Is she good? Pffffft. Not even a question. If I can do this solo on perilous, anyone can contribute meaningfully in a team environment.
The build is good but it was only possible for that solo to happen because of the hundreds and hundreds of promotions Drasca has. The class is not even close to being as good as its showcased in that video. 2.5k shield bash? lol.
Defensively, she focuses on WILL and CON with a lot of her passives, giving her some well-rounded defense again melee and magic attacks. She also has the passive There is no Darkness, which grants a 10% resistance to all elemental damage to the entire party... But I am still not certain if all of those "Templar" passive apply to Blessed Blades, or just Champions of the Just.
She does not get a lot of CUN, meaning her ranged defense is a bit weak, however.
I would still call her "one trick pony class".
And as against anyone else that makes that claim, I would simply say that your definition of her is entirely your own making. I personally find her to be one of the more versatile classes available, second to maybe to the Alchemist. If you play the "meta" game, then she will not work well because she does the "Jack of all Trades, Master of None" theme, again like the Alchemist. This reason is also probably why many find the Alchemist to be underwhelming.
It's a common thing in multiplayer games for a person to only focus on dealing damage and mitigating damage. Sometimes if a person does not see clear damage being dealt or mitigated, they will often write that class off. Any crowd-control or support player would know that is a foolish mistake.
Still, her crowd-control is decent, her damage is good, her support is excellent. If you want to confine her to the Wrath Purge box, then by all means do. It's your choice.
She does not get a lot of CUN, meaning her ranged defense is a bit weak, however.
Turn the Bolt / Turn the Blade --> Max Ranged Defense from front.
she does the "Jack of all Trades, Master of None" theme, again like the Alchemist. This reason is also probably why many find the Alchemist to be underwhelming.
Except she's the master of tanky point burst dps vs mobs, whereas Alchemist just doesn't have the damage. I think my latest figures were around 20k for max combo damage.
She has options to either some support, more defense or more offense
Still it's useless vs RTC and dragon.
I wouldn't call more of XYZ useless. I've already proven she's not useless vs Dragon via SW tanking + SB absolutely annihilating Dragon's Guard. I'm certainly not the only one that can, as there's new players that never used my builds before that were able to do so.
Do I need to do a Templar RTC video to show you how to Templar vs RTC? Common kiting / ESS / Leap dodging methods still apply, SW still applies, basic attack cancels in-between, and more exotic shock weapon + crippling blows applies as well
Except she's the master of tanky point burst dps vs mobs...
Um... You just mixed two roles there, and illustrated my point.
I say that her damage is only decent because the Wrath Purge is really the bulk of it, and without a high degree of promotions/crit/stamina gear then it can only be used to nuke a spawn. That tactic become especially painful on FC where mobs don't group up as much. I would hardly call that "master of" by any means.
That's not do say her damage is bad... It means that other classes can sustain better consistent DPS.
As a tank goes: Same idea. She can take the hits, but really has limited taunting, and thus works better at tanking with choke-points/crowd-control. Obviously, the Legionnaire does the tank role much better.
As I said, Jack of All Trades, Master of None. She's good a lot of stuff, but not the best at any one of them. Her Leader abilities are the closest to "master of", but even then she has been completely eclipsed by the Virtuoso in Leader abilities now.
That's not do say her damage is bad... It means that other classes can sustain better consistent DPS.
Your point was also master of none. That is not true. I also didn't claim she was sustained dps, but burst or instantaneous damage. She's definitely the best there, and arguably even better at guard smashing than Lego, because of the placement of the guard-smasher passive (not all Legos take TTD, but Templars have room to take guard smasher)
As a tank goes: Same idea. She can take the hits, but really has limited taunting, and thus works better at tanking with choke-points/crowd-control. Obviously, the Legionnaire does the tank role much better.
"Better" still meaning tanking is not useful outside of very niche situations. See previous post about killing everything not RTC/Dragon in under 5 seconds. For the Templar, it is about 2-3 seconds -- after which point an entire other mob needs time to get to the Templar.
Taunting sucks by itself. Templar CC's by AoE stunning then annihilating them.
Your point was also master of none. That is not true. I also didn't claim she was sustained dps, but burst or instantaneous damage.
"Better" still meaning tanking is not useful outside of very niche situations.
My point was Jack of All Trades, Master of None. Two points there. She can do a lot of stuff, but is not the best at any of it. I did not originally specify burst or sustained DPS. Merely that she is decent at damage. No qualifiers. Adding that definition means that she needs to be pigeon-holed into a specific term to be "master of", which is again proving my point. Defender (Tank), Controller (CC), Striker (DPS), Leader (Support)... She can do a bit of all of them, but there are classes that do each of them individually better. It's the Specialist versus Generalist idea. The Templar is a Generalist.
Now, let's cover something here: Tanking is very useful in a lot of situations... If the people playing are not you (or have your similar stats/promotions). Please, Drasca, when you make a claim about the general usefulness of something, take your stats/gear out of the equation, as only a small portion of players have end-game stats/gear. Not everyone has 100+ Cunning/Constitution/Willpower, so it is completely fair to say many other players will take a lot more damage than you. The more damage that a player can potentially take as a non-tank increases the usefulness of a tank dramatically.
And as against anyone else that makes that claim, I would simply say that your definition of her is entirely your own making. I personally find her to be one of the more versatile classes available, second to maybe to the Alchemist. If you play the "meta" game, then she will not work well because she does the "Jack of all Trades, Master of None" theme, again like the Alchemist. This reason is also probably why many find the Alchemist to be underwhelming.
It's a common thing in multiplayer games for a person to only focus on dealing damage and mitigating damage. Sometimes if a person does not see clear damage being dealt or mitigated, they will often write that class off. Any crowd-control or support player would know that is a foolish mistake.
Still, her crowd-control is decent, her damage is good, her support is excellent. If you want to confine her to the Wrath Purge box, then by all means do. It's your choice.
I agree with the bit in bold, she can be fairly tanky, decent dps but more importantly I find her guard and shield stripping very useful especially on Perilous. I have tried the wrath of heaven + spell purge combo and found it to be both boring and inefficient (cool downs are way to long for my liking and I dont have the promotion levels to almost always guarantee a crit like that video illustrated.
I prefer the magic dwarven mace over the dragon sword since you can create a chain reaction to 1 shoot stun immune mosnters. Just that I have to relly more on guard and can't put crit+ in the mace to reduce the cool down quicker. Mace generate more stamnia than the sword even through the damage is lower than the sword I can still blow up lots of monsters in perilious/threatening if I have enogh next to me.
The build is good but it was only possible for that solo to happen because of the hundreds and hundreds of promotions Drasca has. The class is not even close to being as good as its showcased in that video. 2.5k shield bash? lol.
Yea...I was playing my Templar earlier, and with upgraded War Horn (for the luls) I wasn't even critting that high, and I have almost 60 Willpower, and I think I was wearing the 20% crit damage ring with Caliban (not sure what he was using)...So yea...dose promotions doe....
Now, let's cover something here: Tanking is very useful in a lot of situations.
Very few. Enemies will die before Tanking is required. If you want to dispute things can't be burst damaged, I'm sure I can find combos where they are. I doubt you'll dispute it, but I'll still demonstrate if I need to. If you want to argue pugs won't use said combos, they're irrelevant as pugs are going to be on average bad regardless. Pugs are also more likely to play on non-perilous, where burst damage also is more important than tanking.
so it is completely fair to say many other players will take a lot more damage than you.
Mostly due to their own mistakes. Every player and kit has both movement (control of space) and cover (terrain advantage) available to them as force multipliers. For the Templar, you still ignore the turn the bolt / turn the blade options specifically for templar & lego... and outright invincibility via Unyielding for both.
If you're complain about promotions it means you're out of useful arguements. You're still wrong about burst damage, and 'master of none', and she's still a better 'specialist' (your own made up means of artificially categorizing these classes, not really necessary to them to begin with) while remain decent at other aspects as well.
I can do some specific things you cannot (solo'ing / damage to health), but guess what, there's a lot more things that everyone can do that render those very few specific things irrelevant in a team environment.
You cannot argue there are no combos that wipe everything off the map, or team plays that are completely safe for the team. Barrier & Hometown Anthem are completely OP and makes everyone a potential tank. Sure I have an upward 1.5-2.5k health depending on kit, everyone gets 4-9k spammable barrier with Keeper/Virtuoso/Multiple Barrier casters. At that point it is just a matter of what CC, and DPS you want to bring.
I prefer the magic dwarven mace over the dragon sword since you can create a chain reaction to 1 shoot stun immune mosnters. Just that I have to relly more on guard and can't put crit+ in the mace to reduce the cool down quicker. Mace generate more stamnia than the sword even through the damage is lower than the sword I can still blow up lots of monsters in perilious/threatening if I have enogh next to me.
Dwarven Crusher is best on Routine and Threatening. At Perilous, Sword attack-cancels with Caliban is best, followed by the Dragon Longsword. You're correct in putting +critical chance onto your 1H weapon. You'll want to aim for about 50%-66% critical chance overall (this is achievable) between your accessories, weapon upgrade, cunning, and team passives (archers and virtuoso's have +5% critical for team) . As your cunning increases, you'll want to switch out for Critical Bonus Damage gear.
Yea...I was playing my Templar earlier, and with upgraded War Horn (for the luls) I wasn't even critting that high, and I have almost 60 Willpower, and I think I was wearing the 20% crit damage ring with Caliban (not sure what he was using)...So yea...dose promotions doe....
The base critical chance is through cunning, but the willpower isn't the main damage performer, it is +critical damage gear. The video is pre-T3 weapon upgrades. I can do far more now (3-5k ish) with all critical damage bonus gear.
Specifically 2x SCDB Rings, Upgraded Caliban with Dense Longsword upgrade (Offense leather / Offense Metal) using Craggy Hide and Everite for Critical damage bonus and attack %.
Willpower actually as a very small effect on final damage (especially for abilities with damage bonus involved), but stacking the critical damage bonus gear has a major effect on everything.
If you want to go damage, you should go all-out for it.
Yea, I was using a SCDB ring, but I think I went for Atk and more HoK for my Caliban upgrade. So even still, 1 extra ring and the (maybe 10%?) extra from the weapon upgrade isn't going to make my Sheild Bash hit anywhere near yours. I'm not trying to start **** with you, I just think it's a little misleading how you sometimes comment on the ability/difficulty when you have a pretty big advantage on even people like me (who I think I play too much) let alone someone like the OP, as I'm guessing as he needs to ask about how good a character is, he's not super experienced.
I'm with you on the Zither thing though. As overpowered as he is, I do like how it's made a lot of kits I normally wouldn't run on Perilous work just fine. My buddy was running him one day and it made Perilous feel like threatening, and half the time we had people running level 1s and still did ok. I just wish there was more support options in this game, and tanking was actually viable.
1. Very few. Enemies will die before Tanking is required. If you want to dispute things can't be burst damaged, I'm sure I can find combos where they are. I doubt you'll dispute it, but I'll still demonstrate if I need to. If you want to argue pugs won't use said combos, they're irrelevant as pugs are going to be on average bad regardless. Pugs are also more likely to play on non-perilous, where burst damage also is more important than tanking.
2. Mostly due to their own mistakes.
3. If you're complain about promotions it means you're out of useful arguements. You're still wrong about burst damage, and 'master of none', and she's still a better 'specialist' (your own made up means of artificially categorizing these classes, not really necessary to them to begin with) while remain decent at other aspects as well.
4. You cannot argue there are no combos that wipe everything off the map, or team plays that are completely safe for the team. Barrier & Hometown Anthem are completely OP and makes everyone a potential tank.
Let's take this in segments, shall we?
1. I don't even know what this rebuttal is trying counter... I made no claim about PUGs using combos or how good burst damage is or not. I said that tanking is quite useful for a large majority of players. Unless you are a top-spec player, things to not immediately disintegrate at your approach, so tanking has merit to keep the enemies occupied. Note that I did not say it is required, which you seem to be assuming. Lots of conjecture here.
2. I was not talking about skill, but stats, and it was quite clear. If you get hit by an attack, you will take considerably less damage than me from that same exact attack. It's math, not skill. You have more promotions, and thus take less damage. I made no statement about the skill of the player. Whether a person can dodge the attack was irrelevant to my point. Translation: You are trying to divert the conversation.
3. Nope. You made the claim about how quickly things die and the damage you do, and failed to account and disclaim your stats/gear. That was your own faulty argument. You wish to see things in your own way, that fine. The fact remains that there are abilities that do damage, ones that mitigate damage, ones that taunt, ones that buff allies/debuff enemies, and ones that inhibit enemy movement. My categorization (taken from D&D) is based off those concepts. You can try to discredit my argument based on the fact that I seek to categorize this, but it still does not take away from the fact that the Templar has damage, mitigation, CC, buffs, debuffs, and taunts. However, because she has so much diveristy, it is really hard for her to focus on just damage, just CC, just buffs/debuffs, or just taunts (etc etc). That. Is. A. Generalist. *sigh*
4. I am not arguing that, and it appears to be your attempt to divert the topic. Sorry. Failed. The Templar is still a generalist.
Are we going to have to get into the conjecture/diversion conversation again?
Mostly due to their own mistakes.
And absolutely nothing to do with the fact that you have like what, 400 promotions, yeah, im sure that has nothing to do with it.
We have already established that at this point you are playing less than threatening tier enemies due to the fact that on your own 'demonstrations', its clear to see that you take significantly less damage than 99.9% of players here. Any attempt to try and convince us that promotions have little or nothing to do with your survivability is just making you look ignorant and stupid.
Yea, I was using a SCDB ring, but I think I went for Atk and more HoK for my Caliban upgrade. So even still, 1 extra ring and the (maybe 10%?) extra from the weapon upgrade isn't going to make my Sheild Bash hit anywhere near yours.
As I said, willpower does not affect damage much in many cases. More specifically +attack %. You need to switch over to all +critical damage gear if you want high damage maximums.
Ideally as I listed above. Dense Longsword has 7 Offense leather (3% CDB per Craggy skin), which is 21%.
2x SCDB Rings are 2 x 20% = 40%
Base CDB is 40%
Caliban is 5% Damage bonus per enemy within 8m (Typically surrounded by x3, x5, x10 enemies, for +15%, +25%,+ 50%, etc)
You can add a dexterity amulet for 5% more CDB as well, but I personally prefer Superb Stamina Amulet here.
So assuming you only used your 10% upgrade and one 20% SCDB Ring, I have 31% more than you do in absolute terms but in actual terms these interact with each other differently:
40+20+20+31 = 131% Critical damage bonus, which is a 2.31 multiplier on everything if I crit. There's also caliban which can act up to a 1.5x multiplier on everything, with a minimum of 1.05 multiplier (one enemy). Factored together, you can do almost 3.5x damage on critical while surrounded vs non critical damage.
Caliban is around 200 damage, and Shield bash is 400% weapon damage. That's roughly 800 damage when not hitting guard, before attack % is factored in (and other factors). If we factor that 2.31 - 3.5 CBD in, that's 1.8k damage (0 enemies) to 2.8k damage (10 enemies) before other factors on critical. . This is enough to one-shot most enemies on Threatening, weaker enemies on perilous, and two shot them on Perilous. This number obviously increases with other factors, as I have not added them in.
Reference:
Weapon, Weapon Crafting and Crafting Materials tab of Shadoz spreadsheet listed in
http://forum.bioware...pment-document/
General Mechanics / Critical Damage
http://forum.bioware...mbat-mechanics/
Let's take this in segments, shall we?
1. I said that tanking is quite useful for a large majority of players
You still don't accept it is not, because you assume your hypothetical play is more prevelant than how people actually play. i.e. burst damage vs limited enemy health across all difficulties.
. I was not talking about skill, but stats, and it was quite clear.
Wild goose arguement rendered irrelevant by in-game abilities (movement, barrier, cover)
and the damage you do,
The damage EVERYBODY can do. You still fail to realize how fast stuff dies, (or potentially dies in perilous) and would rather imagine it is just me than everyone that kills extremely quickly, especially at lower difficulties.
The Templar is still a generalist.
Again, irrelevant. She kills instantaneously faster than anything else. That's the important part. Your categorization as 'generalist' is meaningless.
So you're saying if I put Crit Dam on my Caliban, get another SCrit Dam ring, my Sheild Bash will crit for 2.5k? When it's not even doing that with upgraded War Horn?
So you're saying if I put Crit Dam on my Caliban, get another SCrit Dam ring, my Sheild Bash will crit for 2.5k? When it's not even doing that with upgraded War Horn?
Thats what he is trying to justify yes, because he can't bear to admit that his sky high stats are 90% of the reason he does well in this game. Even if he modded his files to cheat like he is well known to do, then he would still insist its his 1337 gameplay that is the key to his success.
Thats what he is trying to justify yes, because he can't bear to admit that his sky high stats are 90% of the reason he does well in this game. Even if he modded his files to cheat like he is well known to do, then he would still insist its his 1337 gameplay that is the key to his success.
Don't forget the condescending source material.
Again, irrelevant. She kills instantaneously faster than anything else. That's the important part. Your categorization as 'generalist' is meaningless.
Sorry, you don't get off that easy. You completely failed by trying to first claim the Templar is a specialist, and, failing that, claim it's irrelevant? No, sorry. The Templar is still a generalist. You have thus done the intellectual equivalent of covering your ears and scream, "La la la".
And my "hypothetical" world is not hypothetical, it's how people play when they don't have end-game stats/gear like you... and I can actually prove it:
Keep in mind, again, that I said useful not required. And don't bother with the "this video is old" rebuttal. It still applies even today, as only minor parts about this have changed (most of which making me better as a tank).
Even if he modded his files to cheat like he is well known to do.
I mean this in the most respectful way, because I quite enjoy talking with you and I know Drasca is difficult to be around, but if you are accuse someone of something this serious, please substantiate it and don't appeal to the people with "everyone knows he does this". I honestly have no idea if he does any such thing. I do know he has incredibly high promotions, which are obviously skewing his view, but I have not seen evidence of anything other than him "no-life'ing" the game.
So you're saying if I put Crit Dam on my Caliban, get another SCrit Dam ring, my Sheild Bash will crit for 2.5k? When it's not even doing that with upgraded War Horn?
Under the right conditions, yes. Note I listed how many enemies you need to be around. More specifically it'll crit at a range, and getting exactly 2.5k is not likely, but you'll be in the ballpark when you do crit.
However, War-horn is an ability found on 2H Warrior kits, Horn of Valor is on Templar. You need to actually look at the Damage Calculation here to correctly interpret HoV's damage bonus. It is not multiplicative with everything like Critical Damage is.
http://forum.bioware...mbat-mechanics/
Don't forget the condescending source material.
There are people that don't read up, and like to deny anything they can't do themselves. I ask you, would you rather take the opportunity to grab more power, or do as others do and complain it can't be done instead.
So what will it be, are you going to actually try to do more damage or be like the other ignorant losers that refuse to get better when presented knowledge and opportunity.
Really, it doesn't matter what I do for me, but how I do things to improve your own gameplay. It is still up to you to accept actually getting better though. Hint: Don't be a loser.
And my "hypothetical" world is not hypothetical, it's how people play when they don't have end-game stats/gear like you... and I can actually prove it
LOL Private game Anecdotes as proof? Really? Do I really need to bring out the countless videos of pugs on Threatening & Routine or the stats that they actually play lower difficulties FAR more than Perilous.
Yes you play in la-la land Mortiel. That isn't a bad thing, but it isn't representative of how people actually play across all games.
There are people that don't read up, and like to deny anything they can't do themselves. I ask you, would you rather take the opportunity to grab more power, or do as others do and complain it can't be done instead.
So what will it be, are you going to actually try to do more damage or be like the other ignorant losers that refuse to get better when presented knowledge and opportunity.
Really, it doesn't matter what I do for me, but how I do things to improve your own gameplay. It is still up to you to accept actually getting better though. Hint: Don't be a loser.
Wow. Just wow. Hello Pot, my name is Kettle. Nice to meet you!
Yes you play in la-la land Mortiel. That isn't a bad thing, but it isn't representative of how people actually play across all games.
See your above quote for an example of "la la land". That was not a prearranged lobby. I randomly saw lspan in a PUG match and we partied up and took her newbie friend through Perilous. Simple as that. I chose the Legionnaire because they were playing mostly ranged classes. She can confirm that if she is still around.
See, I play PUG matches most of the time. I also spend a lot of time just watching other people play. And I, unlike some people, don't kick players from my lobby for playing a specific class. I think we both know whom has a better sample of how people really play, Drasca. I don't call people "losers" for not playing my way, because I am not so arrogant to assume I am somehow a "god" of all things Dragon Age.
Unlike some people that insult someone trying to give them friendly advice. (Hint: Don't be a Drasca)
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