144 réponses à ce sujet

[Garryydde]

This was all good up until DJ Mustard beats. Stop it, fam

mustardondabeat

[Br3admax]

I don't know about you guys, but that certainly made me feel more accepting of other races. 

[slimgrin]

A study released today in the journal Science states that white people can be reprogrammed to change negative attitudes towards women and minorities through a process that involves a short training program and using tones while they sleep.

http://m.sciencemag..../6238/1013.full

http://qz.com/414478...hile-you-sleep/


There are a number of holes in this study, mainly that they chose white-only university students, that the sample size was quite small for larger extrapolation and the nature of the prejudice bias test being less than ideally structured... still, it is an interesting concept. It is, essentially, effective brain washing to rid people of biases.

Is this ethical? Necessary? Good? Evil? I leave it up to the BSN to pass judgment.

Are you a deep seated troll or SJW? Which is it? I'm beginning to think you're like this undercover troll dude.

[Dermain]

That's not exactly what the study says. It says that they provided training they cued with a sound and then played that sound while people slept. Their finding was that playing the sound improved retention of the training.

It's a memory study. This is the summary:



The whole reducing bias thing was sensitivity training. People just remembered it better.

 

Since I finally got around to reading the full study myself I have to agree. Here's are two important quotes:

Past research indicates that by pairing learning episodes with auditory or olfactory stimuli and then presenting these stimuli again during postlearning SWS, learned information can be specifically reactivated and strengthened. Benefits of this targeted memory reactivation (TMR) have been documented for declarative, procedural, and emotional memories . Such learning typically does not challenge preexisting knowledge nor compete with daily experiences outside the laboratory. In contrast, we examined learning-induced changes in long-standing social biases. We showed that selectively reactivating counterbias learning during sleep weakened preexisting implicit social biases immediately after the nap and facilitated the retention of this learning going forward. Without TMR during sleep, training effects tended to dissipate, and the bias returned to baseline levels. These results thus enlarge our conception of sleep’s role in socially relevant learning.

 

 

While social biases are mentioned the entire point was the retention of the training. Social biases were just the vehicle that they were using to test it.

 

Future research is needed to address many outstanding questions in relation to our findings. For example, how much training is needed to make implicit benefits persist for long periods of time and transfer to explicit benefits in interpersonal interactions? To what extent do persistent benefits depend on repeated training, the nature of other waking activities after training, and repeated memory reactivation during sleep? Although IAT measures are imperfect and may sometimes reflect knowledge of cultural stereotypes rather than implicit bias per se, prior research has demonstrated consequences for social behavior, such that low implicit bias as measured with the IAT may indeed be linked with egalitarianism. Given that training to reduce implicit bias can be conceptualized as a type of habit learning, perhaps novel sleep manipulations could be adapted to aid people in changing various unwanted or maladaptive habits, such as smoking, unhealthy eating, catastrophizing, or selfishness.

 

 

They are unsure as to how long the training would last, and they even acknowledge that the IAT test is not really ideal in testing actual social biases in the subjects. They also do not see this technique being used to "fix" social biases, but instead to fix bad habits that people want to stop engaging in. Of course, if that's what they wanted to actually test, why didn't they just test that? Granted, it's the discussion section so they are supposed to suggest other avenues of research, but the way it was phrased makes it seem out of place.

 

It just makes the study look a bit more like a click bait headline, and possibly a way to get better funding for future research.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. 

 

I'm sure in the days of yore religious clerics thought they could use special tools and techniques to turn supposed witches and heretics or to make them see the light. Look how that worked out. 

 

Or in recent decades, there have been programs where certain groups of people sought to overcome homosexual tendencies and effeminate tendencies by virtue of conditioning and stimulus. Look how that worked out. 

 

There is also programs in certain nations where the state seeks to round up young boys who spend their time playing video games and being online, boys who they consider to be social delinquents, into special camps designate to overcome their "unproductive nature". Look how that turned out. 

 

What's more racism and sexism both originate from the same thing :- Tribalism. Tribalism is the state or fact of being organized in a tribe or tribes. Sexism is simply tribalism on the basis of sex and Racism is simply tribalism on the basis of skin color or ancestral origins. 

 

You cannot eliminate tribalism from humans because humans are social apes that naturally tend to form groups and hierarchies. At best, one can divert humans from tribalistic behaviors or make humans aware of their tribalism but to eliminate it completely is just a pipe-dream. 

 

Sleep "stimulus" brainwashing neither diverts tribalistic behavior nor does it make people aware of tribalistic behaviors. It suppresses them through forced mental conditioning. This does not solve the problem as all it does is create a boiling pot scenario where from the outset, it all looks fine but inside, there is a bubbling frothing mixture ready to explode and when it does go FUBAR, people are going to ask "Eh, what happened ?"

 

As a Southeast Asian Tamil man, I have to say this incessant need and drives by people in the West, particularly those on the extreme left of the political spectrum, to demonize and to malign white westerners, especially heterosexual white male westerners, is definitely not going to end well at all. I have studied history and I can tell you that white people are not the only ones who have done bad things. All groups of people have done so. What's more, the white people who committed these crimes are long dead. People from all walks of life, including white people do not live in a vacuum and cannot be prodded on or kicked on for long periods of time without any expectation of a blow-back. There is a proverb for this :- "You kick a dog long enough, that dog is going to bite you or die." In fact ,we are already starting to see the effects of this with the rise in nationalism and conservatism, particularly in Europe and UK. 

[Dermain]

Sleep "stimulus" brainwashing neither diverts tribalistic behavior nor does it make people aware of tribalistic behaviors. It suppresses them through forced mental conditioning. This does not solve the problem as all it does is create a boiling pot scenario where from the outset, it all looks fine but inside, there is a bubbling frothing mixture ready to explode and when it does go FUBAR, people are going to ask "Eh, what happened ?"

 

It's not brainwashing.

 

All they did was play a sound cue, that was present when they underwent "training" for overcoming social biases, when they were asleep in order to help reinforce the prior learning.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

It's not brainwashing.

 

All they did was play a sound cue, that was present when they underwent "training" for overcoming social biases, when they were asleep in order to help reinforce the prior learning.

 

Yes, and the camp that the Malaysian government made me attend before going overseas to study, where they spoke of how the Malays were solely responsible for Malaysia's prosperity or how Jews were to not be trusted because Quran says so or how racial superiority/inferiority is a good thing was a "national awareness" and "patriotism inducing" camp.

 

I have seen and been through actual brainwashing and survived. It was marketed as such.Look up Biro Tata Negara (BTN).

 

http://thenutgraph.c...s-stolen-msians

 

http://www.thenutgra...ng-the-btn-plot

 

 

Read through the lines of this supposed "training".  "Training" for social biases ? Why is the "training procedure not detailed or explained properly ? Why the need to play specific music when someone is asleep ? Why not while they are awake and fully conscious. 

[In Exile]

Holy ... okay. Look, first of all, the study explains exactly what it did to train participants vis-a-vis "bias", which isn't much of anything. The line is here: 

 

Forty participants processed counterstereotype information paired with one sound for each type of bias.

 

What this typically means is that they were given what you can call a counter IAT. In the usual IAT you make people quickly press buttons to match up categories that are consistent with stereotypes and that are inconsistent with stereotypes, then you switch it up a bunch of times, and see the differential in how reaction time worsens. Usually, the less people have a strong association between two ideas the more their reaction time gets messed up by switching categories a lot. In other words, what happens is that the IAT shows that people sort categories faster when they're consistent with stereotypes. Again, this isn't really "proof" of prejudice because it just measures how accessible a concept is rather than anything about belief, but let's put that aside. 

 

The "training" involves them having to practice doing the reverse (basically they get a repeated series of non-stereotypical pairs and have to learn to match them up faster and faster). Every single type of "prejudice" (e.g. racism, sexism, whatever) gets a unique sound that plays when you are matching them up.

 

Later on, people go to sleep. They play the sounds over and over again for some people while they sleep. The next day they take the IAT again. The finding is that the people who listened to the sound cue at night while they slept had improved performance vs. the people who didn't listen to the cue. The theory is that when we sleep we review our memories and that the more we do that - or the more strongly we do it - the more we improve our retention. The sound cue is proof that we can modify (or intervene) in this process by external means.

 

This is the most innocuous and irrelevant study. The IAT is literally this game but with racism and sexism instead of apples and cucumbers:

 

 

The idea that this is brainwashing people is idiotic. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

Incidentally, going to a hypno-therapist to quit smoking is brain washing as well.

If it is voluntary, I'm not sure where I come down on it. But if it is involuntary, hell-to-the-forking-nah.

 

It'll be fine. They'll just play some tones while you sleep so you agree its a good idea. Problem solved.

 

Presuming of course, that you're white. Because obviously skin-color is a reliable per-determination of behavioral patterns and how they can be modified. Obviously that's the case and its scientifically provable that skin-color has a direct behavior effect all on its own with no account for upbringing or environmental factors.

 

I mean, what kind of study looking into removing bias against people for presumed behavior based on arbitrary traits from people, would use arbitrary traits to determine whether a person would or would not exhibit the behavior to be biased.

[Dermain]

Yes, and the camp that the Malaysian government made me attend before going overseas to study, where they spoke of how the Malays were solely responsible for Malaysia's prosperity or how Jews were to not be trusted because Quran says so or how racial superiority/inferiority is a good thing was a "national awareness" and "patriotism inducing" camp.

 

I have seen and been through actual brainwashing and survived. It was marketed as such.Look up Biro Tata Negara (BTN).

 

http://thenutgraph.c...s-stolen-msians

 

http://www.thenutgra...ng-the-btn-plot

 

 

Read through the lines of this supposed "training".  "Training" for social biases ? Why is the "training procedure not detailed or explained properly ? Why the need to play specific music when someone is asleep ? Why not while they are awake and fully conscious. 

 

It was.

 

 

 

In both cases, bias reduction was expected because participants intentionally selected counterstereotype information intermixed with other information. Participants viewed several types of face-word pairing but were required to attend and respond only to pairings that countered the typical bias. Two unusual frequency-modulated sounds were presented during training, one after correct counter–gender bias responses and the other after correct counter–racial bias responses. To reinforce these associations, we administered another task wherein the same two sounds prompted participants to form a corresponding face-word pairing. Training thus established a strong association between each sound and one type of counterbias training.

 

The training consisted of telling the participants to actively choose answers that countered the bias. They then played a sound every time the subject chose the right answer, which was all of the time. In short, they classically trained the subjects to answer the IAT in a specific way with a sound cue. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

"Better" media is a very subjective term, just saying. And just because you think "Jean Grey" doesn't mean anything... the test doesn't "say 'science' and 'women' - what are you thinkng?" It would show the word "women" and ask you to correlate that with science or art, as an example. Would you choose art with women more frequently? Then you're sexist.

Besides, one could dissect further and say the fact that you envision a white woman (Jean Grey) with science instead of a minority woman is racist and proof of the bias in your brain. Associations are intertwined with every thought... everyone has them and, if put under a microscope, all would have things to point out.

 

What if i can't see a minority scientist getting into a love triangle with a sunglasses-all-the-time square and a short, hairy, canadian human-shaped-badger and then getting possessed by an intergalactic-flaming-bird-spirit?

 

I can't really see that being anything but a white people thing.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

What if i can't see a minority scientist getting into a love triangle with a sunglasses-all-the-time square and a short, hairy, canadian human-shaped-badger and then getting possessed by an intergalactic-flaming-bird-spirit?

 

I can't really see that being anything but a white people thing.

 

This. If you did not respond to the way they want you to, what would they do to you ? What if you do not agree to what the researchers think are racism and sexism ? What if you think that something that is supposedly sexist, for instance, wage gap, is actually not but rather a natural outcome of things ? What if you think that affirmative action is a bad thing for logical reasons and yet this is seen as racist ? 

 

I cannot see this as anything good or beneficial. I can understand if we were to gather a group of people, play word association games with them or show them stereotypical word pairings or images and then observe their brain activity with MRI scans and try to see if there is something there. That's research. 

 

This...no...I can see this being misused really easily...

[Dermain]

This. If you did not respond to the way they want you to, what would they do to you ? What if you do not agree to what the researchers think are racism and sexism ? What if you think that something that is supposedly sexist, for instance, wage gap, is actually not but rather a natural outcome of things ? What if you think that affirmative action is a bad thing for logical reasons and yet this is seen as racist ? 

 

I cannot see this as anything good or beneficial. I can understand if we were to gather a group of people, play word association games with them or show them stereotypical word pairings or images and then observe their brain activity with MRI scans and try to see if there is something there. That's research. 

 

This...no...I can see this being misused really easily...

 

Nothing unless they want to go to prison, and lose their degrees.

 

Unless they're working for a pharmaceutical company, then some shady stuff is actually occurring.

[Sully13]

A study released today in the journal Science states that white people can be reprogrammed to change negative attitudes towards women and minorities through a process that involves a short training program and using tones while they sleep.

http://m.sciencemag..../6238/1013.full

http://qz.com/414478...hile-you-sleep/


There are a number of holes in this study, mainly that they chose white-only university students, that the sample size was quite small for larger extrapolation and the nature of the prejudice bias test being less than ideally structured... still, it is an interesting concept. It is, essentially, effective brain washing to rid people of biases.

Is this ethical? Necessary? Good? Evil? I leave it up to the BSN to pass judgment.

that's because only white men can be predigest.

sure it is a good thing to study but being biased in the thing doesn't help.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Is this ethical? Necessary? Good? Evil? I leave it up to the BSN to pass judgment.

 

No

No

No

Yes

[Inquisitor Recon]

Why bother with all of these studies? I'm sure Stalin's Soviet Union did something similar they could just take the research data from.

[Sully13]

Yeah i think it was with Knitting needles and a car battery.

[Dermain]

Why bother with all of these studies? I'm sure Stalin's Soviet Union did something similar they could just take the research data from.

 

We can no longer (ethically) replicate it so that data is useless. 

[Sully13]

Ethics pfft wen will we relies ethics are useless. 

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

When an evil's organization is captured and defeated always use and learn their research's outcome for greater good but do not repeat those research.

[Fast Jimmy]

Jimmy could lowkey be a troll. He has the humor for it. Not about this though. Serious business here.

Super serial business.

[L. Han]

I'm not white, nor do I care about being one. But I can't help but feel that people are so obsessed with race that it comes off as a bit... creepy. All of em'. The racists, victims, the white knights, etc.

[Dermain]

I'm not white, nor do I care about being one. But I can't help but feel that people are so obsessed with race that it comes off as a bit... creepy. All of em'. The racists, victims, the white knights, etc.

 

Yep.