349 réponses à ce sujet

[Daeion]

Originalshb wrote...

Mass Effects inventory systems was messed up to begin with. It only served 2 now pointless purposes
1, Credits. Yousold most of what you gathered
2, Omnigel. this was a luxury and not a requirement for completing the game.

GOOD inventory systems have you carry resources that you use. Example. dragon age you carry potion, traps, materials to craft them. quest items (keys. papers w/e)

The only thing you're loosing is managing your gear, except you didn't really loose this because, instead of them providing you with a storage system (like in dragon age wardens keep) they give you a changing room and armory that serves the same purpose.

And in fact, the changing room provides you greater customization of your character since your not stuck with a "whole set" of pink or yellow armor. you can pick what you wear on your head,legs chest. and what color it is.

Once again, I haven't seen anyone say that the ME inventory system was good, just that it could have easily been fixed instead of removed and then up dated with 1 hit equip and break down buttons for those who don't want to look through things.

[The Tony Show]

Bioware forums circa 2008: Mako sucks! Inventory sucks! Medi gel sucks! Uncharted worlds suck! Armor appearance sucks!

Bioware forums circa 2010: Bring back the Mako! Where's my complicated inventory?! Unity to heal is stupid!! Why can't I drive around Uncharted worlds?! Armor customizing is stupid dress up game!!

I certainly don't envy your job as developers, Bioware. For every change that one person likes, another will hate it.

Modifié par The Tony Show, 28 janvier 2010 - 06:41 .

[Daeion]

Originalshb wrote...

 But I must agree: the level of immersion in ME1 was just *that* much higher because of all of the mundane little things: the exploration, the inventory, the very-nearly arbitrary stats, the customizable weapon/armor mods (which I actually very, very sorely miss...this whole upgrade system is a far cry from the mod system which allowed you to quickly adapt to a wide range of tactical situations), etc. All of these things made you more involved in the game.

If i understand correctly.  You're trying to say that the level of immersion was GREATER because of  all the things the removed your from the story/action?

If thats accurate well i don't understand your position then. It would be like a movie where they constantly paused it so they could refill your popcorn or explain the plot.

But that wasn't my point at least (to be fair i didn't read the whole forum since i'm at work, shhh ) what I would argue is that the inventory in ME1 was pointless a facsimile of other systems.  If you ask me in ME1 the inventory was more obligatory than nessasary.

Arbitrary stats?  Actually other than the points i put into weapons i never used i didn't find many arbitrary. What might have been is if you wanted to take to team members with you and they both had spent points in something like decryption. thats wastefull.

Things like inventory, moding weapons, equiping your squadmates, deciding who to bring because you need that decrypting and hacking skill don't remove you from the game, they make you a part of it because you actually have to stop and think.  Sweet I just found this awesome light armor, should I give it to myself even though it's just a small upgrade, should I give it to Liara but it's a little more of an upgrade for her or should I give it to kaiden who it's a huge upgrade for but I only rarely bring on missions.  Those are the things that a lot of us are missing in ME2 becuase we nolonger have to stop and think about our squadmates, everything just trickles down to them and there's no thought process involved and we then don't feel as connected.

[Daeion]

The Tony Show wrote...

Bioware forums circa 2008: Mako sucks! Inventory sucks! Medi gel sucks! Uncharted worlds suck! Armor appearance sucks!

Bioware forums circa 2010: Bring back the Mako! Where's my complicated inventory?! Unity to heal is stupid!! Why can't I drive around Uncharted worlds?! Armor customizing is stupid dress up game!!

I certainly don't envy your job as developers, Bioware. For every change that one person likes, another will hate it.

I don't think anyone will say that the previous inventory and boring uncharted worlds were implemented well and left no room for improvement.  What we were asking for were improvements to the systems, not scrapping them.  The inventory could have easily been streamlined by making smae items stack, like items group, and then adding a auto equip button and autto breakdown button while still leaving a system in place for those who like spending time on inventories.  We were told we were going to get more exciting worlds to explore, instead I'm stuck here firing 30 probes at a planet to get resources, I mean the old inventory was clunky and tedious but this isn't?

[The Tony Show]

Star Trek TNG had some amazing stories, yet you never saw them arguing over who got the best phaser or armor before an away team beamed down.



You're on a state of the art warship with tech replicators- everyone gets the best you currently have access to, and you move on to enjoying the narrative instead of staring at a poorly laid out menu screen for 45 minutes. Boo hoo.

[Promethean 47]

I like some of the changes, don't like some of the others. The thing I absolutely love though, is how much more real story content there is in this one. If that means sacrificing mako driving off random world 293, then fine.

[Vohx]

Typifire wrote...

That's a completely subjective matter. Though I have a feeling the moderators will agree with you.

Yes... the moderators, and let us see; every major review thusfar I'm sorry you don't enjoy the game, and it isn't what you thought it was going to be, but at the end of the day, it's your fault, if people want to read into hype, and unfairly raise their expectations of a product only to have them dashed due to insufficient research? All the more power to them, it makes for an interesting read.

Many, many, many times it was said that ME2 would have a darker story, with more emphasis on combat elements.

The lads from Ars. Technica said it best:

RPG fans, and people who loved the first game and everything
about it, may feel like the game has been "dumbed down." Don't
fall into that trap: this is simply tuned for a different feel,
and a different experience. It's a bold move for a sequel, to be
sure, but the changes are more for the better than for the worse.
It's just a matter of expectation.


No matter what you think about the changes made to the mechanics
of the game, the world of Mass Effect is richly woven, utterly
fascinating, and shows surprising depth in places. I've only
played the game once, and your experiences may be different than
mine, but there is a section that deals with the Krogan and the
genophage virus that showed remarkable grace and subtlety. There
are threads that are picked up from the first game and expounded
upon here that may not touch on the main story, but do a
wonderful job of fleshing out these characters and the world they
live in. The politics and relationships are some of the best in
modern gaming. While the dialog may feel like a soap opera at
times, at other times the humor and genuine emotion will touch
you in very unexpected ways.

Min/maxing and inventory management do not a RPG make.

[Wrath of Doom]

BioWare apologists live here.

[Darth_Shizz]

Took me a couple of hours to get used to this on the PC.

At first, I was pretty shocked and somewhat intimidated by just how different it felt (can't imagine how non-shooter fans took this). Not only combat-wise, but OVERALL. From the intermission screens, to the added cinematic aspect (Shepard no longer looks as if he's had a metal rod attached to his spine during conversations). BW have definitely gone an entirely new route with ME2.

Question is, how do the changes play out?

Combat is definitely far more engaging. Playing through as an adept on insanity, I've not really experienced the "run and gun" shooting I've seen tossed about this thread. The addition of locational damage actually adds a sense of strategy to the gunplay; going up again a group of mechs, why waste time and bullets killing them outright? It's far more efficient blow off a leg before moving on to more threatening targets. Then there's the improved squad AI. A few times, I've found my team ducking and weaving in and out of cover in order to get a shot on the enemy without any input from me. However, you CAN still order them to attack certain targets, or move them in to flanking positions (360 owners now also get individual squad movement commands). Non-trivial combat = good improvement. 


The cinematic aspect has also been vastly improved. Both in animation, level design and most certainly, voice acting. The last point of improvement is especially true, not just for me playing as a male (Mark Meer), but also from the standpoint of bit-part NPCs; despite only being a few hours in, I've already discovered a handful of incredibly memorable characters. 

What has been lost? From what I've experienced so far, it feels a tad less...open. Whilst the universe feels FAR bigger in terms of scale, the mission complete scenes have the ability to break flow. Whether or not this is a huge deal, I have no clue. However, it could prove to be a bit of a hindrance, at least psychologically. It'd also be nice if squad mates didn't feel so static during certain missions; it's as small a complaint as you could get, but they just just seem so upright aiming down their sights 24/7...though perhaps that has something to do with the constant threat of death? Who knows  

Other than those points, I really can't discuss skill/equipment changes, as I'm simply not far enough in to judge. 

*Edit - I forgot to point out the improvement of going from simon says, to the bypass/hacking minigames we have now. Whilst bypass leans towards the "throwaway" side of things, hacking is actually a lot of fun...and oddly relaxing t'boot 0_o

Modifié par Darth_Shizz, 28 janvier 2010 - 07:15 .

[Daeion]

The Tony Show wrote...

Star Trek TNG had some amazing stories, yet you never saw them arguing over who got the best phaser or armor before an away team beamed down.

You're on a state of the art warship with tech replicators- everyone gets the best you currently have access to, and you move on to enjoying the narrative instead of staring at a poorly laid out menu screen for 45 minutes. Boo hoo.

In TNG they all ran around in the exact same starfleet issued clothes and used the exact same star fleet issued phaser.  Shepard is doing this with some help from a small organization but even that organization didn't provide the best items.  And instead of staring at a poorly laid out menu for 45 minutes we wouldlike to stare at a wonderfully designed menu for about 2-3 minutes if we want to take our time or those who don't want to stop can just click an auto button like with leveling.  Boom, everyone is happy.

[Daeion]

Vohx wrote...

Typifire wrote...

That's a completely subjective matter. Though I have a feeling the moderators will agree with you.

Yes... the moderators, and let us see; every major review thusfar I'm sorry you don't enjoy the game, and it isn't what you thought it was going to be, but at the end of the day, it's your fault, if people want to read into hype, and unfairly raise their expectations of a product only to have them dashed due to insufficient research? All the more power to them, it makes for an interesting read.

Many, many, many times it was said that ME2 would have a darker story, with more emphasis on combat elements.

The lads from Ars. Technica said it best:

RPG fans, and people who loved the first game and everything
about it, may feel like the game has been "dumbed down." Don't
fall into that trap: this is simply tuned for a different feel,
and a different experience. It's a bold move for a sequel, to be
sure, but the changes are more for the better than for the worse.
It's just a matter of expectation.


No matter what you think about the changes made to the mechanics
of the game, the world of Mass Effect is richly woven, utterly
fascinating, and shows surprising depth in places. I've only
played the game once, and your experiences may be different than
mine, but there is a section that deals with the Krogan and the
genophage virus that showed remarkable grace and subtlety. There
are threads that are picked up from the first game and expounded
upon here that may not touch on the main story, but do a
wonderful job of fleshing out these characters and the world they
live in. The politics and relationships are some of the best in
modern gaming. While the dialog may feel like a soap opera at
times, at other times the humor and genuine emotion will touch
you in very unexpected ways.

Min/maxing and inventory management do not a RPG make.

A darker story and shifting combat from RNG to true TPS does not in any way say that they are going to gut RPG elements.  There were a bunch of QQ threads on the original forums when it was announced that they were changing the combat mechanics because people knew that other RPG elements were going to suffer besides the RNG combat system.  I was one of those people saying to wait and see and that BW wouldn't screw us.  Guess I'm eating my words right now.  For the record, I have no issue with the way they changed combat, what they did to inventory, skills, and squad customization makes me cry.

I'd like to know what makes a game an RPG for you?  And it can't just be that it has a great branching story because that can be done with any genre, heck, even ODST let you decide your path through the majority of the game.

[Darth_Shizz]

I'd like to know what makes a game an RPG for you?  And it can't just be that it has a great branching story because that can be done with any genre, heck, even ODST let you decide your path through the majority of the game.

The game retains its ability to make me want to walk around a ship or hub world just sucking in the scene and finding people to talk to. Or the way it encourages me to take time out to check the codex whenever a new entry pops up, just so I can better understand the universe I've been thrown in to. That ability the game has to make me want to focus on the story elements, rather than just look forward to combat, is what makes it an RPG...at least to me.

Though I won't claim ME2 to be a pure rpg, it's certainly not what the thread title states.

Modifié par Darth_Shizz, 28 janvier 2010 - 07:40 .

[The Tony Show]

I play an RPG for the story- period. ME2 has removed hours of tedium spent staring at static sceens or listening to the blender-like drone of the Mako that used to stand between me and my story. The combat is now fun- instead of standing in the open and spamming all my Biotics and tech one after another, I now take cover, overload shields, bend a pull around the crates to lift them up and then watch my AI partners blast them to shreds. Fun, and makes me feel like a badass sci-fi warrior.



Bottom line is that they've Improved it in almost every way. The planet mining could be cut down to a 30-45 second minigame like the hacking or door bypasses. I wouldn't mind them offering the ability to customize the armor pieces on your squad in the same quick, streamlined way you do Shepard's when ME3 comes out either, but other than that it's damn near perfect.

[Ski Mask Wei]

Bioware did the right thing with ME2 in my mind. I was never crazy about inventory management in any RPG. The only thing I missed for a microsecond was the fact that you couldn't equip your squadmates, but hell they're grown, they can dress themselves. Hell, they won my heart just by having customized colors and selectable pieces.



The heart of the original is still there (the story, world, and characters) but the now combat mechanics have fully come out the closet and realized what it was...an action game

[Daeion]

The Tony Show wrote...

I play an RPG for the story- period. ME2 has removed hours of tedium spent staring at static sceens or listening to the blender-like drone of the Mako that used to stand between me and my story. The combat is now fun- instead of standing in the open and spamming all my Biotics and tech one after another, I now take cover, overload shields, bend a pull around the crates to lift them up and then watch my AI partners blast them to shreds. Fun, and makes me feel like a badass sci-fi warrior.

Bottom line is that they've Improved it in almost every way. The planet mining could be cut down to a 30-45 second minigame like the hacking or door bypasses. I wouldn't mind them offering the ability to customize the armor pieces on your squad in the same quick, streamlined way you do Shepard's when ME3 comes out either, but other than that it's damn near perfect.

Then you obviously never played any of the Diablo games because they have no story yet are considered some of the most adictive RPGs ever and Diablo 3 is probably one of the most anticipated games right now.  You can get a great story from any genre so that's not what defines a RPG.  QQ mnore about how the inventory system was bad and driving around on baren planets was boring, NO ONE IS DISAGREEING WITH THAT!  Those of us that have issues with the way things were done in ME2 can see that there were easy ways to improve these instead of scrap them, and that's what we were promised, improvements of mechanics, not removal.  Once again, many of us are fine with the combat changes from RPG combat to shooter combat, that however doesn't mean that they needed to gut inventory and squad customization.  I;m not goign to say your opinion is wrong because it is just that, an opinion and everyone is entitled to one.  That doesn't mean that I'm going to agree with it.  ME2 is still a great story and a pretty good game, but in my eyes it's far from perfect now.

[Typifire]

Vohx wrote...

Typifire wrote...

That's a completely subjective matter. Though I have a feeling the moderators will agree with you.

Yes... the moderators, and let us see; every major review thusfar I'm sorry you don't enjoy the game, and it isn't what you thought it was going to be, but at the end of the day, it's your fault, if people want to read into hype, and unfairly raise their expectations of a product only to have them dashed due to insufficient research? All the more power to them, it makes for an interesting read.

I've already stated once that that comment was made regarding the thread, not the game. 

I was replying to someone who stated it would be better for me to post my opinion in another similar thread than to start a new one.  To which I replied with what you quoted.

Obviously whether or not the game is good is also subjective.  And just because reviewers are giving it good reviews, or because it's selling alot of copies, doesn't mean its good, or that everything about it is flawless and perfect.  Reviewers are just people with opinions like everyone else, and their opinions and beliefs are no more important than yours or mine.

I'm glad you like all the changes.  I don't.  But just becasue some mainstream media agree with you, doesn't mean my opinion is meaningless.

Once again, if media reviews and copies sold decided what was good and what was not, then Brittney Spears is one of the best musical artists of all time.

Modifié par Typifire, 29 janvier 2010 - 12:54 .

[Typifire]

The Tony Show wrote...

I play an RPG for the story- period. 

Then why does it even need to be an RPG? You can play any game for a story.

Modifié par Typifire, 29 janvier 2010 - 12:53 .

[Lucy Glitter]

 Even though I enjoy it a great deal, I feel pretty alienated from this game. It doesn't feel like a BioWare game. Plus, I dread every quest now because I know it's just going to be shooting things.

[Liablecocksman]

Okay... I need to get this out of the way:



The story of Dragon Age is roughly the exact equivalent of Mass Effect 2.

Evil guys trying to kill universe/world. You are forced into defending it - Partly because you want to, and you're a hero and partly because you don't have a choice.



Then you walk around and recruit a number of people to your cause, do all the side missions - none of which have any impact on the story whatsoever - and then commence a final assault on the baddies.



It's so recycled it hurts. From ME1 to DA:O to ME2.



But **** that, honestly... The games all rock :-)

[Da Mecca]

I disagree with the OP.



But if The Gears team ever wanted to make an RPG this would be a good model.

[Liablecocksman]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

 Even though I enjoy it a great deal, I feel pretty alienated from this game. It doesn't feel like a BioWare game. Plus, I dread every quest now because I know it's just going to be shooting things.

Whereas you weren't just shooting things in ME1? The side-missions are much better in ME2 in the fact that they have some sort of relevance, and backstory.

ME1 sidemissions were a huge let-down, a massive disappointment, a gigantic waste of time. If you do not agree, then you have not played the game.

If you do agree, you will see that you point - in regards to ME2 - is completely useless :-)

[Typifire]

Liable****sman wrote...

Okay... I need to get this out of the way:

The story of Dragon Age is roughly the exact equivalent of Mass Effect 2.
Evil guys trying to kill universe/world. You are forced into defending it - Partly because you want to, and you're a hero and partly because you don't have a choice.

Then you walk around and recruit a number of people to your cause, do all the side missions - none of which have any impact on the story whatsoever - and then commence a final assault on the baddies.

It's so recycled it hurts. From ME1 to DA:O to ME2.

But **** that, honestly... The games all rock :-)

 You just summed up the plot to every video game/comic book/action movie on the planet.  Obviously the idea has been done before.  The only difference being how much you feel the plight in this new setting with new bad guys trying to destroy the new world.

[Typifire]

Liable****sman wrote...

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

 Even though I enjoy it a great deal, I feel pretty alienated from this game. It doesn't feel like a BioWare game. Plus, I dread every quest now because I know it's just going to be shooting things.

Whereas you weren't just shooting things in ME1? The side-missions are much better in ME2 in the fact that they have some sort of relevance, and backstory.

ME1 sidemissions were a huge let-down, a massive disappointment, a gigantic waste of time. If you do not agree, then you have not played the game.

If you do agree, you will see that you point - in regards to ME2 - is completely useless :-)

No.  You weren't just shooting things in ME.  The use of powers was more important, because a strategically placed shot couldn't take out an opponent in one hit.  To me, that made the game feel more tactical and the battles feel more tense.

Modifié par Typifire, 29 janvier 2010 - 01:02 .

[Liablecocksman]

Typifire wrote...

Liable****sman wrote...

Okay... I need to get this out of the way:

The story of Dragon Age is roughly the exact equivalent of Mass Effect 2.
Evil guys trying to kill universe/world. You are forced into defending it - Partly because you want to, and you're a hero and partly because you don't have a choice.

Then you walk around and recruit a number of people to your cause, do all the side missions - none of which have any impact on the story whatsoever - and then commence a final assault on the baddies.

It's so recycled it hurts. From ME1 to DA:O to ME2.

But **** that, honestly... The games all rock :-)

 You just summed up the plot to every video game/comic book/action movie on the planet.  Obviously the idea has been done before.  The only difference being how much you feel the plight in this new setting with new bad guys trying to destroy the new world.

The overall idea wasn't my point.

"Then you walk around and recruit a number of people to your cause, do all the side missions - none of which have any impact on the story whatsoever - and then commence a final assault on the baddies." was my point.

The game(s) centers around the characters more than the story/plot itself. And the story is quite generic and mainstream in all of the cases, except for a few twists and turns that are all character-related. The story isn't incredibly surprising, instead the interactions between the characters make the setting more believeable (as you say) and thus effectively better.

[Lucy Glitter]

Liable****sman wrote...

Whereas you weren't just shooting things in ME1? The side-missions are much better in ME2 in the fact that they have some sort of relevance, and backstory.

ME1 sidemissions were a huge let-down, a massive disappointment, a gigantic waste of time. If you do not agree, then you have not played the game.

If you do agree, you will see that you point - in regards to ME2 - is completely useless :-)

There was a lot of time to explore things. Yes, the sidequests in ME1 were boring, but in my honest opinion here, it feels the same for all the quests this time around. I miss getting time to just run around before a fight and be able to look at things. Ilos was so beautiful and haunting, and I enjoyed having some of the time to look at all the stuff. I mean, at least in ME2 all the areas look different, but they are boring. I just know that every personal and main quest - I will run into a place and shoot people and it feels like I don't even have a reason to do so. Purgatory was a let down as well. I wanted more time to be able to get a feel for this really dark place but I didn't.

edit: That being said, the characters themselves are the games saving grace. They are unique, interesting and mystical in their own ways.

Modifié par Lucy_Glitter, 29 janvier 2010 - 01:06 .