349 réponses à ce sujet

[Parallax Demon]

Haven't played the game yet, because it's not released in Europe yet, but from what I read ME2 is a dumbed down version of the original. What's next? In ME3 you have a choice in the beginning if you want the be a good or a badguy and you don't have to respond anymore in the game?

In 2012 there will be a lot of good shooters then (MW3, HALO4, GoW3 and ME3). I really don't like this at all.

[Dan_cw]

Daeion wrote...

Dan_cw wrote...

While sitting here and sifting through thread after thread full of complaining and comparisons to Gears of War being made (which is pretty inaccurate because aside from the combat system, they're nothing alike), I was going to make a long post as I'm in the UK and ordered from Amazon due to it being cheaper, meaning I most likely won't get it till Monday.

However, I've read up on the game and watched streams of it. In addition, I loved the first game and have just began my third playthrough to get a level 60 character with the correct decisions I want carried over, for the max import bonuses.

So, instead of a rant and typing a long post, I'm going to ask one question:

Why did you play Mass Effect 1 and/or like it?

I can safely say I didn't play Mass Effect 1 for the cluttered inventory system nor driving around barren planets which ended up making me spend ten minutes trying to navigate a cliff (an exaggeration but you get the point). For the record, I also like traditional RPGs and grew up on things like Baldur's Gate etc. (Finishing off Orzammar atm in Dragon Age to go to the Landsmeet)

So that I don't ask a question and don't answer it myself, I played Mass Effect because I loved the cinematic nature of the game, the story and interacting with characters etc. You know, shaping how I navigate through the story?

From what I gather, Mass Effect 2 will be even better. So, I know I'm going to enjoy Mass Effect 2 when I get my hands on it.

Honestly the only thing that I had ever seen or heard about ME was the commercials when it was released on the xbox but I didn't pick it up until it was released for the PC and was $20.  I enjoyed the faster paced action of the game and didn't feel it needed to be turned into a shooter because it was an RPG and there's always a chance you are going to miss, though missing on shiper shots was lame.  I felt it had a great story and I loved making the different choices and seeing the results.  I loved finding that next upgrade and customizing my armor and weapon mods as well as those of my party.  I did however find the inventory system to be clunky and there was just too much that got turned into omnigell but there was nothing I could use the omnigel for except to bypass the minigames.

Me 2 still has the same great story and choices available to me, other then that it's a different game.  I no longer am looking for that next great upgrade, I'm nolonger customizing the gear of my squad amtes, deciding who gets what upgrade, armor is now pointless beyond the small boost it provides to specific abilities, my squadmates don't wear armor but apparently every other merc and soldier in the universe does, the inventory system was completely gutted, instead of being weapon mods available to all, ammo has somehow become class specific and my adept that was using cryo, inferno, shredder, or other rounds in ME1 has now somehow forgotten how to use these ammos...

I don't think anyone on my side of the fence will say that the old inventory system was perfect and nor was driving around mostly barren worlds trying to manuver mountains in a wheeled vehicle, I mean come on it's the future, why didn't wehave a hover tank to begin with?  What we are saying however is that we felt these were things that could have easily been improved upon instead of scrapped.

I understand your point and in some ways, I can agree.

But really, I guess what I'm trying to say is that when you look past the lack of inventory management etc. and also no vehicle driving alongside less statistics and skills to play around with, the game is still the same as always and if what the reviews say in terms of the game's cinematic nature and character interaction are correct, then it's even better than the first. For me, that is the core of what the game is built on. Not the item juggling or anything else like that. (However, like I mentioned, I can somewhat see where you're coming from. In my opinion, rather than getting rid of the inventory altogether, they could have maybe used a grid type interface. It would have made it less time consuming to navigate etc. and therefore, less tedious. I don't know how viable that would be though, due to being no game designer. Still, it's really a minor gripe in my opinion, as it won't have an effect on what the core of the game is built around. That being character interaction and story, alongside you deciding how you shape it.)

So, to surmise, the parts that really matter are still intact. You still weave your way through dialogs and shape the events/interact with characters. All of this with a good/great story and writing that is not often associated with shooters.

Modifié par Dan_cw, 27 janvier 2010 - 10:10 .

[Daeion]

Dan_cw wrote...

Daeion wrote...

Dan_cw wrote...

While sitting here and sifting through thread after thread full of complaining and comparisons to Gears of War being made (which is pretty inaccurate because aside from the combat system, they're nothing alike), I was going to make a long post as I'm in the UK and ordered from Amazon due to it being cheaper, meaning I most likely won't get it till Monday.

However, I've read up on the game and watched streams of it. In addition, I loved the first game and have just began my third playthrough to get a level 60 character with the correct decisions I want carried over, for the max import bonuses.

So, instead of a rant and typing a long post, I'm going to ask one question:

Why did you play Mass Effect 1 and/or like it?

I can safely say I didn't play Mass Effect 1 for the cluttered inventory system nor driving around barren planets which ended up making me spend ten minutes trying to navigate a cliff (an exaggeration but you get the point). For the record, I also like traditional RPGs and grew up on things like Baldur's Gate etc. (Finishing off Orzammar atm in Dragon Age to go to the Landsmeet)

So that I don't ask a question and don't answer it myself, I played Mass Effect because I loved the cinematic nature of the game, the story and interacting with characters etc. You know, shaping how I navigate through the story?

From what I gather, Mass Effect 2 will be even better. So, I know I'm going to enjoy Mass Effect 2 when I get my hands on it.

Honestly the only thing that I had ever seen or heard about ME was the commercials when it was released on the xbox but I didn't pick it up until it was released for the PC and was $20.  I enjoyed the faster paced action of the game and didn't feel it needed to be turned into a shooter because it was an RPG and there's always a chance you are going to miss, though missing on shiper shots was lame.  I felt it had a great story and I loved making the different choices and seeing the results.  I loved finding that next upgrade and customizing my armor and weapon mods as well as those of my party.  I did however find the inventory system to be clunky and there was just too much that got turned into omnigell but there was nothing I could use the omnigel for except to bypass the minigames.

Me 2 still has the same great story and choices available to me, other then that it's a different game.  I no longer am looking for that next great upgrade, I'm nolonger customizing the gear of my squad amtes, deciding who gets what upgrade, armor is now pointless beyond the small boost it provides to specific abilities, my squadmates don't wear armor but apparently every other merc and soldier in the universe does, the inventory system was completely gutted, instead of being weapon mods available to all, ammo has somehow become class specific and my adept that was using cryo, inferno, shredder, or other rounds in ME1 has now somehow forgotten how to use these ammos...

I don't think anyone on my side of the fence will say that the old inventory system was perfect and nor was driving around mostly barren worlds trying to manuver mountains in a wheeled vehicle, I mean come on it's the future, why didn't wehave a hover tank to begin with?  What we are saying however is that we felt these were things that could have easily been improved upon instead of scrapped.

I understand your point and in some ways, I can agree.

But really, I guess what I'm trying to say is that when you look past the lack of inventory management etc. and also no vehicle driving alongside less statistics and skills to play around with, the game is still the same as always and if what the reviews say in terms of the game's cinematic nature and character interaction are correct, then it's even better than the first. For me, that is the core of what the game is built on. Not the item juggling or anything else like that. (However, like I mentioned, I can somewhat see where you're coming from. In my opinion, rather than getting rid of the inventory altogether, they could have maybe used a grid type interface. It would have made it less time consuming to navigate etc. and therefore, less tedious. I don't know how viable that would be though, due to being no game designer. Still, it's really a minor gripe in my opinion, as it won't have an effect on what the core of the game is built around. That being character interaction and story, alongside you deciding how you shape it.)

So, to surmise, the parts that really matter are still intact. You still weave your way through dialogs and shape the events/interact with characters. All of this with a good/great story and writing that is not often associated with shooters.

And really, the story and characters etc. are what the majority of people play BioWare games for, no?

Well what's minor to some is major to others.  ME 2 is a great game and great story from what I've experienced so far.  That being said however some of us just feel that too much was scrapped to appease those who apparently don't want to spend time doing things orther than just speeding from mission to mission.  I also have to wonder what this means for ME3.  Will we reach a point where you only get one of each weapon, never being able to mod it and while youstill lvl up, your skills just unlock at set lvls and auto scale with lvl so that we don't even get to decide on that aspect of the game?

I think a lot of this could have been avoided if they had simply included an auto equip button just like there's an auto lvl button so those that don't want to think about their char or squadmates can just click and go.

[AlanC9]

Daeion wrote...

Well I think all the people who spen hours upon hours playing it and still do play it on battle net would probably say it was a great game and RPG.  What I'm implying is that the story doesn't make a game an RPG, it's the mechanics that make a game an RPG.

Maybe they're great games -- I found the first Diablo so boring I never finished it or played the sequel, so I've got no right to judge. But I don't see any way that they could be considered great RPGs. Merely having character development isn't sufficient for that.

[Dan_cw]

Daeion wrote...

Dan_cw wrote...

Daeion wrote...

Dan_cw wrote...

While sitting here and sifting through thread after thread full of complaining and comparisons to Gears of War being made (which is pretty inaccurate because aside from the combat system, they're nothing alike), I was going to make a long post as I'm in the UK and ordered from Amazon due to it being cheaper, meaning I most likely won't get it till Monday.

However, I've read up on the game and watched streams of it. In addition, I loved the first game and have just began my third playthrough to get a level 60 character with the correct decisions I want carried over, for the max import bonuses.

So, instead of a rant and typing a long post, I'm going to ask one question:

Why did you play Mass Effect 1 and/or like it?

I can safely say I didn't play Mass Effect 1 for the cluttered inventory system nor driving around barren planets which ended up making me spend ten minutes trying to navigate a cliff (an exaggeration but you get the point). For the record, I also like traditional RPGs and grew up on things like Baldur's Gate etc. (Finishing off Orzammar atm in Dragon Age to go to the Landsmeet)

So that I don't ask a question and don't answer it myself, I played Mass Effect because I loved the cinematic nature of the game, the story and interacting with characters etc. You know, shaping how I navigate through the story?

From what I gather, Mass Effect 2 will be even better. So, I know I'm going to enjoy Mass Effect 2 when I get my hands on it.

Honestly the only thing that I had ever seen or heard about ME was the commercials when it was released on the xbox but I didn't pick it up until it was released for the PC and was $20.  I enjoyed the faster paced action of the game and didn't feel it needed to be turned into a shooter because it was an RPG and there's always a chance you are going to miss, though missing on shiper shots was lame.  I felt it had a great story and I loved making the different choices and seeing the results.  I loved finding that next upgrade and customizing my armor and weapon mods as well as those of my party.  I did however find the inventory system to be clunky and there was just too much that got turned into omnigell but there was nothing I could use the omnigel for except to bypass the minigames.

Me 2 still has the same great story and choices available to me, other then that it's a different game.  I no longer am looking for that next great upgrade, I'm nolonger customizing the gear of my squad amtes, deciding who gets what upgrade, armor is now pointless beyond the small boost it provides to specific abilities, my squadmates don't wear armor but apparently every other merc and soldier in the universe does, the inventory system was completely gutted, instead of being weapon mods available to all, ammo has somehow become class specific and my adept that was using cryo, inferno, shredder, or other rounds in ME1 has now somehow forgotten how to use these ammos...

I don't think anyone on my side of the fence will say that the old inventory system was perfect and nor was driving around mostly barren worlds trying to manuver mountains in a wheeled vehicle, I mean come on it's the future, why didn't wehave a hover tank to begin with?  What we are saying however is that we felt these were things that could have easily been improved upon instead of scrapped.

I understand your point and in some ways, I can agree.

But really, I guess what I'm trying to say is that when you look past the lack of inventory management etc. and also no vehicle driving alongside less statistics and skills to play around with, the game is still the same as always and if what the reviews say in terms of the game's cinematic nature and character interaction are correct, then it's even better than the first. For me, that is the core of what the game is built on. Not the item juggling or anything else like that. (However, like I mentioned, I can somewhat see where you're coming from. In my opinion, rather than getting rid of the inventory altogether, they could have maybe used a grid type interface. It would have made it less time consuming to navigate etc. and therefore, less tedious. I don't know how viable that would be though, due to being no game designer. Still, it's really a minor gripe in my opinion, as it won't have an effect on what the core of the game is built around. That being character interaction and story, alongside you deciding how you shape it.)

So, to surmise, the parts that really matter are still intact. You still weave your way through dialogs and shape the events/interact with characters. All of this with a good/great story and writing that is not often associated with shooters.

And really, the story and characters etc. are what the majority of people play BioWare games for, no?

Well what's minor to some is major to others.  ME 2 is a great game and great story from what I've experienced so far.  That being said however some of us just feel that too much was scrapped to appease those who apparently don't want to spend time doing things orther than just speeding from mission to mission.  I also have to wonder what this means for ME3.  Will we reach a point where you only get one of each weapon, never being able to mod it and while youstill lvl up, your skills just unlock at set lvls and auto scale with lvl so that we don't even get to decide on that aspect of the game?

I think a lot of this could have been avoided if they had simply included an auto equip button just like there's an auto lvl button so those that don't want to think about their char or squadmates can just click and go.

I'm not saying this directly to you, Daeion. So, please don't take what I say below that way.

However, the general reaction when a new game releases is this:

What, game got 9.8? It should get a 9.7 or 9.9 (or whatever other number you want to throw around). Or such and such is crap, it's a copy of other games. Oh, I'm not going to miss the removed features and want innovation, yet when the game releases, the people who say that are not happy.

In summary, I wonder if a lot of people who complain actually play the games or really enjoy them, but just want to get a rise out of others. Well, either that, or people just like to complain about every little thing. I'm not saying negative feedback isn't good though. It is, but a lot of what's said is pretty daft surrounding a game's release. There's also the fact that there's no pleasing everyone.

Now, this is directly in response to you, Daeion:

My guess is that if they find that the negative comments have some validity or that some of the suggestions can be incorporated into the third game with good results, then what we'll find is a game that strikes more of a middle ground between action game and RPG. You know, the inventory system and such will be back, but implemented better?

On another note, should get the Friday due to ordering elsewhere.

Edit: Actually, just had a thought. If they want to keep the inventory more streamlined and less cluttered, yet people still want the inventory system in, what about a system that ignores loot drops but features plenty of items in shops to buy with money earned from killing enemies? That way, you should be able to keep the inventory less cluttered and also not have to clear out totally unnecessary items. Perhaps have the only dropped items coming from bosses. So basically, it'd be similar to the current system where you buy things in shops and only pick up the odd weapon in the field, but the shops offer a lot more items to choose from. You can kit yourself out as well, leaving room to have different sets of gear for different types of enemies.

Essentially, just make sure there's a lot more items to purchase that actually help in combat.

Modifié par Dan_cw, 27 janvier 2010 - 10:31 .

[AlanC9]

Daeion wrote...
 I also have to wonder what this means for ME3.  Will we reach a point where you only get one of each weapon, never being able to mod it and while youstill lvl up, your skills just unlock at set lvls and auto scale with lvl so that we don't even get to decide on that aspect of the game?

You're serious? Why would you expect that?

It's not like we actually lost the ability to decide on skills. We just lost the dopey minigame of trying to use points to unlock new abilities efficiently.

[the logger]

People need to put things into perspective, this is at the end of the day "just" a video game. Everything changes, evolves for better or worse, the universe you play in is the same, the main drive of the story is a continuation of the first game - you just play it in a slightly different way, get a grip, if it's that bad take it back or trade it in.

[komenusai]

the logger wrote...

People need to put things into perspective, this is at the end of the day "just" a video game. Everything changes, evolves for better or worse, the universe you play in is the same, the main drive of the story is a continuation of the first game - you just play it in a slightly different way, get a grip, if it's that bad take it back or trade it in.

I am in total agreement.

[Skyweir]

Well, this thread locks it for me. I won't buy ME2 on launch here in Europe. It will be the first Bioware games since KoToR I do not buy as soon as I could.

I just do not enjoy shooters. Mass Effect 1 was survivable because I felt like I was still playing an RPG, more or less. I felt like my twitch skills mattered less than my character skills, that inventory management and character building acctually decided things in combat.
But after reading review after review that tells me "most of the good gameplay in the game has been removed", regardless of the meaingless score, I must face the facts. ME2 is no more an RPG than Bioshock.
Oddly enough, it was the mission complete screens that broke the camel's back:). I just can't bear the thought....

As a general response, I would like to point out that free-form, rules-lite roleplaying is all well and good, but then we need total freedom of choice. Not renegade or paragon, but true freedom. That is what makes "rules-lite" RPGs (like White Wolf games) work well. Then, character progression can be made through growing your character mentaly as it reacts to the story.
This is not possible in a computer RPG at the moment. Which means that character development, that most crucial of all RPG-elements (which sets them apart from adventure games like The Longest Journey), must be achived more through stats than personality development.

This is why we need stat-based combat, inventories and costumization. Meaningfull choice not only in conversation, but in inventories and through character building. If not, we have at best a run-of- the mill shooter with a tacked on story I can find miles better in any of 100s of books.

Modifié par Skyweir, 27 janvier 2010 - 11:40 .

[Fishy]

Personnaly i love what they did .. It's was a chore to get through the 1000 type of ammo and upgrade iny my inventory.

[Typifire]

Wow. I didn't expect four pages while I was at work.

Before I address any previously addressed topics, let me state that just because something sells well and recieves rave critical rebviews doesn't mean it's good.  If so, you're arguing Brittney Spears is one of the top musical artists of all time.  So, anyone relying on critcal praise from the mainstream media to prove your point should stop.

I also didn't expect a genre debate.  I have already stated that loosely speaking any video game is an RPG, as it has you play a role, involes you in a story and introduces you to characters.  So, we can't say that just because you're playing a space marine with a team in a fictional story setting that this qualifies the game as an RPG. If so, DOOM, Quake, Gears of War, Unreal and many others would qualify as RPGs as well.

The etxra attention to dialogue, powers and the ability to level your character is really all that remains to qualify this game as an RPG.  And we have seen those last two elements in most of the third/first person shooters to come out recently.  Bioshock and Dead Space immediately come to mind.

However, what bothers me most about this game, is that it PLAYS like a first/third person shooter.  Now before all the fanboys start accusing people of being bad at shooters, let me state that I have played them since Wolfenstein 3D, college was filled with many LAN  deathmatch sessions of Quake 3 Arena and Unreal Tournament, and that before Dragon Age came out the last games I played were The Chronicles of Riddick Dark Athena, FEAR 2, Dead Space, Fallout 3 and Unreal Tournamanet 3.  This is not about being UNABLE to play any sort of game.

What it is about is disappointment.  Bioware has always reached a certain level of playability in RPGs that no one else has, because they were already action-oriented (KotOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect etc) while retaining enough elements to still be considered RPGs by video gaming standards.  ME 2 pushed too far in to the action-oriented territory.  It does not have the strategic feel that ME had. 

The entire tutorial I never felt the need to pause, or use ANY of my adept powers, or team mates powers.  I didn't need to, because all you had to do take out an enemy quickly was aim for the head.  That was something I learned playing shooters and did intuitively when playing ME.  But there were checks in place (shields, armor, weapon stats, ammo and weapon mods) that made you have to pause and think about the best way to approach the battle.  Imagine my surprise, when every enemy I shot in the head went down with one shot. (Except for the Heavy Mech who went down in one shot of the grenade launcher.)  It doesn't feel strategic or tactical anymore.

It feels like a shooter with dialogue. At least to me.

Modifié par Typifire, 28 janvier 2010 - 12:33 .

[Spectre Impersonator]

Typifire wrote...

That's a completely subjective matter. Though I have a feeling the moderators will agree with you.

And pretty much everyone else. If they pleased most people that's as much as they can hope for. Luckily you now know enough not to buy the third one for yourself.

[Typifire]

JohnShepard12 wrote...

Typifire wrote...

That's a completely subjective matter. Though I have a feeling the moderators will agree with you.

And pretty much everyone else. If they pleased most people that's as much as they can hope for. Luckily you now know enough not to buy the third one for yourself.

That was a reply to someone who stated it would be better for me to post my opinion in another thread than to start a new one.

And considering the amount of replies, and other threads stating the same thing, I'd say not EVERYONE is as pleased with it as you.  Though you may be correct in stating they pleased the majority.  However, that doesn't necessarily qualify it as good.  There's  alot of popular garbage afloat in the mainstream media.

I'm glad you like it.  I pre-ordered the Collector's Edition and will be returning the 70 dollar chunk of tin as soon as I'm off work tomorrow, provied the story doesn't suck me in tonight.

And if I return it tomorrow, you are correct, I definitely won't be buying the third one.

Modifié par Typifire, 28 janvier 2010 - 12:44 .

[Originalshb]

Mass Effects inventory systems was messed up to begin with. It only served 2 now pointless purposes

1, Credits. Yousold most of what you gathered

2, Omnigel. this was a luxury and not a requirement for completing the game.



GOOD inventory systems have you carry resources that you use. Example. dragon age you carry potion, traps, materials to craft them. quest items (keys. papers w/e)



The only thing you're loosing is managing your gear, except you didn't really loose this because, instead of them providing you with a storage system (like in dragon age wardens keep) they give you a changing room and armory that serves the same purpose.



And in fact, the changing room provides you greater customization of your character since your not stuck with a "whole set" of pink or yellow armor. you can pick what you wear on your head,legs chest. and what color it is.

[Allen63]

Take too much of that "pesky" stuff out of a game -- and its too "simple" to be fun.



I'm flabbergasted that a "Sequel" should be so incredibly "simplified" versus the original. For the word, "Sequel" to mean something, I think a game should be much like the first -- with issues fixed -- not major game play features omitted or stood onto their heads.



Though "run and gun" without much thought appeals to my 12 year old grandson -- and the younger grandkids, most of the older folks in my extended family like "complexity" in our games. I'm sure Bioware knows its audience. Maybe I'm no longer a part of that audience (I started with BG1).



Still, I'll try to enjoy ME2 for the "shooter" it is. Hope its a good shooter.

[Originalshb]

Allen63 wrote...

Take too much of that "pesky" stuff out of a game -- and its too "simple" to be fun.

I'm flabbergasted that a "Sequel" should be so incredibly "simplified" versus the original. For the word, "Sequel" to mean something, I think a game should be much like the first -- with issues fixed -- not major game play features omitted or stood onto their heads.

Though "run and gun" without much thought appeals to my 12 year old grandson -- and the younger grandkids, most of the older folks in my extended family like "complexity" in our games. I'm sure Bioware knows its audience. Maybe I'm no longer a part of that audience (I started with BG1).

Still, I'll try to enjoy ME2 for the "shooter" it is. Hope its a good shooter.

They actually expanded the combat. You can target different parts of the body to disable them or do increased damage. Also you can combine abilities to do increases damage. (example using cryo ammo to freeze something then charge it with a vanguard shatter!) "run and gun" is probably a fair statement if you're playing it on easy or normal. 

In fact ME1 was more run and gun than ME2 is. since i didn't have to worry about cover, or ammo, i didn't even worry abotu over heating i'd blast something till it died then let it CD and do it to the next. I've died more now than i did in ME1 because I forget it's not that simple of combat anymore

My argument isn't that the stuff removed was "pesky" but rather pointless.  

Modifié par Originalshb, 28 janvier 2010 - 04:29 .

[Amphrite]

So what we're really arguing about here is the level of immersion, not whether ME2 is an RPG or "FPS" (It's obvious not an FPS but a shooter...) and the degree to which ME1 was an RPG or a shooter. To me the comparison is like saying: which is more like a jungle cat - a tabby or a calico? Well sure you could make arguments for each but there is still a damn TIGER in the jungle. ME1 and ME2 have both shooter and RPG elements but they aren't traditional RPG's.

lmgtfy.com/

They have lots of elements, don't get me wrong. And both of them are very enjoyable, very fun games (I'm NOT bashing either - I love them both so far). But I must agree: the level of immersion in ME1 was just *that* much higher because of all of the mundane little things: the exploration, the inventory, the very-nearly arbitrary stats, the customizable weapon/armor mods (which I actually very, very sorely miss...this whole upgrade system is a far cry from the mod system which allowed you to quickly adapt to a wide range of tactical situations), etc. All of these things made you more involved in the game. Of course, then you actually fired your gun and you remembered combat kinda sucked. But that's another story.

Bottom line, yes, BW went a different direction. Just like Deus Ex and Deus Ex 2, Morrowind and Oblivion, and (to a lesser extent) KOTOR and KOTORII, when a sequel is made, very often the RPG elements are lost. The typical trend is RPG players pick up the game and enjoy it very much even though the combat is lacking for the RPG elements. Then, as the game becomes popular, more mainstream (sorry, the fact is that shooters are more mainstream than RPGs) shooter players pick it up, enjoy but could really care less about the RPG elements and despise the often clunky combat. Being a very vocal majority, they run to the forums and complain (loudly) and the designers acquiesce in order to boost sales for the sequel.

It's a sad world but it's the world we live in. And let's be fair - we all pretty much like both games, right? And BW isn't going to change a damn thing in ME2 now that it's out (no more Oblivion-style post-release patch frenzies). So let's all just deal with it.

And for all you fanbois - OH NOES! RATIONALITY ON TEH FORUMZ!

*Edit - linkage
*Edit - mark the edit

Modifié par Amphrite, 28 janvier 2010 - 04:56 .

[Originalshb]

 But I must agree: the level of immersion in ME1 was just *that* much higher because of all of the mundane little things: the exploration, the inventory, the very-nearly arbitrary stats, the customizable weapon/armor mods (which I actually very, very sorely miss...this whole upgrade system is a far cry from the mod system which allowed you to quickly adapt to a wide range of tactical situations), etc. All of these things made you more involved in the game.

If i understand correctly.  You're trying to say that the level of immersion was GREATER because of  all the things the removed your from the story/action?

If thats accurate well i don't understand your position then. It would be like a movie where they constantly paused it so they could refill your popcorn or explain the plot.

But that wasn't my point at least (to be fair i didn't read the whole forum since i'm at work, shhh ) what I would argue is that the inventory in ME1 was pointless a facsimile of other systems.  If you ask me in ME1 the inventory was more obligatory than nessasary.

Arbitrary stats?  Actually other than the points i put into weapons i never used i didn't find many arbitrary. What might have been is if you wanted to take to team members with you and they both had spent points in something like decryption. thats wastefull.

[lemon_man]

I like gears of war. and mass effect. a combination of the two sounds good. i look forward to the release tomorrow.

[Daeion]

AlanC9 wrote...

Daeion wrote...

Well I think all the people who spen hours upon hours playing it and still do play it on battle net would probably say it was a great game and RPG.  What I'm implying is that the story doesn't make a game an RPG, it's the mechanics that make a game an RPG.

Maybe they're great games -- I found the first Diablo so boring I never finished it or played the sequel, so I've got no right to judge. But I don't see any way that they could be considered great RPGs. Merely having character development isn't sufficient for that.

The simple fact of the matter is that the industry considers Diablo and Diablo 2 to be RPGs, just as the industry considers ME and ME2 to be RPGs.  Or we could look at soemthing like D&D Temple of Elemental Evil.  Probably about an 8 hour game, only a base story line to move you through the lvling, no branching story, and it's still considered an RPG.  My point that I was making was that having a grea branching t story does not make a game an RPG.

[Daeion]

Dan_cw wrote...

Daeion wrote...

Dan_cw wrote...

Daeion wrote...

Dan_cw wrote...

While sitting here and sifting through thread after thread full of complaining and comparisons to Gears of War being made (which is pretty inaccurate because aside from the combat system, they're nothing alike), I was going to make a long post as I'm in the UK and ordered from Amazon due to it being cheaper, meaning I most likely won't get it till Monday.

However, I've read up on the game and watched streams of it. In addition, I loved the first game and have just began my third playthrough to get a level 60 character with the correct decisions I want carried over, for the max import bonuses.

So, instead of a rant and typing a long post, I'm going to ask one question:

Why did you play Mass Effect 1 and/or like it?

I can safely say I didn't play Mass Effect 1 for the cluttered inventory system nor driving around barren planets which ended up making me spend ten minutes trying to navigate a cliff (an exaggeration but you get the point). For the record, I also like traditional RPGs and grew up on things like Baldur's Gate etc. (Finishing off Orzammar atm in Dragon Age to go to the Landsmeet)

So that I don't ask a question and don't answer it myself, I played Mass Effect because I loved the cinematic nature of the game, the story and interacting with characters etc. You know, shaping how I navigate through the story?

From what I gather, Mass Effect 2 will be even better. So, I know I'm going to enjoy Mass Effect 2 when I get my hands on it.

Honestly the only thing that I had ever seen or heard about ME was the commercials when it was released on the xbox but I didn't pick it up until it was released for the PC and was $20.  I enjoyed the faster paced action of the game and didn't feel it needed to be turned into a shooter because it was an RPG and there's always a chance you are going to miss, though missing on shiper shots was lame.  I felt it had a great story and I loved making the different choices and seeing the results.  I loved finding that next upgrade and customizing my armor and weapon mods as well as those of my party.  I did however find the inventory system to be clunky and there was just too much that got turned into omnigell but there was nothing I could use the omnigel for except to bypass the minigames.

Me 2 still has the same great story and choices available to me, other then that it's a different game.  I no longer am looking for that next great upgrade, I'm nolonger customizing the gear of my squad amtes, deciding who gets what upgrade, armor is now pointless beyond the small boost it provides to specific abilities, my squadmates don't wear armor but apparently every other merc and soldier in the universe does, the inventory system was completely gutted, instead of being weapon mods available to all, ammo has somehow become class specific and my adept that was using cryo, inferno, shredder, or other rounds in ME1 has now somehow forgotten how to use these ammos...

I don't think anyone on my side of the fence will say that the old inventory system was perfect and nor was driving around mostly barren worlds trying to manuver mountains in a wheeled vehicle, I mean come on it's the future, why didn't wehave a hover tank to begin with?  What we are saying however is that we felt these were things that could have easily been improved upon instead of scrapped.

I understand your point and in some ways, I can agree.

But really, I guess what I'm trying to say is that when you look past the lack of inventory management etc. and also no vehicle driving alongside less statistics and skills to play around with, the game is still the same as always and if what the reviews say in terms of the game's cinematic nature and character interaction are correct, then it's even better than the first. For me, that is the core of what the game is built on. Not the item juggling or anything else like that. (However, like I mentioned, I can somewhat see where you're coming from. In my opinion, rather than getting rid of the inventory altogether, they could have maybe used a grid type interface. It would have made it less time consuming to navigate etc. and therefore, less tedious. I don't know how viable that would be though, due to being no game designer. Still, it's really a minor gripe in my opinion, as it won't have an effect on what the core of the game is built around. That being character interaction and story, alongside you deciding how you shape it.)

So, to surmise, the parts that really matter are still intact. You still weave your way through dialogs and shape the events/interact with characters. All of this with a good/great story and writing that is not often associated with shooters.

And really, the story and characters etc. are what the majority of people play BioWare games for, no?

Well what's minor to some is major to others.  ME 2 is a great game and great story from what I've experienced so far.  That being said however some of us just feel that too much was scrapped to appease those who apparently don't want to spend time doing things orther than just speeding from mission to mission.  I also have to wonder what this means for ME3.  Will we reach a point where you only get one of each weapon, never being able to mod it and while youstill lvl up, your skills just unlock at set lvls and auto scale with lvl so that we don't even get to decide on that aspect of the game?

I think a lot of this could have been avoided if they had simply included an auto equip button just like there's an auto lvl button so those that don't want to think about their char or squadmates can just click and go.

I'm not saying this directly to you, Daeion. So, please don't take what I say below that way.

However, the general reaction when a new game releases is this:

What, game got 9.8? It should get a 9.7 or 9.9 (or whatever other number you want to throw around). Or such and such is crap, it's a copy of other games. Oh, I'm not going to miss the removed features and want innovation, yet when the game releases, the people who say that are not happy.

In summary, I wonder if a lot of people who complain actually play the games or really enjoy them, but just want to get a rise out of others. Well, either that, or people just like to complain about every little thing. I'm not saying negative feedback isn't good though. It is, but a lot of what's said is pretty daft surrounding a game's release. There's also the fact that there's no pleasing everyone.

Now, this is directly in response to you, Daeion:

My guess is that if they find that the negative comments have some validity or that some of the suggestions can be incorporated into the third game with good results, then what we'll find is a game that strikes more of a middle ground between action game and RPG. You know, the inventory system and such will be back, but implemented better?

On another note, should get the Friday due to ordering elsewhere.

Edit: Actually, just had a thought. If they want to keep the inventory more streamlined and less cluttered, yet people still want the inventory system in, what about a system that ignores loot drops but features plenty of items in shops to buy with money earned from killing enemies? That way, you should be able to keep the inventory less cluttered and also not have to clear out totally unnecessary items. Perhaps have the only dropped items coming from bosses. So basically, it'd be similar to the current system where you buy things in shops and only pick up the odd weapon in the field, but the shops offer a lot more items to choose from. You can kit yourself out as well, leaving room to have different sets of gear for different types of enemies.

Essentially, just make sure there's a lot more items to purchase that actually help in combat.

That could work or they could also simply impliment auto equip and auto breakdown components like they have an auto lvl component.  This way people who don't want to sit and go through just click 1-3 buttons and away they go where as those of us who want to take our time still have that option.  Course they'd need to fix breaking items down so you didn't simply get omnigel but instead got specific components or something that you could then use to upgrade or research weapons and armor.

[Daeion]

AlanC9 wrote...

Daeion wrote...
 I also have to wonder what this means for ME3.  Will we reach a point where you only get one of each weapon, never being able to mod it and while youstill lvl up, your skills just unlock at set lvls and auto scale with lvl so that we don't even get to decide on that aspect of the game?

You're serious? Why would you expect that?

It's not like we actually lost the ability to decide on skills. We just lost the dopey minigame of trying to use points to unlock new abilities efficiently.

Yes it's a little mellowdramatic, ok it's really mellowdramatic, but I can easily see where BW goes wow this was such a success since we brought this closer to a shooter, lets go all the way while still keeping the great story and simply the ability to make decisions.  Useing skill points to level your char isn't dopy, its a core part of being able to customize your character, that's a core RPG element. 

[Daeion]

the logger wrote...

People need to put things into perspective, this is at the end of the day "just" a video game. Everything changes, evolves for better or worse, the universe you play in is the same, the main drive of the story is a continuation of the first game - you just play it in a slightly different way, get a grip, if it's that bad take it back or trade it in.

Can't trade in a computer game.

[Daeion]

Suprez30 wrote...

Personnaly i love what they did .. It's was a chore to get through the 1000 type of ammo and upgrade iny my inventory.

I haven't found a single person who has said the old inventory system was great, what I have seen and I've been saying this is that it could have been improved upon by simply making same items stack and grouping like items so you didn't need to scroll through your entire list just to see what you had for cryo rounds.  They could have also added an auto equip and auto breakdown feature so that those who just want to go go go could do that and those who want to go through things and take their time deciding can still do that.