150 réponses à ce sujet

[Hazegurl]

Eh, Lazarus and Crucible are lore breaking.

Not really, perhaps convoluted maybe?  I wouldn't call them lore breaking.  The game did a decent job of weaving them into their plot.

 

I agree. The fact that the series was consistent surely help to make the ending even more out of place.

 

 

 

Yeah, ME was telling a pretty solid story for three games up until the ending.  Then it just seemed very disjointed.  Plus standing there for like fifteen minutes while the characters go into an exposition dump to try and make this ending make sense was just strange. It just seemed so glaringly obvious the ME team had no idea how to end this game.

 

This. 

 

For DA4, the devs should be doing these things :-  

 

1) Ask themselves what is DA is all about ? What does it stand for ? What are the elements that make DA to be DA ?

 

2) Improve consistency in art, character designs, gameplay and lore.

 

2) Bridge the gap between gameplay and lore, not widen it further.

 

I agree, the DA team need to stop making games for a moment and figure out what the heck their story is and how can they anchor it as something real and believable.  But a part of me thinks it's a bit too late. They've already made so many changes to the point where DA4 would be just another game with more changes done to it.  If it remain consistent then we wouldn't know until DA5.  A long time to wait for a company to get their act together.

[AresKeith]

This. 

 

For DA4, the devs should be doing these things :-  

 

1) Ask themselves what is DA is all about ? What does it stand for ? What are the elements that make DA to be DA ?

 

DA is always been about the events that happen within the Dragon Age, Bioware knows this. It's the fanbase that keep going on about the "What is DA?" 

 

2) Improve consistency in art, character designs, gameplay and lore.

 

I have a feeling the artstyle is gonna be more "consistent" after DAI

 

 

3) Bridge the gap between gameplay and lore, not widen it further.

 

So we're ignoring the fact that gameplay/lore segregation has always been a thing in video games and it's an issue when Bioware is doing it 

[Rawgrim]

DA is always been about the events that happen within the Dragon Age, Bioware knows this. It's the fanbase that keep going on about the "What is DA?" 

 

 

I have a feeling the artstyle is gonna be more "consistent" after DAI

 

 

So we're ignoring the fact that gameplay/lore segregation has always been a thing in video games and it's an issue when Bioware is doing it 

 

No it hasn't always been a thing. It is a fairly new thing, actually. TES scrolls all have gameplay that fits well with the lore. Every rpg based on the D&D rules has it too. The Drakensang has it. The Witcher games have gameplay that follows the lore.

 

DA is actually one of the few who doesn't.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

1) DA is always been about the events that happen within the Dragon Age, Bioware knows this. It's the fanbase that keep going on about the "What is DA?" 

 

 

2) I have a feeling the artstyle is gonna be more "consistent" after DAI

 

 

3) So we're ignoring the fact that gameplay/lore segregation has always been a thing in video games and it's an issue when Bioware is doing it 

 

1) Without any clear themes to ground these "events" or synchronize them properly, what you will end up having is an inconsistent franchise that is all over the place that, as Hazegurl rightfully points out, will just make things up as it goes. 

 

2) That is a statement of hope. Bioware and hope does not mesh really well. As such, I will be skeptical.

 

3) Gameplay and lore segregation has always been a thing that good developers try to reduce. This is especially true of role playing games. If you are playing the role of that particular character, the gameplay and combat should make sense and be consistent with the lore in order to enhance immersion, which in turn, enhances the role playing experience. On the other hand, Bioware has not even bothered to address this issue but saw fit to make it worse with every iteration of a particular game they make in a franchise. 

[Hiemoth]

DA is always been about the events that happen within the Dragon Age, Bioware knows this. It's the fanbase that keep going on about the "What is DA?" 

 

I agree with this completely and, while I have my issues with DAI, this argument has always confused me. All the three ME games had different themes they were built around while still clearly being members of the same game series.

 

The Dragon Age series is about period of time in the world of Thedas when multiple world-changing events, both political and supernatural, take place and tells the story of a world trying to adjust to those events. Since all the events have different parties involved and deal with different things, there is no one theme aside change that connects them all. I do not understand why that is so difficult to grasp?

 

If we are discussing approach to combat and gamestyle, then I agree that the game series is lacking a central approach which I hope they would finally be getting together, but that is less often mentioned during this criticism.

[Hiemoth]

1) Without any clear themes to ground these "events" or synchronize them properly, what you will end up having is an inconsistent franchise that is all over the place that, as Hazegurl rightfully points out, will just make things up as it goes. 

 

2) That is a statement of hope. Bioware and hope does not mesh really well. As such, I will be skeptical.

 

3) Gameplay and lore segregation has always been a thing that good developers try to reduce. This is especially true of role playing games. If you are playing the role of that particular character, the gameplay and combat should make sense and be consistent with the lore in order to enhance immersion, which in turn, enhances the role playing experience. On the other hand, Bioware has not even bothered to address this issue but saw fit to make it worse with every iteration of a particular game they make in a franchise. 

 

1) As mentioned above, since it is a world undergoing large changes from multiple fronts, it also deals with multiple different themes. Is your central vision here the world and conflicts of Thedas should be simplified to the point that one single theme can be applied to all events?

 

2) And a needless slam on the publisher.

 

3) An utterly meaningless definition. A good game developer makes good games that are great to play. If there is a mechanic in the previous iteration of the game that does not work in their opinion, it is their responsibility as good game developers to seek to improve it, even if it goes against the established lore. Once they have achieved that, they will seek to adjust the lore to match this new game mechanic. As almost all good developers will say/have said, game mechanics always come first, otherwise it is essentially a book.

 

Besides the division is ridiculously arbitrary. In previous games we would see someone being hit several times by a sword in battle and walk away without a scratch, yet in the next cutscene someone dies stabbed once. Yet these kinds of situations rarely draw such complaints about the lore not matching the mechanics.

[AresKeith]

I agree with this completely and, while I have my issues with DAI, this argument has always confused me. All the three ME games had different themes they were built around while still clearly being members of the same game series.

 

The Dragon Age series is about period of time in the world of Thedas when multiple world-changing events, both political and supernatural, take place and tells the story of a world trying to adjust to those events. Since all the events have different parties involved and deal with different things, there is no one theme aside change that connects them all. I do not understand why that is so difficult to grasp?

 

If we are discussing approach to combat and gamestyle, then I agree that the game series is lacking a central approach which I hope they would finally be getting together, but that is less often mentioned during this criticism.

 

Agreed

 

I'm also hoping they have combat locked down by the time they finish the DA series

[Apollexander]

Well, because the devs were "over-bashed". They received extremely harshed criticism such as "he should be fired", "he should be hanged", even "her children ...". Don't we remember the furious storm in 2011 and 2012? They were almost sentenced to hell and now are still blamed for "overcompensation"?

This just proves that extreme bash does not work, if you want to "help them to correct".

[KaiserShep]

Well, because the devs were "over-bashed". They received extremely harshed criticism such as "he should be fired", "he should be hanged", even "her children ...". Don't we remember the furious storm in 2011 and 2012? They were almost sentenced to hell and now are still blamed for "overcompensation"?

This just proves that extreme bash does not work, if you want to "help them to correct".

 

The fandom is a fickle super-organism.

[KaiserShep]

1) Ask themselves what is DA is all about ? What does it stand for ? What are the elements that make DA to be DA ?

 

Dragon Age is about one thing and one thing only: the history of calamities of Thedas during the Dragon Age. The thing I really like about the DAverse is that it's not bound to any particular kind of story or a particular kind of character. It doesn't have to stand for anything specific, because history is messy and random and anything can happen.

 

Yeah, ME was telling a pretty solid story for three games up until the ending.  Then it just seemed very disjointed.  Plus standing there for like fifteen minutes while the characters go into an exposition dump to try and make this ending make sense was just strange. It just seemed so glaringly obvious the ME team had no idea how to end this game.

 

I'm of the opinion that Mass Effect is disjointed from the very beginning, as it seemed like things were being made up as it went along (which it likely was), since the entire middle chapter of the series ultimately just seems like that rule of cool stuffing that pads the story into three full games. But aside from that, the major difference between Mass Effect and Dragon Age is that Mass Effect is about a single character, whereas Dragon Age is about its entire world.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Hopefully they'll overcompensate by giving us 100's of amazing side quests in the next game! 

[Rawgrim]

Hopefully they'll overcompensate by giving us 100's of amazing side quests in the next game! 

 

The people who wrote great side quests for previous Bioware games have all left the company. They are making games like Sword Coast Legends, Pillars of Eternity, and thing like that.

[Apollexander]

But aside from that, the major difference between Mass Effect and Dragon Age is that Mass Effect is about a single character, whereas Dragon Age is about its entire world.

Until the next ME

 

Hopefully they'll overcompensate by giving us 100's of amazing side quests in the next game! 

If they would overcompensate again, then we could almost expect something else weakened.

[Hiemoth]

The people who wrote great side quests for previous Bioware games have all left the company. They are making games like Sword Coast Legends, Pillars of Eternity, and thing like that.

 

No they haven't. Aside from constantly apparently thinking that DA team is the only team at Bioware, from what I understand there is a not of lot overlap between the team of DA and PoE, while SWC's central connection DAO is the director of the game, who probably had nothing to do with the writing of the DAO. Actually, the writing team, again from what I understand, is pretty much the same from DAO to DAI, with the loss of Jennifer Hepler being the largest that I know of.

[Panda]

Well, because the devs were "over-bashed". They received extremely harshed criticism such as "he should be fired", "he should be hanged", even "her children ...". Don't we remember the furious storm in 2011 and 2012? They were almost sentenced to hell and now are still blamed for "overcompensation"?

This just proves that extreme bash does not work, if you want to "help them to correct".

 

The thing is that there will be always hate on internet. It doesn't make it right, but when you make any piece of media that is popular it will be criticized, sometimes harsly and even unrelated things are brought in too. However I still think Bioware should stick on making small-moderate improvements with each DA rather than starting all over with every game. Now it seems like only story remain and almost everything else changes cause harsh critic towards sth.

 

Though I think hate mail and threats have to be seperated from criticism towards game too.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

The people who wrote great side quests for previous Bioware games have all left the company. They are making games like Sword Coast Legends, Pillars of Eternity, and thing like that.

 

Yeah but I'm sure the current writers can write.... at least Patrick Weeke can anyway (Sorry can't remember the other writers names). I think Bioware just didn't give enough time to making side quest and were too busy going 'LOOK EVERYONE! OPEN WORLD No more repeat dungeons!', that they just went complete over board and forgot that you need actual good content in to make it matter. I mean even DA2 had decent secondary quests and that's not even Bioware in their prime.

 

If they would overcompensate again, then we could almost expect something else weakened.

 

Hopefully the fetch quest and pointless giant skyhold will be shorter. I mean skyhold is nice looking but apart from talking to companions in it, I see no special appeal about it.

[BansheeOwnage]

 

Yeah, ME was telling a pretty solid story for three games up until the ending.  Then it just seemed very disjointed.  Plus standing there for like fifteen minutes while the characters go into an exposition dump to try and make this ending make sense was just strange. It just seemed so glaringly obvious the ME team had no idea how to end this game.

Bioware has done great endings in the past, such as ME1, especially ME2, and DA:O. They've also done kind of odd endings like DA2 (which at least felt like an ending), completely... something... endings with ME3, and totally boring and anticlimactic endings like DA:I. For ME3 especially, like you said, it looks like they threw something together at the last minute because they didn't plan the ending well. That's really scary considering it was a trilogy. You'd think writers would come up with an outline of what they want to happen first. How will it start? How will it end? What are some key events in between. Fill in the rest. It's very odd that it seemed like they wrote it in chronological order.

 

Anyway, my point is, out of the good endings I listed, they're older games, and all of the newer games are the worse ones. So I do fear that Bioware in general is losing their grip on how to end games.

[AlanC9]

I'm not sure I'd call ME1's ending great. The Saren-hopper was a silly waste of time, and the human-dominated Council never made any sense.

[wolfhowwl]

No they haven't. Aside from constantly apparently thinking that DA team is the only team at Bioware, from what I understand there is a not of lot overlap between the team of DA and PoE, while SWC's central connection DAO is the director of the game, who probably had nothing to do with the writing of the DAO. Actually, the writing team, again from what I understand, is pretty much the same from DAO to DAI, with the loss of Jennifer Hepler being the largest that I know of.

Knowles was apparently responsible for creating the Derpspawn.

[Hiemoth]

Knowles was apparently responsible for creating the Derpspawn.

 

I've seen references to this, but I've always been really sceptical about this since almost all the places I've seen stated basically was the sole person responsible for everything associated with the Darkspawn, which either makes him a horrible creative director in charge of a unit or then, as with most things related to Knowles, his impact on DAO has been greatly exaggaretad after his departure.

 

But I do have to admit that I forgot that he was involved with the writing even as the creative director, although David Gaider is still listed as the head writer of DAO. Which is also why I am so confused by those claims that Knowles created the Darkspawn by himself.

[KaiserShep]

Until the next ME

 

True, but from the looks of things, the next Mass Effect might not even involve the MEU as we knew it either.

[o Ventus]

Eh, Lazarus and Crucible are lore breaking.

Ehh, no they're not. Lazarus outright isn't breaking any lore, and the Crucible, while a major asspull with no prior basis in the plot, isn't breaking anything either.

[AlanC9]

Bioware be like
 

I would totally drive that.

[KaiserShep]

Needs more step bar.