141 réponses à ce sujet

[Sulaco_7]

Can we just merge this thread into the Avvar video one?  It might have started differently, but it's ending the same way...

[Pork]

Can we just merge this thread into the Avvar video one?  It might have started differently, but it's ending the same way...

 

Both threads have one common denominator unfortunately.  

 

To answer OP and hopefully get back on topic: Yes, templar is great against templars with the Mage Hunter passive, though she can struggle vs Venatori, especially with multiple brutes. 

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

Can we just merge this thread into the Avvar video one?  It might have started differently, but it's ending the same way...

 

Drasca's involved. Of course it did.

 

A summary of two different conversations with Drasca:

Conversation #1:

"I am Drasca and am always right."

 

"Yes, I agree. You have the correct info."

"I know, because I am Drasca and can never be wrong"

Conversation #2:

"I am Drasca and am always right."

"Uh, no you aren't. Here are arguments."

"Arguments are invalid because I am Drasca and can never be wrong."

(Repeat ad nauseaum.)


*sigh* I honestly do not know why I even bother debating him. Even if I debate him to a standstill, he just throws a tantrum and claims everything I said is invalid.

[Hellsteeth30]

Are these crazy kids at it again?

You know what? It's actually a good way to learn the game a bit. The drama makes me read it closer.

So pay attention newbies, when the big dogs start barking have a good gander.

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

Are these crazy kids at it again?

You know what? It's actually a good way to learn the game a bit. The drama makes me read it closer.

So pay attention newbies, when the big dogs start barking have a good gander.

 

In a strangely comical way, you are absolutely right. When some BSNers argue, this strange cosmic irregularity happens: We start researching more the more heated the debate becomes. At least I do. I start questing my claims before I start arguing, especially since I was rather publicly embarrassed some months ago because I decided to make a completely incorrect objective claim and stubbornly argued it without any evidence. It lead to me realizing I needed to take a break from BSN. Live and learn, yeah?

[Hellsteeth30]

Precisely.

I have actually learned a fair bit from you two broadsiding each other.

You can learn a hell of a lot from conflict if you don't get too caught up in it.

[Drasca]

 claims everything I said is invalid.

 

Not everything, Mr Contrarian, just what I pointed out that's flat wrong or irrelevant. Why would I point out stuff that's valid unless to grok more about it?

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

Not everything, Mr Contrarian, just what I pointed out that's flat wrong or irrelevant. Why would I point out stuff that's valid unless to grok more about it?

 

Just stop, Drasca. I know you can continue to argue about nothing, even to the point of literally making up your own debate about a topic completely unrelated to what was being discussed, but the argument is finished now.

[scynn]

Under the right conditions, yes. Note I listed how many enemies you need to be around. More specifically it'll crit at a range, and getting exactly 2.5k is not likely, but you'll be in the ballpark when you do crit.

 

However, War-horn is an ability found on 2H Warrior kits, Horn of Valor is on Templar. You need to actually look at the Damage Calculation here to correctly interpret HoV's damage bonus. It is not multiplicative with everything like Critical Damage is.

 

http://forum.bioware...mbat-mechanics/

 

 

 

There are people that don't read up, and like to deny anything they can't do themselves. I ask you, would you rather take the opportunity to grab more power, or do as others do and complain it can't be done instead.

 

So what will it be, are you going to actually try to do more damage or be like the other ignorant losers that refuse to get better when presented knowledge and opportunity.

 

Really, it doesn't matter what I do for me, but how I do things to improve your own gameplay. It is still up to you to accept actually getting better though. Hint: Don't be a loser.

 

The 2.5k was a ballpark figure, as it is what I saw the majority of your isolated Sheild Bashs hit. Thanks for the yet again condescending reply. I totally didn't realize the RNG of numbers. I thought FOR SURE I would hit 2.5k on the nose. Eyes opened. We both know a ring and a weapon upgrade will not make up for the lack of promotions. It's lunacy to suggest otherwise. And the whole Caliban Fade-Touchesque ability is a moot point because it will just turn your 2.5k crits (ROUGHLY LOL!) into much higher ones. Doesn't change the fact that if I swapped grips and got another SCritDam ring, I still wouldn't see your numbers. I wonder why. Can't be the promotions.

 

And speaking of promotions, lets ignore the damage output in your video, and look at the damage taken. You took multiple Wraith shots and a lesser demon melee and didn't even lose a full health bubble. The amount of range/melee defense, and to a lesser extent health pool isn't from your rings or weapon grip. I wonder where it's from? Can't be promotions.

 

Reading source material isn't going to make promotions magically appear. 

[apocalypse_owl]

I mean this in the most respectful way, because I quite enjoy talking with you and I know Drasca is difficult to be around, but if you are accuse someone of something this serious, please substantiate it and don't appeal to the people with "everyone knows he does this". I honestly have no idea if he does any such thing. I do know he has incredibly high promotions, which are obviously skewing his view, but I have not seen evidence of anything other than him "no-life'ing" the game.

Check his Mass effect 3 profile (hint, you cant because its private now). Coalesced edits galore. Heroicmass brought this to light in a thread about archer damage a while ago when he was being told to l2p.

[yarpenthemad21]

And as against anyone else that makes that claim, I would simply say that your definition of her is entirely your own making. I personally find her to be one of the more versatile classes available, second to maybe to the Alchemist. If you play the "meta" game, then she will not work well because she does the "Jack of all Trades, Master of None" theme, again like the Alchemist. This reason is also probably why many find the Alchemist to be underwhelming.
 
It's a common thing in multiplayer games for a person to only focus on dealing damage and mitigating damage. Sometimes if a person does not see clear damage being dealt or mitigated, they will often write that class off. Any crowd-control or support player would know that is a foolish mistake.
 
Still, her crowd-control is decent, her damage is good, her support is excellent. If you want to confine her to the Wrath Purge box, then by all means do. It's your choice.

if you "remove" wombo jombo from equation and talk about damage, you can't be serious really calling her damage "decent". I would say "lowest" and I'm pretty sure it's more true.
Even Lego, without wombo jombo out dps templar. Lunge and slash hits like shield bash x2 and lego have all 3 offensive shield skills, templar has 2, lacking the highest dps one.
Defense? Lego is better. Challenge sucks, we all know it, as guard generator only unbowed really works.

Support you say is excellent. In theory.
You can't count blessed blades as support. It's demon only damage bonus (I've checked it works only for demons, passives don't matter). Blessed blades are here for cooldown reduction, not for support.
What we have next.
Horn of Valor. Damage buff. Great, still it's one skill, you can easily take this and wombo jombo.
Line in the sand - you can't be serious, this skill is so much useless.
Bodyguard - looks great on paper. Damage reduction, damage transfer. With shield wall can generate guard. But practice shows otherwise.
1) It's counterproductive with barrier. Barrier is there to soak damage, shielding barrier is just waste of time.
2) Shield wall + bodyguard = templar standing doing nothing without stamina after couple of seconds. No stamina, no abilities, no abilites = auto to the death
3) it could be "decent" with passive that gives stamina for every damage soaked, but we don't have it.
4) You can die because of stupid players. You will get more damage if someone have barrier (because armor don't work there so numbers are higher)

So to sum up. Decent skills are:
horn of valor
shield bash
shield wall mostly for animation cancel

So just pick 2 of those and add wombo combo. You have templar build.

It is one trick pony. Like necro. You can argue ages but build on necro without walking bomb is just a bad build. The same problem has templar. Without wombo combo templar is either poor mans lego or some "I'm supporting you doing nothing" kind of kit.

[Drasca]

And speaking of promotions, lets ignore the damage output in your video, and look at the damage taken. You took multiple Wraith shots

 

the fact that if I swapped grips and got another SCritDam ring, I still wouldn't see your numbers

 

Ignorance, and more willful ignorance. Obviously Scynn is unteachable and refuses to even try (because in actuality he could do than the 2.5k listed), but hopefully everyone else who genuinely want more power is not:
 

Magical Defense (what will power grants) does not defend against spirit damage, which is what wraiths do the majority of the time.

 

To those wanting damage, you need to load up on +critical chance and +critical damage bonus, which means cunning promotions and the respective upgrades on weapons and accessories. The willpower and +attack % upgrades are of lesser value.

[scynn]

Ignorance, and more willful ignorance. Obviously Scynn is unteachable and refuses to even try (because in actuality he could do than the 2.5k listed), but hopefully everyone else who genuinely want more power is not:
 

Magical Defense (what will power grants) does not defend against spirit damage, which is what wraiths do the majority of the time.

 

To those wanting damage, you need to load up on +critical chance and +critical damage bonus, which means cunning promotions and the respective upgrades on weapons and accessories. The willpower and +attack % upgrades are of lesser value.

 

Again you dance around my point; I asked if I added another crit damage ring and the weapon grip, how it would magically make my sheild bash do that much more damage. The example I used was your 2.5k crits around the start of the videos. I'd love to actually give you numbers of my Templar just to compare how ludacris you're being about this, but I frankly don't care enough to level up my templar to 12, because then I'd have to level it to 20 as my OCD wouldn't allow an unprest'd toon.

 

Ignorance is not the same as not believing your BS, Drasca. I have never said you're a bad player, or that you don't know what you're talking about. All I was trying to point out is that you fail to see how much promotions actually matter. The OP asked if a class was good, and you came in with "If I can solo Perilous, than anyone can contribute" like we're all garbage. Not mentioning that BECAUSE you can do this is your stats are astronomically better than most everyone else, in combination with your knowledge/skill of the game. 

 

And, for the record, when I mentioned the Wraith's that shot you, they were fire. In the beginning of the video when you round the corner, one hits you and the barely dent your first HP bubble. I remember when that was almost a one shot.

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

if you "remove" wombo jombo from equation and talk about damage, you can't be serious really calling her damage "decent". I would say "lowest" and I'm pretty sure it's more true.
Even Lego, without wombo jombo out dps templar. Lunge and slash hits like shield bash x2 and lego have all 3 offensive shield skills, templar has 2, lacking the highest dps one.
Defense? Lego is better. Challenge sucks, we all know it, as guard generator only unbowed really works.

Support you say is excellent. In theory.
You can't count blessed blades as support. It's demon only damage bonus (I've checked it works only for demons, passives don't matter). Blessed blades are here for cooldown reduction, not for support.
What we have next.
Horn of Valor. Damage buff. Great, still it's one skill, you can easily take this and wombo jombo.
Line in the sand - you can't be serious, this skill is so much useless.
Bodyguard - looks great on paper. Damage reduction, damage transfer. With shield wall can generate guard. But practice shows otherwise.
1) It's counterproductive with barrier. Barrier is there to soak damage, shielding barrier is just waste of time.
2) Shield wall + bodyguard = templar standing doing nothing without stamina after couple of seconds. No stamina, no abilities, no abilites = auto to the death
3) it could be "decent" with passive that gives stamina for every damage soaked, but we don't have it.
4) You can die because of stupid players. You will get more damage if someone have barrier (because armor don't work there so numbers are higher)

So to sum up. Decent skills are:
horn of valor
shield bash
shield wall mostly for animation cancel

So just pick 2 of those and add wombo combo. You have templar build.

It is one trick pony. Like necro. You can argue ages but build on necro without walking bomb is just a bad build. The same problem has templar. Without wombo combo templar is either poor mans lego or some "I'm supporting you doing nothing" kind of kit.

 

Nah, I was accounting for the Wrath Purge combo when I said damage was decent, since that really is about the extent of her damage. It's still damage, though, regardless. And it's decent. Not the best, just decent.

 

I do want to point out that you are largely restating what I have been telling Drasca here for the past while: The Templar can do a lot of things, just not exceptionally well. She has a bunch of different role skills, but not enough of a single type to really focus on it.

 

Now, regarding your view on skills, I can only say that I have had a very different experience than you with Bodyguard and Line in the Sand. I can say that much of that is likely because I do host about 70% of the time and because I do not insist on Barrier being present in every game I play.  I also play with things in a quite different way than you, which is why I said it's largely a difference of opinion.

 

However, you have made your point clear: You will also see the Templar without the combo as useless, just as you see the Necromancer without Walking Bomb as useless. You views are your own, and I will not debate that. I will, however, share that I have had a quite different experience from you, as I have build a pure Cryomancer out of Sidony and my pure Leader build out of Belinda, and had fun with both.

 

Magical Defense (what will power grants) does not defend against spirit damage, which is what wraiths do the majority of the time.

 

I just caught this. Please provide a source/proof here, since I can find no evidence showing specifically Spirit damage ignoring magic defense. Last I checked, it was lessened by both magic defense and spirit resistance multiplicatively.

[ThatBruhYouDK]

Lego is better. Challenge sucks, we all know it, as guard generator only unbowed really works.

Ignoring the rest of this post. I will focus on this part, unless I read wrong you said unbowed is good for Lego. I personally don't use it. To The Death, in my experience, is better for guard gain. I use it with Counterstrike, War Cry and Payback Strike and am constantly taunting enemies and gaining guard. I hate unbowed though, so maybe I am biased. but what I use works for me very well 

[Dick Dastardly]

I two would be interested in this 'proof' last time I checked magic defence was applicable to all element types including spirit.

[apocalypse_owl]

Magic defence reduces damage from fire, cold, lightning and spirit damage. Anybody whi says otherwise is just denying reality.

[Cavemandiary]

Has anyone effectively run upgraded bodyguard+horn of valor on her?

[Pork]

Screencap from that Avvar video a few days ago. Wraith damage is around 65 or so.

 

Screencap from Drascas solo video, wraith damage is around 22. 

 

Neither party used any magic resistance armor upgrades or equipment. 

 

Drascas declared willpower is 130 or 60% effective magic resistance. 

 

The OP of the other threads declared stats is 49 willpower or 19.5% magic resistance. 

 

The Avvar does not have any passives which increase willpower, the Templar does. The templar has + 6 willpower from passives (+9 if taking Mage Hunter, which Drasca does not) and 10% spirit resistance from 'There is no darkness'.

 

This brings Drascas magic resistance up to a grand total of 73%.

 

Wraiths deal ~80 damage base and ignore armor values, so we don't need to factor this in.

 

Avvar has 19.5% magic resistance, so wraiths will deal 80.5% damage here:

 

80 / 100 = 0.8

 

0.8 * 80.5 = 64.4

 

Templar has 73% magic resistance, so wraiths will deal 27% damage here:

 

0.8 * 27 = 21.6

 

 

CONCLUSION AND TLDR:

 

Willpower and Magic Defense both decrease Spirit damage proportionally. You cannot deny math. 

[N7 Tigger]

My point was Jack of All Trades, Master of None. Two points there. She can do a lot of stuff, but is not the best at any of it. I did not originally specify burst or sustained DPS. Merely that she is decent at damage. No qualifiers. Adding that definition means that she needs to be pigeon-holed into a specific term to be "master of", which is again proving my point. Defender (Tank), Controller (CC), Striker (DPS), Leader (Support)... She can do a bit of all of them, but there are classes that do each of them individually better. It's the Specialist versus Generalist idea. The Templar is a Generalist.

 

Now, let's cover something here: Tanking is very useful in a lot of situations... If the people playing are not you (or have your similar stats/promotions). Please, Drasca, when you make a claim about the general usefulness of something, take your stats/gear out of the equation, as only a small portion of players have end-game stats/gear. Not everyone has 100+ Cunning/Constitution/Willpower, so it is completely fair to say many other players will take a lot more damage than you. The more damage that a player can potentially take as a non-tank increases the usefulness of a tank dramatically.

 

As an example, a fire Wraith on Perilous will take around 40% of my health with the DoT alone (give or take,depending on the kit). Each tick took maybe a millimeter off of his. His insistence that promotions mean nothing means that nothing he says is remotely relevant to me. And probably about 90% of DAMP players.

[N7 Tigger]

Mostly due to their own mistakes. Every player and kit has both movement (control of space) and cover (terrain advantage) available to them as force multipliers.

 

No, completely due to not having hundreds of promotions. You didn't use movement in your video. You didn't use terrain. You stood out in the open and auto attacked while cycling through your skills and absorbing damage from ten Perilous enemies at once without your health ever dropping below 80%. So just STFU. You are not good at this game.

[yarpenthemad21]

Nah, I was accounting for the Wrath Purge combo when I said damage was decent, since that really is about the extent of her damage. It's still damage, though, regardless. And it's decent. Not the best, just decent.
 
I do want to point out that you are largely restating what I have been telling Drasca here for the past while: The Templar can do a lot of things, just not exceptionally well. She has a bunch of different role skills, but not enough of a single type to really focus on it.
 
Now, regarding your view on skills, I can only say that I have had a very different experience than you with Bodyguard and Line in the Sand. I can say that much of that is likely because I do host about 70% of the time and because I do not insist on Barrier being present in every game I play.  I also play with things in a quite different way than you, which is why I said it's largely a difference of opinion.
 
However, you have made your point clear: You will also see the Templar without the combo as useless, just as you see the Necromancer without Walking Bomb as useless. You views are your own, and I will not debate that. I will, however, share that I have had a quite different experience from you, as I have build a pure Cryomancer out of Sidony and my pure Leader build out of Belinda, and had fun with both.

I've used your "leader" build. I was feeling like a useless player wasting spot.

As I said. You can try to get on top Mount Everest without pants and shoes. Builds, especially those which you want to share and show to other ppl, so they will try them, should be made around general concept of effectiveness. Templar wombo jombo is like an machine gun in the arsenal of medieval weapons. You can be a hipster and just ignore this big machine gun but it's not optimal choice. Builds isn't made around some RPG "acting", being "immersive" etc. Build should work. You can present specific build which will work for some situation but this requires saying what I need to make build work.
I know every class in game, tried many builds and in general I don't care what ppl are using, as soon as they don't die.
But I can have some expectation when joining lobby. Seeing keeper in lobby I could assume "barrier + static cage" and it hurts when I see some barrierless keeper with random mix of strange skills. So much wasted potential.

As for the magic_defense stat, it's obvious it works with spirit damage.

[Drasca]

Magic Defense both decrease Spirit damage proportionally.

 

I had to review other peoples videos, and realized wraiths did more to others. I was wrong, but I'm glad magic defense works vs spirit damage

[Dick Dastardly]

I had to review other peoples videos, and realized wraiths did more to others. I was wrong, but I'm glad magic defense works vs spirit damage

A victory for common sense at last!

[Puffy9999]

No- the Templar sucks balls.