14 réponses à ce sujet

[Zephyrrawr]

Hello, all! Upon starting a DW rogue for my second playthrough, I've noticed that melee characters' basic attacks are vastly different from what I remember in DA2. (I didn't really notice this during my first playthrough because I was playing a Knight Enchanter, and I didn't really need to "target" anything: Spirit Blade would just slice everything in front of me ) In DA2, when Hawke went to attack an enemy that was standing a few feet away, she would leap towards said enemy with her daggers in the air for the first basic attack in the attack-cycle. If the enemy walked away, she would do a "rolling" attack which still dealt damage, and allowed her to follow the enemy like a hawk. Yet in Inquisition, I have to keep manually running up to enemies who walk a foot away from the Inquisitor: I attack them once with a basic attack, but then they move a foot away again and I have to stop attacking and walk toward the enemy again. Rinse and repeat. I can't just hit my auto-attack and expect that my rogue will keep following the enemy, like I could in DA2.

 

Also, there's no automatic strafing around an enemy. (If there is, I haven't experienced it. Or my game is bugged.) I can't flank in this game to save my life. It's probably just my personal problem, but I'm having constant frustrations with Twin Fangs: I'll be behind my enemy, I'll activate Twin Fangs from Stealth, but my enemy will somehow smell my presence or something, so he'll move towards one of my companions. Suffice it to say that Twin Fangs will almost always miss him by a foot. I've tried to alleviate my flanking sickness with Flank Attack/Skirmisher--but honestly, half the time I end up flying off a random rock and landing a mile away from the battle, or the second attack of Flank Attack will hit the enemy in the front rather than behind. In the latter case, I'll be in Stealth, definitely, but since I'm in front of him, his attack will hit me and take me right back out of Stealth. Flanking was easy for me in DA2, so I have no idea how to deal with this.

 

I hated the controls for PC, so I've been using a USB Xbox controller. That made things marginally easier. But for some reason, I'm just not good at this game, even though DA2 on Nightmare was insanely fun for me. Honestly, I got so frustrated once I unlocked the Tempest specialization. Oh, yes, it'd be great I'm sure, and so much fun--if I could hit anything!

 

It also probably doesn't help that I'm adamant about not changing my difficulty setting, which is Nightmare.

 

So now I'm back to playing DA2, where I can strafe and back-stab all I want without fearing that my attacks will just end up missing by a mile.

 

But don't misunderstand me: I'm asking for help because I want to enjoy the rogue combat in Inquisition!! I'm going about the logistics of combat in the incorrect fashion, so if someone could give me tips to better my gameplay, that'd be much appreciated!

 

Level: 12 (but I have 13 skill points in total)

 

(If there are any typos, I apologize. Also, thanks for reading! Also also, please don't say "everything's a skill-shot/all your abilities rely on your skills as a player", because Dark Souls has skill-based combat, and it also has a nearly flawless lock-on system that allows me to flank my enemies easily. But I guess someone could just say, "This isn't Dark Souls, is it?", and I'll just have to resign myself to frustration.)

[HurraFTP]

I really like dw rogue in this game so i'll try to answer you the best I can with my not-so-good-english (sorry for that).

I think the two keys to perform a successful twin-fang (or deathblow) attack are observation and team synergy.

If a enemy is just standing doing nothing, his AI is evaluating the situation and sooner or later he will pick a target and he will  move to attack his prey. If you try to use twin-fangs/deathblow/shadow strike on him at this moment, you'll miss.
So make sure to use your talents when the enemy has already picked a target (your tank ideally) and when he's performing an attack animation (as they can only perform one animation at a time, they will not move or dodge at this moment).
An obvious example: an archer who kneels to attack with a full-draw is an easy prey for your rogue.
Of course, all the animations are not so easy to spot and some of them makes the enemy moves...so, at first, it's really a game of observation and patience.

Mages are your best buddies with all their CC abilities. Look in the storm and winter trees. Paralyzed, slowed, frozen ennemies are easier to flank.
If you hesitate on when to use twin-fangs, save your talent and use it when a mage has frozen a target with winter's grasp or ice mine to perform a shatter combo. (or, as a Tempest, I assume you can use your flask of frost then flask of fire for this)

I usually pick one "mobility" skill, I use Evade pre-skyhold and sometimes I respec with Hook and Tackle depending on my specialisation. (evade for a stealth/assassin style, H&T for the more "in your face" artificer/tempest style).
Also, for some reasons, I do better with the dual-blade AoE type of daggers.

You'll still have to micro-manage and reposition your character constantly (it's part of the fun of the class to me) but hopefully you'll also do a ton of damage.

N.B.: I don't use it so i can't comment much about it but there's apparently an auto-attack mode (you can assign a button in the key bindings menu) maybe that can help you too.

[PapaCharlie9]

My DW routine was: Stealth to close to target, plenty of time to maneuver to their flank, then Flank Attack (Skirmisher upgrade), which puts me back in stealth and back at the target's flank, unless they turned/moved, but I'm in Stealth so I can move back to flank. Rinse/repeat. I might finish with a Twin Fangs or Shadowstrike.

 

I pretty much never auto-attacked. It was all Stealth/skill attack/Stealth. I don't recall stamina being a limiting factor -- I must have had a passive that helped with that, don't remember.

 

That's without specialization skills. With Tempest, I'd Flask of Fire/Flask of Lightning and, with the best cooldown reduction amulet, pretty much spam Flank Attack all day long. With Hidden Blades as proc on both daggers, damage output got pretty ridiculous.

 

Eventually, you get your crits up high enough that you don't need to flank anymore. I would still use Flank Attack and Twin Fangs, though, rarely used auto-attacks.

 

PS. Lots of people have complained about how Twin Fangs fails, and rightly so. I did eventually learn most of its targeting quirks, but it was irksome to have to accommodate my tactics to the broken targeting. It got to the point where I avoided using TF on anything bigger than normal human size. Shadow Strike can also fail, but at least you don't get charged stamina if it misses. You can just trigger it again.

[Zephyrrawr]

 

 

PS. Lots of people have complained about how Twin Fangs fails, and rightly so. I did eventually learn most of its targeting quirks, but it was irksome to have to accommodate my tactics to the broken targeting. It got to the point where I avoided using TF on anything bigger than normal human size. Shadow Strike can also fail, but at least you don't get charged stamina if it misses. You can just trigger it again.

 

That's not good. I think I'll just try what you said: Flank Attack with hidden blades masterwork weapons. That sounds so much easier. But it may take a while for me to enjoy that, because I'm only level 12, and I don't have any Fade-Touched [Anything], though I'll keep it in mind for the future.

 

 

N.B.: I don't use it so i can't comment much about it but there's apparently an auto-attack mode (you can assign a button in the key bindings menu) maybe that can help you too.

 

Fantastic! I'm kind of embarrassed that I didn't notice that before, but better late than never!

 

Thanks so much for the replies! I'll try out all your advice; I'm sure it will help immensely!

[Magdalena11]

Yeah, I see your point, OP.  If I'm playing in isometric view, my melee guys just stand around swatting air even though I've specifically targeted an enemy and they're only 3 steps away.  It kinda has to be this way to accommodate enemies that are moving now, not just guys that stand in one place until they're dead, like everything but the "rogue" type baddies in DA2.  I'm a slow learner, never having played a video game since Myst:  Revelations, which was a totally different kind of game anyway, but the point is that if I can finally wrap my head around it, I'm sure you'll do OK.

 

My point:  have you tried tactical camera?  It also takes a little getting used to and the camera angles sometimes do make targeting worse, not better, but for the most part, it works fine and your DWR will actually try to stick a knife in the baddie instead of threatening him with it.  The hike up the mountain in Haven is now something I do while I'm waiting for tactical camera to kick in.

[BansheeOwnage]

Yeah, I love dual Rogues, but unfortunately the melee tracking in this game is really bad, and for some reason, worse than previous games - like you said. Combine that with Stealth not working properly all the time, and it sucks for DW Rogues. I don't really know how to help though, since even if you use Tac Cam the AI will miss too. Try getting really close to targets before attacking, then use talents that close gaps when they retreat. Also try to get talents that reduce your threat generation, so the enemies will ignore you.

[Magdalena11]

Yeah, I love dual Rogues, but unfortunately the melee tracking in this game is really bad, and for some reason, worse than previous games - like you said. Combine that with Stealth not working properly all the time, and it sucks for DW Rogues. I don't really know how to help though, since even if you use Tac Cam the AI will miss too. Try getting really close to targets before attacking, then use talents that close gaps when they retreat. Also try to get talents that reduce your threat generation, so the enemies will ignore you.

I didn't have any problem with the auto-attack in tactical with any class (DWR is my favorite, so I've practiced that one a little), but you have to be close enough to be realistic, if you know what I mean.  If I was targeting an opponent at the edge of tac cam range, and I launched anything but a basic attack (using a spell or ability), the character would either stand there while the rest of the party charged, or if I was really lucky, just revert back to basic attack and I'd be able to catch it before the attack landed.   The party has to be in combat mode (can't access inventory or map jump), and you have to be in range.  I don't know what the actual range maximum is, but a safe bet is that if your character would have to move to cast a spell or use an archery talent, it's too far to auto attack.

 

Don't get me started on AI pathfinding.  If you have to move to make any attack, you really are better off just switching back to isometric and assuming control of the PC yourself.  I really can't imagine any way to fix the AI there.  I don't know how much of a PITA it is to switch back and forth with a controller, but with M&K, it's as easy as pausing.  It's just the mentally switching gears part that takes getting used to.  Controllers might make that a little more complicated, I recall reading somewhere.

[BansheeOwnage]

I didn't have any problem with the auto-attack in tactical with any class (DWR is my favorite, so I've practiced that one a little), but you have to be close enough to be realistic, if you know what I mean.  If I was targeting an opponent at the edge of tac cam range, and I launched anything but a basic attack (using a spell or ability), the character would either stand there while the rest of the party charged, or if I was really lucky, just revert back to basic attack and I'd be able to catch it before the attack landed.   The party has to be in combat mode (can't access inventory or map jump), and you have to be in range.  I don't know what the actual range maximum is, but a safe bet is that if your character would have to move to cast a spell or use an archery talent, it's too far to auto attack.

 

Don't get me started on AI pathfinding.  If you have to move to make any attack, you really are better off just switching back to isometric and assuming control of the PC yourself.  I really can't imagine any way to fix the AI there.  I don't know how much of a PITA it is to switch back and forth with a controller, but with M&K, it's as easy as pausing.  It's just the mentally switching gears part that takes getting used to.  Controllers might make that a little more complicated, I recall reading somewhere.

Switching in between isn't hard for me with a controller. I just prefer to ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL of my character most of the time because I find I'm better at tracking the enemies than the AI. About them missing though, a lot of the problem is simply that when an enemy starts to retreat, the AI will keep trying to hit them momentarily, and by the time they finish the attack animation they've missed a couple of times, then they try to go after the target and miss some more. It's not horrible though.

[capn233]

When I played DW rogue, I had practically stopped using Twin Fangs by the mid portion of the game, instead mainly going with Hidden Blades, Flank Attack, and Deathblow.  It was also generally safer to focus on abilities rather than mess with auto attacking, although auto attacks w/ Pincushion and MoD were handy against dragons.

 

Many of those abilities work poorly on uneven ground, so I would try to get units into a flat spot.  A mage casting Static Cage is helpful for this purpose, or Pull of the Abyss (mostly if FF is off, as it pulls you and is a bit irritating with it on).

[CronoDragoon]

Dualblades have much better hit tracking than regular daggers, which is good since dualblades are better anyway. Between those, Flank Attack, and Deathblow, you pretty much have all you need. Especially as a Tempest.

[Magdalena11]

When I played DW rogue, I had practically stopped using Twin Fangs by the mid portion of the game, instead mainly going with Hidden Blades, Flank Attack, and Deathblow.  It was also generally safer to focus on abilities rather than mess with auto attacking, although auto attacks w/ Pincushion and MoD were handy against dragons.

 

Many of those abilities work poorly on uneven ground, so I would try to get units into a flat spot.  A mage casting Static Cage is helpful for this purpose, or Pull of the Abyss (mostly if FF is off, as it pulls you and is a bit irritating with it on).

Agreed regarding Twin Fangs.  The damage being done compares poorly with the pause afterward.  You'd probably do the same amount of damage using basic attack in the same time span and save mana for something else.  Hidden blades is awesome, but alchemist is pretty cool too, and you can't do both.  The only time Twin Fangs makes sense once other abilities are available is as a finishing move.  Great to really put the period at the end of a sentence.  If the enemy's weak enough, it might also be a decent way to get rid of those pesky spiders in the Wastes if you're packing enough weapon damage.  I forget, is that a detonator ability?  That might change my mind.

[BansheeOwnage]

Dualblades have much better hit tracking than regular daggers, which is good since dualblades are better anyway. Between those, Flank Attack, and Deathblow, you pretty much have all you need. Especially as a Tempest.

No, they're really not better. Their only advantage is AoE. Their tracking is just as bad for moving targets, and you'll get less DPS for a basic attack chain that single-target daggers, as well as less damage for all of your abilities. Not really worth it.

 

Agreed regarding Twin Fangs. I forget, is that a detonator ability?  That might change my mind.

Yeah, I think it's a detonator. There really aren't enough of those considering a lot of builds might only have one. Or none, and they'll be on cooldown most of the time.

[capn233]

Twin Fangs is in fact a detonator, and only using it on frozen or sleeping or whatever targets is an option to help it hit.  But Deathblow is also a detonator.  You can use Twin Fangs to detonate targets you won't kill outright with the hit / combo, and save Deathblow for those that you will kill (so it has no CD).  Later in the game you probably can do enough damage that the Deathblow and combo kills most things and will have less use for TF, which was my experience.

 

I used AOE daggers in my DW run because my best schematics base damage wise were the AOE ones.

[Magdalena11]

No, they're really not better. Their only advantage is AoE. Their tracking is just as bad for moving targets, and you'll get less DPS for a basic attack chain that single-target daggers, as well as less damage for all of your abilities. Not really worth it.

 

Yeah, I think it's a detonator. There really aren't enough of those considering a lot of builds might only have one. Or none, and they'll be on cooldown most of the time.

After the inquisitor, my favorite rogue (usually Varric) gets the next-best cooldown amulet as soon as I get his constitution built up with Bianca upgrades.  I get distracted by all the flashing lights and colors and forget all about barriers most of the time, so sometimes keeping him alive does take priority.  It's really a pain running around reviving everyone to fight.  I can't be doing too bad, since Dorian's my favorite mage and I only yesterday saw him revive with (I think) Spirit of the Dead, or something like that.

 

Thanks, capn233.  I had forgotten that deathblow was a detonator.  I only just recently learned how to really demolish with CCCs, and as a standalone, deathblow is very underwhelming.  I'll give it a try again with the DWR I have in my "waiting for the advisor to be ready" game.  IIRC, he's still in Haven and there's plenty of time to try new things with him.