135 réponses à ce sujet

[Rhaenyss]

Good last two posts, I agree with all of it. I like how Shepard can be whatever you make them to be & they mean something else to different people. My paragon Shepard had Liara as LI because I felt she needed someone like Liara, whereas with Kaidan it felt a little off. In my second playthrough as renegade/renegon, Kaidan was a perfect option. I don't think I can explain why, though. Probably because Kaidan grounds my renegade, and Liara calms my paragon.

 

As for broshep, I think I don't like him because of the space marine syndrome (and not because he's a bad character), it's just too cliche for me. I don't feel the stakes, because movies are filled with badass dudes out to save the world, there's nothing that stands him apart, I guess. I'd probably feel different if I were a dude myself.

[Batarian Master Race]

I've seen that brought up before, and I find it interesting that people want to date others not for who they are, but what they represent. 

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Vanilka]

I am not sure I understand. Are not personality traits an important part of who we are? Is it a response to something in particular? I don't think I get the drift.

[Batarian Master Race]

Personality traits are fine. But when people say that Shepard is boring because he's a Generic Space Marine, that's less of who he is as a person and more of what he represents.

[Rhaenyss]

I said that I don't necessarily believe he's boring or bad as a character, but he makes a boring choice for me personally.

 

Also, I find Hale's performance much more suited for my enjoyment of the character, so I never really tried to get into broshep more seriously to see him more in depth (excluding several youtube videos that I've watched).

 

I think it's a testament to Meer and Hale's performance that they managed to create two different people, even though they basically say the same lines.

[Vanilka]

We're still talking about computer game characters. I think that the fact that certain type of male character is getting recycled again and again is pretty valid criticism nowadays. When one type of character has been done many times over, its lookalike may very easily appear boring showing up in yet another game. That's why I also went out of my way to say I reserve full judgement for later because my feelings might change and my current impressions might easily be wrong. I was not judging him as a person at all at first, just as a computer game character. (Same with femShep, who, however, is a type of female character we simply do not get anywhere nearly as often in games.) I also mentioned it is complicated to see a character you're supposed to identify with as attractive to me. I've made several male characters in different games where I had the option to make them who I wanted them to be and I would still "date" none of them because that's simply not how it works for me. I don't play these games to create virtual wives and husbands for myself.

 

Also, if you read further (Yeah, I know it's stupidly long. Not very good at being brief. Sorry.), you can easily see I did try to analyse the reasons why companions would be attracted to Shepard as a person regardless of whether they're a man or a woman. (Notice my use of "they" most of the time instead of "he/she".) I'm talking about two different things here. Shepard as a computer game character and Shepard as a person are two different things, I think. But that's just my opinion anyway.

 

Anyway, that's just in case you were referring to my post also.

 

PS: Thanks for elaborating. You've got a point.

[prinsesbubblegum]

What is wrong with you people? 

[aoibhealfae]

Well, BroShep is perfectly all right for a video game archetype. This discussion isn't about waifu/husbando but an analysis on the character themselves particularly since in the game, Shepard would simply waltz in a room and everyone would notice Shepard as the most desirable creature in this galaxy.

Regardless of everyone feeling about the romance content and even if Shepard is a virgin in the trilogy, people in the game especially LIs are all sexually attracted to Shepard.... and to a lot of people, this really applies very specifically to BroShep:

 

the question is... does he deserve all that attention?

 

The game creators dedicated most of the romance resources for him... and yet this is the part where I find his characterization failed. Its pretty obvious that that the LIs were created with the intention to compensate this... vacuousness.

 

But even so Mark Meer really shines during his romance scenes and I could tell he enjoy playing them.

[Vanilka]

Well, the name of the topic is "Would you date Shepard in real life? What makes Shepard attractive as a person?" so the waifu/husbando part kind of comes to mind then when analysing the character, I guess. If that was not the point, then I apologise for bringing it up.

 

Frankly, I'd say: Yeah, of course they're attracted to him because that's how the writers catered to the player, having the male player specifically in mind. Then it doesn't matter whether the character has the personality of a cardboard cutout or not. And, honestly, no, I don't think any character should be universally considered appealing. If that happens, especially if it happens a lot, it's cheap. Simple as that. Especially if it's not backed up by appropriate reasons. At least sometimes they should work for it. At least sometimes they should run into an unbreakable wall. Otherwise it pushes what one can believe. Not even popular models, singers, actors, etc. are universally loved by everyone.

 

However, we can't forget that Shepard is sort of a blank slate character that is under our control. I don't think Shepard was ever meant to be a fully fleshed out character in the first place, which makes him difficult to judge in this aspect. I mean, it's a character we're supposed to roleplay. He has some basic personality traits among which we can choose and some we cannot choose. The rest, we're supposed to decide what he's like. So some vacuousness has to be expected. It gives the player space. It's a double-edged sword if one happens not to like that kind of thing.

 

I think it's also a big difference whether we talk physical attractiveness, as you mention earlier, or personality's appeal, as you mention later. They don't have to be one and the same thing. And if it comes to personality, I think my earlier post still stands. He can be bland but still be a sweet person that wants to make the galaxy a better place. Or not. That's up to the player to decide. But yeah, one type of personality definitely should not appeal to everyone.

 

You know, though, it's sort of interesting that femShep can be refused a few times throughout the game - by Joker, by James, don't let me start about Jacob. Are there any cases like that in case of manShep? (I'm honestly asking, I don't know.) And I think that's a good thing. Although I do not like that it's only the love interests for femShep that ever get unavoidably lost.

[Rhaenyss]

Welll, I'd rather have that for Femshep, than "lemme fix you/your problems" LI-s for Broshep. But I understand that it's a common fantasy I guess, saving damsels etc. Actually, I think the best LI for Broshep is Kaidan, he doesn't as easily fit into the mold as the LI-s in ME2 did ( innocent / vamp / rebel ). I'm oversimplifying of course, and the romances are lovely, they're just not my cup of tea.

 

As for Femshep, Jacob thing was horrible, such a lazy thing to do (not that his romance was incredibly deep anyway, I always thought he was there to be eye candy basically). Joker -- I thought it was funny and cute, I never thought Femshep really meant it, she was just teasing. And James -- that was refreshing, because as soon as I met him, I thought he was going to be Jacob nr.2 and that I'll have to avoid him at all times. He turned out to be such a sweet (and funny) character instead, which I liked.

[Ryzaki]

Uh sure but my paragon.

 

Not a snowball's chance in hell with my renegade.

[Batarian Master Race]

You know, though, it's sort of interesting that femShep can be refused a few times throughout the game - by Joker, by James, don't let me start about Jacob. Are there any cases like that in case of manShep? (I'm honestly asking, I don't know.) And I think that's a good thing. Although I do not like that it's only the love interests for femShep that ever get unavoidably lost.

Samara comes to mind. Haven't tried romancing many people as Mshep, but she was the one person I remember didn't seem bangable.

 

Welll, I'd rather have that for Femshep, than "lemme fix you/your problems" LI-s for Broshep. 

Thane was a lemme-fix-ya romance, was he not? And if you consider Tali, Miranda, and Jack to qualify as fixer-uppers, so would Garrus and Jacob. All of their loyalty missions involve helping them through profound emotional trauma.

 

You get a like for approving of Vega, however. Never understood the hate for him.

[Vanilka]

Welll, I'd rather have that for Femshep, than "lemme fix you/your problems" LI-s for Broshep. But I understand that it's a common fantasy I guess, saving damsels etc. Actually, I think the best LI for Broshep is Kaidan, he doesn't as easily fit into the mold as the LI-s in ME2 did ( innocent / vamp / rebel ). I'm oversimplifying of course, and the romances are lovely, they're just not my cup of tea.
 
As for Femshep, Jacob thing was horrible, such a lazy thing to do (not that his romance was incredibly deep anyway, I always thought he was there to be eye candy basically). Joker -- I thought it was funny and cute, I never thought Femshep really meant it, she was just teasing. And James -- that was refreshing, because as soon as I met him, I thought he was going to be Jacob nr.2 and that I'll have to avoid him at all times. He turned out to be such a sweet (and funny) character instead, which I liked.

 
Personally, I like how femShep was handled, too. Mostly, anyway. No overt flirting most of the time. It didn't seem like the whole galaxy set out to get in her pants. Some characters did express interest, which is welcome, but there's generally more diversity. Some characters hit on her, but most don't. That's definitely great, imho.
 
However, I feel like there were weird things going on in ME2. Like I couldn't avoid Shepard giving Jacob that creepy smile when talking to him. (Never considered romancing him myself so it's kinda uncomfortable.) Once I accidentally flirted with him and felt like I needed a shower afterwards. What is it with ME2 Shepard being creepy as hell? A friend showed me a video of his Shakarian and more often than not, femShep just stands there with a creepy smile and says nothing. Do other people see it, too? Is it just me?
 
I also think that all the LIs in ME2 suffer from the "lemme fix your problems" syndrome. Hell, ME2 is all about kissing your crew's booboos. I feel like perhaps just Ashley, Kaidan, Traynor escape this kind of thing in the whole franchise. (Though you can somewhat kiss Kaidan's booboo in ME1, as well.) It is true that there's still somewhat a greater number of female LIs that end up in this position and they generally come across as more vulnerable. I see where you're coming from.
 
To be honest, James freaked me out at first. I rarely play flirty characters and I had mixed feelings about his attitude until I realised he's just messing around. I like him a lot now, he's my Shep's little bro, and I think it's kind of cool he's not actually romanceable and out to get you.

 

Samara comes to mind. Haven't tried romancing many people as Mshep, but she was the one person I remember didn't seem bangable.

 

Yeah, I don't think she is. She refuses both femShep and manShep the first time. She does give in to Shepard's charms eventually, as far as I know. But I don't think they end up in bed. There seems to be little romance content for her. Another thing is whether one really wants to keep pushing after she says no.

[Rhaenyss]

I guess with Miranda and Jack I meant that they start out as vamp or punk b*itches that don't really like you, but then you win them over with the power of your love. And Tali is for those who like innocent & cute. Don't get me wrong, I've stated several times it's just my opinion & I guess it's due to me having a female perspective, but these tropes are not my thing. (Actually, Miranda would've been a great romance, if only the buttshots weren't so distracting, it cheapens the moment imo. Also that Shadow Broker intel was just not needed, why make her into a bigger cliche than necessary?). 

 

Thane is interesting, because it looks like he, on the other hand, was geared specifically for female audience. It's a bit transparent, but ok, I actually liked this one. Some of the interactions were a bit cheesy (and I've only entered into this romance was because Garrus was busy doing calibrations all the time, the as*s), but it surprised me with its satisfying emotional conclusion (citadel dlc). Garrus was a good "equal grounds / buddy" type of thing, which I thought was kind of refreshing. With Jacob, Shepard is just creepy, I did not like that at all. Was that supposed to be sexy?

 

TL;DR I guess I only really liked Kaidan and Liara for both sexes, I think they were developed the most naturally of them all. I feel like I can easily see mutual attraction without having to fill in the blanks. Oh, and also Traynor, that romance is so fun and sweet, it really surprised me (especially the line "My shower is for winners." line, it gives my Femshep a silly, deadpan humorous streak that I've always suspected she had).

[Vanilka]

Yeah, no worries. Well, at least with me. I understand your perspective. I take a lot of issues with these things, as well. I do think ME does much better than many other games in this area but there are still things that need to be handled better. Like the buttshots you mentioned. And boobshots. And stuff. That was absolutely uncalled for and it's not a good device to make a character sexy. Sexy is usually not about the angle we are looking from. I just couldn't take the conversation seriously staring at her butt while my Shepard was actually looking in her face. One of the reasons Kaidan's buttshot in ME3 worked so well was because it was only for people who chose to romance him which means they were mentally prepared to eventually see him naked, lol, and it was very much in context with what was happening. It was more funny and cute than anything. I'd like to see Miranda handled this way. It would completely remove the problem with people who didn't care one bit about seeing her butt. I thought Samara was surprisingly well handled in this aspect, although she did have her weird camera angles at times and questionable outfit. With Samara, it's mostly about how elegant and graceful she is when she moves and speaks. They mostly had the right idea with her.

 

Personally, I think ME2 was sort of strange when it came to the romances because it kind of has this "SEX, LOL!" approach, it seems. I believe it might be one of the reasons this discussion topic exists at all. It's perhaps no coincidence that Shepard's famous rapeface comes from there too, lol. ME1 and ME3 felt generally more mature and tasteful in a lot of ways, despite the silly undies in the shower and during bed scenes in 3.

 

And yeah, the characters often tend to bend to Shepard's will a little too much. Just like I mentioned with Samara. As much as I'm interested in her, I felt like her refusing Shepard was very appropriate for her and it's strange she changes her mind later, despite being very certain about not wanting to before. But that's just me anyway. Same thing happens with Jack, I guess. I understand some characters gradually warm up to Shepard and I understand it helps some characters develop. But fixing characters with the power of love/sex shouldn't be a rule. Neither should be getting these as some sort of a reward simply for helping a companion.

 

PS: Shepard+Alenko dynamic is a definite win in my book. I'm rather happy about how the whole thing is handled. Anxious to try Liara sometimes.

[Batarian Master Race]

Tali is for those who like innocent & cute. 

 

I don't know where the portrayal of Tali as cute and innocent comes from; she's no battle-hardened merc, true, but she's got a dry wit and enough combat training to hold her own in Shep's team. She's headstrong enough to take the lead throughout her entire romance, knowing exactly what she wants and needs up to and during the final scene. Hell, she even (in a way) asks Shepard out, rather than the more traditional vice versa.

 

Her focus on sex appears at first glance crude, but the more you look at it, the more it's tied to her character. Tali's selfless to a fault; she needs multiple insistences from Shepard that it's okay to want something for herself. When she does get that permission... She's lived without physical contact her entire existence. Now she's given that chance, and with the person she's admired and adored for over two years, the person who saw past the mask to who she really is. It's only natural that she'd want to close the gap between the two completely. In that way, I think the focus on sex makes sense.

 

PS: Shepard+Alenko dynamic is a definite win in my book. I'm rather happy about how the whole thing is handled. Anxious to try Liara sometimes.

 

And YOU get a like for approving of Alenko. Never got the hate for him either.

[aoibhealfae]

Basically... this

Spoiler

 

But I don't really mind romancing anyone in the game while playing a male avatar. Its just.... Male Shepard simply lacks.. something. I've romanced Isabella and Merrill with my BroHawke.. romanced Morrigan with my BroWarden. I'm quite okay with default romance Cloud/Tifa, Squall/Rinoa, Zidane/Garnet and Tidus/Yuna... but BroShep....

[Rhaenyss]

There's only one thing missing in that slide -- an image of Kaidan saying how he wasn't a LI option until ME3 because he couldn't get close from all the women

[Vanilka]

I still can't believe Kelly actually dances for you in that outfit. Let me say I consider myself a very open-minded and in many ways liberal person, but... that... in this game... yeah... lol.

 

Not just that, she's pretty much a disposable love interest that most of the fanbase seem to make fun of. Actually... it's pretty sad.

 

 

Anyway, I guess the player's tastes also play a large role in this. I mean, in what you can believe. I admit that if I had to choose between manHawke and manShep, I'd rather go for the bland manShep. I would not touch Hawke and don't know why the companions would want to. I can barely stomach playing Hawke. But that's just me. Still, it does not justify Shepard's flocks of chicks. There's no excuse.

 

Maybe all the enhancements he's got include some pheromone... uh... atomiser.

[prosthetic soul]

I would date the everloving crap out of FemShep.  Default FemShep. 

 

Red heads....mmm, red heads. 

[Dantriges]

I still can't believe Kelly actually dances for you in that outfit. Let me say I consider myself a very open-minded and in many ways liberal person, but... that... in this game... yeah... lol.

 

Not just that, she's pretty much a disposable love interest that most of the fanbase seem to make fun of. Actually... it's pretty sad.

 

 

I just watched a video of the dance and eh ok, I agree completely. Oh my...

[Vanilka]

@Dantriges

 

I know, right? It's not that there's anything wrong with dancing for your partner, but having a character do this in a BioWare game out of the blue like this... it's... uh... as I said, "SEX, LOL!" approach of the second game. If I romanced her, I'd probably feel very awkward. She deserved better than this. Especially after being traumatised from the Collector kidnapping and almost having been turned into juice.

[SwobyJ]

Internally, I call ME2 (and DA2 for the matter) romance, "romance" (with quotes).

 

At least ME1 and DAO were more blatantly either flings or 'real' romance. And ME3 and DAI tries to be a relationship. But ME2? Hahaha power sexual fantasies ahoy!

[Dantriges]

@Dantriges

 

I know, right? It's not that there's anything wrong with dancing for your partner, but having a character do this in a BioWare game out of the blue like this... it's... uh... as I said, "SEX, LOL!" approach of the second game. If I romanced her, I'd probably feel very awkward. She deserved better than this. Especially after being traumatised from the Collector kidnapping and almost having been turned into juice.

 

Yeah, if it has been some time ok and your partner wants to do you a favor or does it to "spice"(right word?) up your relationship ok but that´s really weird. BTW why does she have an outfit like that? Did Kelly work as a stripper to finance her college/university?

 

Seems a bit cliché. Female confident in her sexuality and open to experimentation= worked in the sex biz.

[Batarian Master Race]

Internally, I call ME2 (and DA2 for the matter) romance, "romance" (with quotes).

 

At least ME1 and DAO were more blatantly either flings or 'real' romance. And ME3 and DAI tries to be a relationship. But ME2? Hahaha power sexual fantasies ahoy!

 

Jack's romance isn't that well implemented, but it's definitely a romance in the sense of building a relationship. Tali's is as well, though it's bookended by sex, both discussions and the actual act. Garrus's shows how romance can evolve from sex. Thane's is... really not about sex.

 

Jacob and Miranda, maybe.