141 réponses à ce sujet

[Pork]

I was right.

 

You can have this one if it makes you feel better, I really don't give a crap. We can keep plugging in arbitrary values to fit your agenda better, but you can go ahead and do that by yourself.   

[scynn]

I have a screenshot. 3,2k damage. I've added my promotions. I forget about almighty shield with +5% damage bonus.
My outstanding promotions gives me 22% more "attack". I even not using highest possible dragon sword (I've listed upgrade it's with HoK). I'm using amulet of stamina.


Damage increase from willpower promotions aren't that great as ppl think. Cunning and having crit chance high enough gives more damage increase.

 

I don't know how I can explain this to you any clearer but I'll try;

 

In the video, he crits mobs for around 2.5k with SB. He's using Caliban (lower dmg than the Dragon Sword) and 2 SCritDam rings. The mobs he's hitting for the 2.5k crits I'm talking about are isolated, so the 5% per doesn't really make a big difference here as it does in your screen shot, as I count at least 7 red dots near you, meaning much greater bonus from your shield. 

 

You can't tell me another 80 willpower wouldn't make a difference in the damage you're putting out.

[Drasca]

Again, let me make it clear that everything you are saying is your opinion. Not wrong, not right... Just opinion.

 

Not everything. Yarpen has actual backing to his statements.

 

Well this got burried pretty fast. I would be interested in some feedback for a supportive templar though.

 

I've done it before. It isn't as as useful as I'd like. The existence of virtuoso's completely negated the relative usefulness of bodyguard, since they have near infinite barrier. Horn of Valor is also less damage than previously calculated with new understanding of the damage formula.

 

 

Lets do some more maths!

 

Wrong formula. Failed model.

 

 

CDR is better in all situations

 

Not all, especially when it comes to damage from specific abilities. See longshot ring vs CDR.

 

I admitted fault when you backed your statements with actual legitimate proof. Get some video of yourself equipping said items and doing shield bashes with them, both crit and non crit. Heck screenshots from legitimate third party players with no motive is fine too.

 

However, you have none, and we have players that are clearly not me performing extra high damage.

 

 

Damage increase from willpower promotions aren't that great as ppl think. Cunning and having crit chance high enough gives more damage increase.

 

Totally this, and the 'inferiority complex' people are particularly stupid in this regard. The caveat is high critical damage bonus gear, which is now available to everyone in the form of T3 weapon crafting upgrades (instead of limited to extremely rare rings).

 

Cunning is the chase damage promotion to get due to equipment availability and understanding of the damage formula producing extremely effective results.

 

Having over 100% critical damage bonus that's multiplicative with everything on the damage formula means every 1% additional critical chance (from 2 cunning) is worth more than 1% average increase in damage, whereas willpower's +attack power is on different and limited segments of the damage formula-- often adding far less than 1% actual damage per 2 willpower. The exact relative value varies, but an additional +50% attack power does not guarantee +50% dps. In the case of long shot, it may actually be less than 10% (or even 1%).

[yarpenthemad21]

I don't know how I can explain this to you any clearer but I'll try;
 
In the video, he crits mobs for around 2.5k with SB. He's using Caliban (lower dmg than the Dragon Sword) and 2 SCritDam rings. The mobs he's hitting for the 2.5k crits I'm talking about are isolated, so the 5% per doesn't really make a big difference here as it does in your screen shot, as I count at least 7 red dots near you, meaning much greater bonus from your shield. 
 
You can't tell me another 80 willpower wouldn't make a difference in the damage you're putting out.

I will make a difference but not huge as you think. My average non crit shield bash on those venatori mooks (lowest I've seen) was around 1,6-1,9k. So my crit would be very close to this value really. Taking just average on normal mook isolated.
What makes huge difference is cunning and how much crit hits he gets (so also the value of crit damage alone).

Difference in damage can be calculated, but to get exact results we need to compare specific kits, Drasca because of high cunning uses different rings (my general setup is crit chance + crit damage). But when we happen to get the same kit and setup damage difference is around 20% (taking max damage from skill). Still his dps is way higher but mostly because of cunning.

[Drasca]

Difference in damage can be calculated, but to get exact results we need to compare specific kits, Drasca because of high cunning uses different rings (my general setup is crit chance + crit damage). But when we happen to get the same kit and setup damage difference is around 20% (taking max damage from skill). Still his dps is way higher but mostly because of cunning and gear.

 

FTFY. The video bear in mind is pre-T3 weapon upgrades, and has one HoK for safety. I run max CDB now a days, and get up to 4-5k SB's, with up to 20k+ wombo combos. Multipliers rock.

 

If willpower was so important, why would the difference be so quick and so stark? My willpower gain wasn't signifigant, but my damage was. The only prove-able explanation is gear.

[scynn]

While I would hardly call this proof or conclusive testing, I ran around in Perilous on my templar SBing random things, trying to get them away from groups. The highest on an isolated rage demon and venatori archer was 1596 and 1592. That's without a second 20% SCritDam ring, or the 9% from hilt and 51 Willpower with Caliban (Atk and HOK hilt). I then put on the 30% shield bash ring, and the highest I saw was on a dog for 1900 (a little under). That's a pretty big difference from 2.5k. I was able to get some mid 2k crits, but I was surrounded by a ton of mobs, so I'd attribute that to the Caliban.

 

I'm not sure if 30% SB ring is = to 29% Crit Dam, but I would guess it would be. Again, I'm not a Dragon Age math genius, so I could be wrong.

 

And that's not even taking into consideration how little damage he took. 1 Rage demon melee takes me to almost half health.

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

Well this got burried pretty fast. I would be interested in some feedback for a supportive templar though.

 

I have a Templar Leader build here that is designed as pure support.

 

http://forum.bioware...e-build-guides/

 

Despite many not enjoying this build because it is "not efficient" in DAIMP (which really means that it doesn't do really any crowd-control and very little damage), I personally enjoyed it immensely and would recommend people try it that aren't fixated on DPS or CC. It's more for fun factor, but it still is effective at doing what it's meant to (namely, buff allies and debuff enemies).

Just note that you have to change your thought pattern of playing: It's not a tank or melee damager, so stay off the front lines. It's not a ranged controller or damager, so running at the back limits your effect. You want to run in the middle of the group. You want to avoid being hit by enemies with Bodyguard up, and not stand there like a rock with Shield Wall up when your team is getting pounded. Let me be clear that you are not tanking, but buffing. You are not supposed to be drawing enemy attention and taking a lot of hits.

 

The idea is to keep your buffs up as much as possible to increase team DPS (damage per second) and decrease team DTPS (damage taken per second). After that is achieved, then spam basic attack on enemies to get some crits to lower your cool downs. Simple as that.

 

Again, it's not a build I'd recommend for a lot of players, as it has no damage, crowd-control, or tanking abilities. Not a lot of people enjoy playing a role like that, so be forewarned.

[Drasca]

because it is "not efficient" in DAIMP (which really means that it

 

Not efficient ultimately means not time & effort efficient. Do I get the most out of my effort? If these skills were really worth it, then it would be efficient, but if there's a far more rewarding option what is it.. Is X skill / build / worth my time?

 

If you have unlimited time and effort, good on you. Those of us that don't, or want to make the most of our time, the most gain for our effort, look for efficiency.

 

Your build isn't popular because the game doesn't reward you for your efforts with that build. It rewards Wrath / Purge combos. It punishes being 'in the middle' of a group, because the group is quite often spread out beyond your Horn of Valor / Blessed Blades range. You aren't building guard with the shield wall / bodyguard combination, and bodyguard is obsoleted by virtuoso barrier.  You don't get exp for casting BB or HoV (which does suck), so every ability that you bring that doesn't bring exp costs the team exp.

 

If you can convince the devs to patch this system and actually reward for said support, fantastic, but the game as it is does not support that-- and it needs to be recognized.

 

If you don't care at all about being rewarded for your efforts, play as you like, but for the rest of us that do at all, you need to be concerned for efficiency. The people that do care about efficiency ask: What is my reward?

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

Your build isn't popular because the game doesn't reward you for your efforts with that build. 

 

And you lost it there... It actually is fairly popular, just not to you and yarp. It was actually a build requested several times by various people, and the build itself was born from a conversation with some PuGs about having useful support class with which veteran players could help out their newbie friends without just carrying them.

 

Honestly, the only build that got people more interested in my builds was my Legionnaire Defender... Which is another build that you see as largely useless. As I keep telling you and yarp, your personal preferences on play style are not representative of the community as a whole, and neither are mine.

 

Let me get something clear: The efficiency you mention is all about clearing matches with as little friction as possible and gaining the most XP. While there is a solid demographic that are greatly interested in this, I need to remind you that is just another viewpoint. Entertainment is a qualitative value. The view that you are illustrating is like saying that you must watch a movie with perfect lighting or that music must only be heard in a room with perfect acoustics. Sure, those are certainly ways to best experience that entertainment medium, but stating that it's the only way to do so is completely absurd and plainly ignorant.

[Dick Dastardly]

^Not evertone is looking for min/max builds, some of us enjoy experimenting with different builds. Most fun doesnt neccessarily = most efficient

[Courtnehh]

And you lost it there... It actually is fairly popular, just not to you and yarp. It was actually a build requested several times by various people, and the build itself was born from a conversation with some PuGs about having useful support class with which veteran players could help out their newbie friends without just carrying them.

 

Honestly, the only build that got people more interested in my builds was my Legionnaire Defender... Which is another build that you see as largely useless. As I keep telling you and yarp, your personal preferences on play style are not representative of the community as a whole, and neither are mine.

 

Let me get something clear: The efficiency you mention is all about clearing matches with as little friction as possible and gaining the most XP. While there is a solid demographic that are greatly interested in this, I need to remind you that is just another viewpoint. Entertainment is a qualitative value. The view that you are illustrating is like saying that you must watch a movie with perfect lighting or that music must only be heard in a room with perfect acoustics. Sure, those are certainly ways to best experience that entertainment medium, but stating that it's the only way to do so is completely absurd and plainly ignorant.

 

^Not evertone is looking for min/max builds, some of us enjoy experimenting with different builds. Most fun doesnt neccessarily = most efficient

Blasphemy! Who plays DAIMP to have fun?!

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

Blasphemy! Who plays DAIMP to have fun?!

 

I know, right?!

 

Shut down DAIMP servers immediately! Someone mentioned the "fun" word!

[yarpenthemad21]

Let me get something clear: The efficiency you mention is all about clearing matches with as little friction as possible and gaining the most XP. While there is a solid demographic that are greatly interested in this, I need to remind you that is just another viewpoint. Entertainment is a qualitative value. The view that you are illustrating is like saying that you must watch a movie with perfect lighting or that music must only be heard in a room with perfect acoustics. Sure, those are certainly ways to best experience that entertainment medium, but stating that it's the only way to do so is completely absurd and plainly ignorant.

I would say that fun is like freedom. And freedom of one person ends where freedom of other person starts.

I'm used to do wacky things in games, I've played mmo games a lot and in group of friends we just constantly throw "effectiveness" out of the window (as sometimes focus) just to have some laugh, wipe sometimes because of stupid behavior, etc.
But this is good in "private" form of content, where I play with ppl who also has the same goal, nobody would be angry because of fail/etc.
But
I don't do the this type of things in public content. When I play with PuGs I want to deal with content, not to have fun with random ppl which I don't know, don't care and sometimes even can't communicate at all. I've joined lobby/party/raid to get content done, to get reward and forget about it. I will try to be as effective and as focused as possible. This is what I give to this random group of ppl, my effort. Ppl doing stupid things, ppl going afk, ppl which need carry and in general ppl which for some selfish reason waste my time, waste my effort would ****** me off. I can carry my friend who will be afk for hours but I won't do it for some random pug. Public, PuG game isn't the same and can't be made around some subjective definition of fun as you can do in private match.

This doesn't mean that I will just kick everyone without optimal build/class/gear etc. It should just mean that ppl should think less about themselves and more that they play with other ppl. ME3MP had the same problem. Selfish ppl running some "fun" (mostly melee focused) kit running around like headless chicken. Few of them have enough skill and experience to play it good, most of them just spend whole match on the floor. Maybe this guy/girl had much fun headbutting units in 1 wave but now I have 3 players instead of 4. Why his/her fun should affect in negative way my fun? Just for the god sake, don't be selfish.

[Laforgus]

I haven't really touched him, but heard this and that.

 

Thank you for any advice.

 

btw, since she is one of only 2 sword characters,

chances are good we will get another sword wielder with next DLC, don't you think?

 

Sorry i'm late! (since i only read OP's post will just give my option on it)

 

Well yess she is good, specially since her combo work well with common soldiers, and once you get Mage Hunter passive, you can kick the ass of those Red Templars's deformations, and Venatoris's magic Caster.

 

For next DLC is kind of hard, because there are plenty of warrior already, and 1h warrior would required a shield which would be useless to have 3 tanky  characters, unless they do a Dual (1h) wield warrior like Lineage 2's Gladiators/Duelist. With original Skill and fact pace combo attacks.

 

*puts on jet pack and leaves thread*

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

Public, PuG game isn't the same and can't be made around some subjective definition of fun as you can do in private match.

 

Actually, yes it can... And it is 100% of the time. No joke. The entire game, and all other games, are a form of entertainment and therefore subjective in the enjoyment of the consumer.

 

I don't think you get it: I am telling you that you and Drasca both have a valid viewpoint, but you both need to check your egos and stop thinking it's somehow universal law. It's not. Efficiency is not king, this is not some grand arena, and you are not the plucky hero.

And then you have this misconception that somehow using a Templar build like my Leader is somehow "selfish" in a PuG match... Really? It's like the most unselfish build possible! I primarily use it in PuG matches, and have had tons of players thanking me for making the experience more enjoyable for them, yet I am being selfish for not using the Wrath Purge combo? Are you daft?

 

Furthermore, in joining a PuG match (which is a the primary lobby for most of us), it's to be expected that the majority of players are going to throw efficiency out the window and pick what skills "sound cool" at the time. This is not a big secret, either.

 

Just enjoy the bloody game. Share you meta-builds and efficiency strategy if you want, but stop stressing over how other players enjoy their entertainment. Both you and everyone else will be happier for it.

[yarpenthemad21]

Actually, yes it can... And it is 100% of the time. No joke. The entire game, and all other games, are a form of entertainment and therefore subjective in the enjoyment of the consumer.
 
I don't think you get it: I am telling you that you and Drasca both have a valid viewpoint, but you both need to check your egos and stop thinking it's somehow universal law. It's not. Efficiency is not king, this is not some grand arena, and you are not the plucky hero.

Tell those players trying to dragon hunt. This majority of players without hundreds of spare gold and resources. Tell them how they feel when they go for dragon hunt, they use dragon call and right after that they got a wipe. Because nobody cares about efficiency in every level possible, starting at build, ending on tactic.
I think that those ppl deserve some basic level of efficiency from other co-op players. Some basic, basic enough to deal somehow with content.

And then you have this misconception that somehow using a Templar build like my Leader is somehow "selfish" in a PuG match... Really? It's like the most unselfish build possible! I primarily use it in PuG matches, and have had tons of players thanking me for making the experience more enjoyable for them, yet I am being selfish for not using the Wrath Purge combo? Are you daft?

You get carried. Just it. All this so called support is virtual. Blessed blades works only against demons, horn of valor damage increase aren't that great and spell purge does pretty much nothing against red templars (one unit with barrier...)
You main and only source of damage is autoattack. Maybe your presence in party gives ppl some magic aura "I'm being supported", but for me this type of templar is party is a leecher. I need to deal damage, CC for him. I won't kick you, because I will kick only afk ppl but I won't play with you another PuG. You made this match longer and forced me put more effort. In general I have fun when I deal with content in fast and flashy way, not when I struggle with everything on way and need to run from one dead party member to another. I'm not a bdsm fun who loved to get tortured.

Furthermore, in joining a PuG match (which is a the primary lobby for most of us), it's to be expected that the majority of players are going to throw efficiency out the window and pick what skills "sound cool" at the time. This is not a big secret, either.
 
Just enjoy the bloody game. Share you meta-builds and efficiency strategy if you want, but stop stressing over how other players enjoy their entertainment. Both you and everyone else will be happier for it.

It still breaks in way that ppl are selfish. When I test skills, new weapon, whatever which I don't know how it work I play either alone or on threatening at most. After seeing how it works and play and testing it for some time I can go and play real match.

You can do whatever you want with your friends. But public lobby is like public transport. General goal is to get from point A to point B, so finish the match, get rewards. Nobody added to it "and be wacky...". I don't care about your private goals, that you go to girlfriend or go back form school. You are in public you should stay civil. Dancing around the buss like madman, being naked, being not much clean or just being noisy isn't best way to use public transport and you can't call it "having fun" even if this only person have some fun. His/her fun ruins fun of everyone else.
It's not only efficiency. It's just lack of effort at all.
You don't need to be even close to min/max to finish content in DAIMP. Just put some effort for the god sake. Don't be selfish.

[Texasmotiv]

-------OT RANT-------

 

Most people gravitate to the forums for advice on increasing their effectiveness at this game. That usually means being more effective in a given role or dealing more damage, or clearing matches faster. Some people do not wish to farm things as efficiently as possible, however, and take the game for what it is: a game. I think what we have here is to diametrically opposed ideals of gameplay philosophy. I'm not sure there is a solution that will please both sides other than to try to see that you are both giving the correct advice that caters to your end goal. But both sides are shooting for different goals entirely.

 

If you want to play a different build that you might find fun, Mortiel has that for you.

 

If you want to play an efficient build that will help you farm gear/promotions/challenges faster then adapt one of Drasca's builds he has provided here.

 

But arguing that one is better than the other in every situation for every player is futile. As with all things engineering, you start with the goal and you design the solution to meet your goals. There is no one size fits all.

 

-------End RANT------

 

That said, I don't feel the Wombo combo is useless outside of demons. you can still tear through entire spawns by yourself and if you include in Shield bash for the dragon you can be helpful there too.

 

Also, I didn't like bodyguard when I tried it. It felt like whenever I switched it on, I was martyring myself for no good reason. I don't have the time to block my own enemies and everyone else's enemies and even if I did, I wouldn't have the stamina. YMMV but I could only see it useful in routine/threatening to help carry a friend or something.

[Proto]

Texas, you the man.

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

Tell those players trying to dragon hunt. This majority of players without hundreds of spare gold and resources. Tell them how they feel when they go for dragon hunt, they use dragon call and right after that they got a wipe. Because nobody cares about efficiency in every level possible, starting at build, ending on tactic.

Seriously, I don't think you get it, mate. Listen very carefully: All entertainment is qualitative. It's subjective. You seem stuck on this. Your view on playing to efficiency is, again, just one way of many to enjoy this game. Yes, even in a multiplayer public match. It's not selfish, it's called coexistence. Not everyone shares your view, and you should really accept that.

But arguing that one is better than the other in every situation for every player is futile. As with all things engineering, you start with the goal and you design the solution to meet your goals. There is no one size fits all.

I don't just play for fun. I play for efficiency sometimes too. My argument here is yours. There are different views, and at least two people here can't seem to accept that they can be equally correct in their view as someone else when the viewpoint is subjective.

[nibyl]

You can do whatever you want with your friends. But public lobby is like public transport. General goal is to get from point A to point B, so finish the match, get rewards. Nobody added to it "and be wacky...". I don't care about your private goals, that you go to girlfriend or go back form school. You are in public you should stay civil. Dancing around the buss like madman, being naked, being not much clean or just being noisy isn't best way to use public transport and you can't call it "having fun" even if this only person have some fun. His/her fun ruins fun of everyone else.
It's not only efficiency. It's just lack of effort at all.
You don't need to be even close to min/max to finish content in DAIMP. Just put some effort for the god sake. Don't be selfish.

What. Seriously, that made no sense. You're comparing using an "inefficient" build in DAMP to dancing around a bus naked?

 

I don't care about anyone's private goals when pugging either, that's why I do what I want. I'm totally going to expose all my pos builds to the region-locked ps3 playerbase. Last time playing templar I used shield, combat roll, unbowed, shield bash and it was great. But I'm sure some people I played with thought "omg why isn't this guy using combo what a scrub"

[Drasca]

Seriously, I don't think you get it, mate. Listen very carefully: All entertainment is qualitative. It's subjective. You seem stuck on this

 

Hogwash, it isn't all subjective.

 

Losing due to someone's terrible inefficient build is definitely not subjective or qualitative. You've been pampered by private games too long. Yarpen's right about the public games idea: Point A to Point B. There's a lowest common denominator, and that's to win the match. Having a selfish terrible build means we have to carry and the experience is quantitatively worse. Time, experience and gold is worse on all fronts. No sane player enjoys losing a pug match. Even threatening is difficult for some people.

 

You really want to tell me when asking 100 pugs if they're ok with losing, they'd say yes every time? No. Most people want to win.

 

 

Last time playing templar I used shield, combat roll, unbowed, shield bash and it was great.

 

You play on threatening don't you? I love SW and SB and CR of course, just not that particular combination of abiltiies. UB still sucks, especially made redundant with CR around, and on Perilous.

 

You can get away with hipster builds on threatening, but you'd have to be carried on perilous, as even I would have more difficulty carrying with that build on Perilous.

 

 

I'm totally going to expose all my pos builds to the region-locked ps3 playerbase.

 

You should make your own thread for your own builds here too.

[abc1921034518]

Just enjoy the bloody game. Share you meta-builds and efficiency strategy if you want, but stop stressing over how other players enjoy their entertainment. Both you and everyone else will be happier for it.

 

Then you should obviously state in all your "build guides" that these are made for your perceived enjoyment only and that your perceived enjoyment includes wiping a lot.

 

(...Because builds like your templar build are terrible, and you are just asking to being carried by the other 3 members.)

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

Then you should obviously state in all your "build guides" that these are made for your perceived enjoyment only and that your perceived enjoyment includes wiping a lot.

 

(...Because builds like your templar build are terrible, and you are just asking to being carried by the other 3 members.)

 

If you had seen any of them, you'd know that I disclaim every build I do as not the "best build", regardless of it's perceived efficiency. Instead, you seem to prefer jumping on the bandwagon full of conjecture. Good job on just making yourself look like a chump.

 

Again, like yarp and Drasca, you are welcome your opinion and viewpoint on how the game should be played. You will not see me telling you that you have to play my way. It's rude. So step down and enjoy the bloody game!

[abc1921034518]

If you had seen any of them

 

Not for a while... because the ones I've seen were terrible

 I disclaim every build I do as not the "best build"

 

That's very deceptive to new players and sugar coating it by a lot, especially that templar build. You should be calling it for what it really is: a terribly inefficient build that you perceive to be "fun".

 

[scynn]

I'm on PS4 so I can't click your link to see the video and don't feel like typing out the URL...What Active Abilities are in this build? I'm curious now because of so much hate...