop the Reapers, yet he really doesn't. The Reapers probably didn't think Henry would be successful, but when he is they don't want this info to spread and so they destroy it. Maybe Henry wasn't indoctrinated.

 

 

Easier explanation: The Reapers knew exactly what was going to happen. Remember, they've seen this play many times over all the  cycles that they've existed. The names may change, but the song remains the same. At least until Shepard takes the stage.

 

They guided Sanctuary because it furthered their aims of dividing humanity. When it ceased to be useful, they destroyed it.

[God]

Shepard didn't implant Reaper tech in himself like TIM did. He didnt implant Reaper tech in his whole squad like TIM did with his troops. Anyways, as I've said before, some people can resist indoctrination (like Paul Grayson or the Rachni Queen).

 

 

 

That's not the argument though. I'm saying TIM wasn't indoctrinated prior to ME3 (or shortly before). I'm saying that TIM wasn't indoctrinated by the artifact. If you argue that he was, then you'd have to accept that Shepard was as well. Especially prolonged exposure. Shepard may not have had direct physical exposure (which he actual did, considering that he was hit by a literal energy wave from the artifact), but he was exposed to it for a period of days. TIM meanwhile had exposure, yes. But you'll have to explain how he was implanted with Reaper technology so early on in the comics. The argument is whether or not TIM was indoctrinated prior to ME3. My argument is no. Your argument is yes. Let's keep it here and not get sidetracked, shall we?

 

It's said in the game that he and all his troops are indoctrinated. Nothing is ambiguous about this, it's explicitely said in the game. In ME2 and prior, it's arguable that he was influenced by the Reapers but still had his free will. He had visions of the Reapers, he heard them in his head, he had Reaper tech in his eyes, those are all pretty good signs of indoctrination. I'm not saying that the Reaper controlled him during ME2, just that he might've been a little bit influenced by them, which is still indoctrination. Indoctrination can be very subtle.

 

 

 

Which circles back to my point. No one is denying that TIM was indoctrinated. I am denying that he was indoctrinated as early as you say, and contesting your argument that 'TIM was indoctrinated, but Shepard wasn't'. What you're saying applies to Shepard. If TIM was indoctrinated, then, simply put, so was Shepard. And if you deny that, you're being hypocritical. Shepard had the visions. He heard them in his head. As for the ocular implants, I still dispute that it's Reaper tech. You'll have to explain how it is Reaper tech, and how it got there. It doesn't just spontaneously appear out of nowhere. It had to come from something, and TIM was never shown having been physically exposed to Reaper tech in such a way that would intrude within him (until he implanted himself in ME3). 

 

If you don't see any correlation, then you need to read about the lore because clearly you've missed somethings about indoctrination, Reaper tech/artifacts and TIM.

 

 

I have read the lore in its entirety. I'm not missing anything. What I'm seeing is hypocrisy on your part. If TIM was indoctrinated, then so was Shepard. If Shepard wasn't, then TIM wasn't (excluding ME3). And you need to stop making the word 'indoctrination' mean what you want it to mean. Is it control, or influence? Make up your mind.

[God]

TIM was a sleeper agent. That's the last thing I have to say about this.

 

Then, simply put, what you have to say is wrong.

[GalacticWolf5]

That's not the argument though. I'm saying TIM wasn't indoctrinated prior to ME3 (or shortly before). I'm saying that TIM wasn't indoctrinated by the artifact. If you argue that he was, then you'd have to accept that Shepard was as well. Especially prolonged exposure. Shepard may not have had direct physical exposure (which he actual did, considering that he was hit by a literal energy wave from the artifact), but he was exposed to it for a period of days. TIM meanwhile had exposure, yes. But you'll have to explain how he was implanted with Reaper technology so early on in the comics. The argument is whether or not TIM was indoctrinated prior to ME3. My argument is no. Your argument is yes. Let's keep it here and not get sidetracked, shall we?

 

Which circles back to my point. No one is denying that TIM was indoctrinated. I am denying that he was indoctrinated as early as you say, and contesting your argument that 'TIM was indoctrinated, but Shepard wasn't'. What you're saying applies to Shepard. If TIM was indoctrinated, then, simply put, so was Shepard. And if you deny that, you're being hypocritical. Shepard had the visions. He heard them in his head. As for the ocular implants, I still dispute that it's Reaper tech. You'll have to explain how it is Reaper tech, and how it got there. It doesn't just spontaneously appear out of nowhere. It had to come from something, and TIM was never shown having been physically exposed to Reaper tech in such a way that would intrude within him (until he implanted himself in ME3). 

 

I have read the lore in its entirety. I'm not missing anything. What I'm seeing is hypocrisy on your part. If TIM was indoctrinated, then so was Shepard. If Shepard wasn't, then TIM wasn't (excluding ME3).

 

Is there something you don't understand in ''some people can resist indoctrination''? I'm not being hypocritical.

 

TIM's eyes turned into what they are now when he was affected by the artifact. I never said that his eyes were implants, since the beginning I've been saying they changed because of the artifact.

 

And you need to stop making the word 'indoctrination' mean what you want it to mean. Is it control, or influence? Make up your mind.

 

It's both, genius. For someone who says he knows the lore, it really doesn't seem like you do.

 

Then, simply put, what you have to say is wrong.

 

TIM was a sleeper agent up until ME3. He wasn't aware of it and when the Reapers arrived they started controlling him.

[God]

Is there something you don't understand in ''some people can resist indoctrination''? I'm not being hypocritical.

 

TIM's eyes turned into what they are now when he was affected by the artifact. I never said that his eyes were implants, since the beginning I've been saying they changed because of the artifact.

 

 

 

 

No, there isn't. But you're equating 'resistance' with 'immunity'. They are not the same thing. It's an arbitrary term, since we aren't given a gauge to tell how powerful one's resistance is, or what the threshold might be. You're using headcanon as a justification for... well... headcanon. 

 

TIM's eyes, I dispute, were not caused by the artifact. How would the artifact have caused his eyes to change? How would Reaper tech spontaneously appear within him?

 

It's both, genius. For someone who says he knows the lore, it really doesn't seem like you do.

 

 

 

Then you'd have to acknowledge that Shepard is being controlled and influenced by the Reapers. It goes beyond resistance. You're saying that what is happening is overt indoctrination, not just presence in the mind. And if what you say is true, then you'd have to accept that Shepard too is indoctrinated. Since you are failing to bring this up or accept this, it leads me to conclude that you're creating an incredulous double-standard in this argument. 

 

By the way, reported.

 

TIM was a sleeper agent up until ME3. He wasn't aware of it and when the Reapers arrived they started controlling him.

 

 

Prove it. Pure and simple. Prove it, explicitly. With hard evidence. Not with headcanon. Until then, your point is nothing put speculation. 

[GalacticWolf5]

No, there isn't. But you're equating 'resistance' with 'immunity'. They are not the same thing. It's an arbitrary term, since we aren't given a gauge to tell how powerful one's resistance is, or what the threshold might be. You're using headcanon as a justification for... well... headcanon. 

 

Since when exactly?

 

Right.

 

TIM's eyes, I dispute, were not caused by the artifact. How would the artifact have caused his eyes to change? How would Reaper tech spontaneously appear within him?

 

Well it did. We see it in the comics. Whether you like it or not, it's true.

 

Then you'd have to acknowledge that Shepard is being controlled and influenced by the Reapers. It goes beyond resistance. You're saying that what is happening is overt indoctrination, not just presence in the mind. And if what you say is true, then you'd have to accept that Shepard too is indoctrinated. Since you are failing to bring this up or accept this, it leads me to conclude that you're creating an incredulous double-standard in this argument.

 

No.

 

By the way, reported.

 

Why would you even do that? EDIT: You do realize why I replied this way, right? Just look at the way you were talking to me. You were saying I was hypocrite and then told me to ''make up my mind'' about indoctrination in a pretty unpleasant way (but I was right about it).

 

Prove it. Pure and simple. Prove it, explicitly. With hard evidence. Not with headcanon. Until then, your point is nothing put speculation. 

 

Arca Monolith -> Reaper eyes -> Reaper visions and voices -> fully indoctrinated in ME3.

[Seyd71]

Dropping the weapon customization system from ME 1.  They brought back a bit for ME 3, but 1 was the best of the lot there. Everybody could use every weapon, even if they weren't "good" with it. Also dropping the exploration aspect of the game that riding around in the Mako gave you.

 

Eh, I liked the upgrade system with how you can add 2 parts to your weapon, but In ME1 it was way over-powered and in ME2 it wouldn't have fit well. I prefer ammunition as a power, where you could be able to modify weapons in the field, even ones that aren't yours, instead of having to put a part on a gun. In addition to this, some of the lore could possibly work better if they got rid of things like Frictionless Materials. As for everyone using a weapon even if they weren't skilled with it? I HATED it, it bugged the hell out of me that companions like Liara would carry around a small armory on their back and not be able to use it. As for not being skilled with weapons, it wasn't just them not being skilled, if you or a companion used a weapon you weren't trained with it was like you were shooting while waving the gun around in the air with one hand, you missed everything. You were basically a Stormtrooper.

 

As for the Mako, it was important for exploration in ME1, where it helped establish the feeling of the game as well as the in-game universe. In ME2, driving around was a minor thing which fit the story. However, I believe they should've added vehicle missions in ME3. More than ME2, but less than ME1.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I don't like the idea of ammunition or grenades as a power. Choose them for part of your load out before a mission. Also while cryo ammo is fun it's very space magicky. Any N7 Marine would be trained in the use of all types of grenades and ammo.

 

The Mako - On the XBox 360 I loved driving around in the Mako. On the PC I absolutely hated the Mako. It has to do with controller support. While the PC has better support for micromanaging the character in combat (although when I played my adept in ME1 I ended up shooting everything anyway or using one or two powers), the controller is easier to use and I urge BW to have controller support for their next PC versions.

 

Shepard should have been able to show the Batarians she really cared and gone to Khar'shan with the Mako and got the Pillars of Strength. Instead... a click of the mouse or the pull of the trigger. Simple.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 TIM: "I've been fighting them longer than you can imagine"

Joe Fan: "Fighting their influence in your head, you mean?? Yeah I knew you were indoctrinated!"

 

Let us think this through, shall we? Shepard tells TIM he is indoctrinated. TIM denies it. Now you are telling me that TIM is telling Shepard he is indoctrinated?

 

TIM saw visions, heard voices from the Arca Monolith. Same things happened to Shepard after 'Rho. Close call, but we know Shep was not indoctrinated.

 

TIM then does the sensible thing to do after seeing what the artifact showed him: he recognizes that there are dark, alien threats in space and takes action to defend his people. With this context, TIM's quote above actually has a more reasonable explanation -- he really was fighting them before Shepard. We also see that, before ME3, the Reaper threat is treated like common knowledge among Cerberus personnel. TIM's purpose for Cerberus -- defending humanity, in no small part by fighting the Reapers -- is canon. Why is it so difficult for people to accept this?

 

Also, Miranda confirms that the purpose of the cells Shepard busted in ME1 were to combat the Reaper threat -- the experiments on 'Creepers and rachni and such were done with the intent to use them as shock-troops to use against the Reapers. Stupid! responds Joe Fan, that is crazy and only indoctrinated idiots trying to shoot us all in the feet would do that! Well, guess what? The Protheans did the same thing (with Rachni). Javik says so.

 

Setting up a task force to fight the Reapers -- not a very Reaper-thrall kind of a thing to do.

 

And no, you cannot resist indoctrination if you are too far gone. With Benezia and Saren, it was relatively recent. With Dr. Amanda Kenson, she was fully indoctrinated. She cannot be made to stand down, no matter how Shepard -- the talk-jitsu master -- tries to do so (Paragon). You cannot make any of the Cerberus mooks stand down. That TIM can stand down only lends credence to my argument that his indoctrination was relatively recent (sometime after Sanctuary).

 

 

Indoctrination takes time and continued exposure to set in. No one is zap-indoctrinated. TIM's exposure to the artifact was brief. There is no evidence -- zero, not a shred of it -- that the artifact imparted anything onto TIM that indoctrinated him. What I claim -- that the implants indoctrinated him -- is at least proven to happen.

 

Also, the incident with TIM at the Arca Monolith happened roughly 30 years ago. You are, in effect, claiming that TIM has been under mind-control/mind-alteration for over three decades and has still stayed coherent/functional. Do you folks really not see the craziness of this argument?

 

Maelon: "Please, professor. You wrote a paper on this. 'Forced behavior modification always results in mental degradation. Whether Reaper indoctrination or drugs, test subjects always loses higher cognitive function."

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Saren: Link

Husks

Spoiler

Not the same as TIM.

 

I was not asked if we had seen any eyes that look the same as TIM's. I was asked if we have seen eyes that look like TIM's, and both of those reasonably qualify. 

 

Kind of a silly/semanticist response anyway, though. I mean, we are supposed to freak out about TIM's eyes, but Shepard is not supposed to react at all because they are only very similar to husks/Saren yet not identical? Dunno why you folks are acting like my argument is crazy while making ones such as this.

[God]

 

Since when exactly?

 

Right.

 

 

Everything you've said is based on either flawed argument, poor evidence, or headcanon.

 

Well it did. We see it in the comics. Whether you like it or not, it's true.

 

 

Except that what we see in the comics is not mentioned to be indoctrination or implantation of Reaper technology.

 

No.

 

 

One word responses are not legitimate in this instance.

 

Arca Monolith -> Reaper eyes -> Reaper visions and voices -> fully indoctrinated in ME3.

 

 

There are two disconnects here.

 

Arca Monolith =/= Reaper eyes or indoctrination. Nor do Reaper visions and voices =/= indoctrination.

 

As mentioned above by myself and Professor X, you're arguing that Shepard is not indoctrinated while TIM is indoctrinated when they experience the exact same effects from a Reaper device. You're saying that TIM was indoctrinated while Shepard was not, and using TIM's actions in ME3 (after he implanted himself with Reaper technology) as a justification for this. This is a non sequiter point. There's a better solution presented: TIM was not indoctrinated until he implanted himself with Reaper technology. All of his other actions do have an explanation. 

 

It's a conspiracy what you're trying to build.

[DuskWanderer]

Her being the canon LI would mean that everyone romanced her whether they like it or not. I didn't romance her. Liara simply got more screen time because she's the ''hot blue space babe'' as many people like to call her. She and her whole species are basically fan-service. It's a pity.

 

I would've liked her better if she wasn't so forced onto the player.

 

I didn't either, but the game was desperately trying to make us want her. How many scenes were we forced to sit through and for us to talk about how great she was. 

[GalacticWolf5]

 TIM: "I've been fighting them longer than you can imagine"

Joe Fan: "Fighting their influence in your head, you mean?? Yeah I knew you were indoctrinated!"

 

When have I ever said that TIM was never fighting the Reapers. Clearly he was (until ME3), otherwise he wouldn't have resurrected Shepard. What I'm telling you is that he was a sleeper agent.

 

Also, calling me a Joe Fan and mocking me? Who do you think you are? I swear, the people on these forums, they either have crappy attitude or they insult you. Is it possible to have a normal conversation on here without belittling someone?

 

Let us think this through, shall we? Shepard tells TIM he is indoctrinated. TIM denies it. Now you are telling me that TIM is telling Shepard he is indoctrinated?

 

TIM saw visions, heard voices from the Arca Monolith. Same things happened to Shepard after 'Rho. Close call, but we know Shep was not indoctrinated.

 

When did I say TIM told Shep that he was indoctrinated? And of course TIM will deny it. So did Saren and he was indoctrinated too.

 

TIM then does the sensible thing to do after seeing what the artifact showed him: he recognizes that there are dark, alien threats in space and takes action to defend his people. With this context, TIM's quote above actually has a more reasonable explanation -- he really was fighting them before Shepard. We also see that, before ME3, the Reaper threat is treated like common knowledge among Cerberus personnel. TIM's purpose for Cerberus -- defending humanity, in no small part by fighting the Reapers -- is canon. Why is it so difficult for people to accept this?

 

Yeah, after thinking about it, it's true that Reapers have something to do Cerberus' manifesto. I simply overlooked that detail. (Though I never said that he never fought the Reapers. ME2's entire plot is about stopping the Collectors.)

 

Also, Miranda confirms that the purpose of the cells Shepard busted in ME1 were to combat the Reaper threat -- the experiments on 'Creepers and rachni and such were done with the intent to use them as shock-troops to use against the Reapers. Stupid! responds Joe Fan, that is crazy and only indoctrinated idiots trying to shoot us all in the feet would do that! Well, guess what? The Protheans did the same thing (with Rachni). Javik says so.

 

No, Miranda says they were making expendable troops for high-risk scenarios, not precisely the Reapers.

 

Javik says the Protheans used the Rachni as weapons of war agaisnt their enemies before he was born. He doesn't mention using them against the Reapers.

 

Calling me a Joe Fan and trying (and failing) to mock me again, how great.

 

And no, you cannot resist indoctrination if you are too far gone. With Benezia and Saren, it was relatively recent. With Dr. Amanda Kenson, she was fully indoctrinated. She cannot be made to stand down, no matter how Shepard -- the talk-jitsu master -- tries to do so (Paragon). You cannot make any of the Cerberus mooks stand down. That TIM can stand down only lends credence to my argument that his indoctrination was relatively recent (sometime after Sanctuary).

 

It's all about strength of will. Also, have you noticed that the two people we see resisting indoctrination kill themselves? They merely resist it for a minute and shoot themselves because they know they won't be able to retain control.

 

Indoctrination takes time and continued exposure to set in. No one is zap-indoctrinated. TIM's exposure to the artifact was brief. There is no evidence -- zero, not a shred of it -- that the artifact imparted anything onto TIM that indoctrinated him.

 

His eyes. Reaper technology from the Monolith. Reaper artifacts can physically change you.

 

Also, the incident with TIM at the Arca Monolith happened roughly 30 years ago. You are, in effect, claiming that TIM has been under mind-control/mind-alteration for over three decades and has still stayed coherent/functional. Do you folks really not see the craziness of this argument?

 

Maelon: "Please, professor. You wrote a paper on this. 'Forced behavior modification always results in mental degradation. Whether Reaper indoctrination or drugs, test subjects always loses higher cognitive function."

 

I specifically said that he was a sleeper agent and that he was unaware of it. When the Reapers arrived, they started using him to break us from the inside.

 

 

[GalacticWolf5]

I was not asked if we had seen any eyes that look the same as TIM's. I was asked if we have seen eyes that look like TIM's, and both of those reasonably qualify. 

 

Don't twist my words there. I said ''Who else has eyes like TIM's?'', meaning the same eyes.