135 réponses à ce sujet

[Cknarf]

Lol my Shep is f*** ugly.  I'd probably have a shot.

[SwobyJ]

Jack's romance isn't that well implemented, but it's definitely a romance in the sense of building a relationship. Tali's is as well, though it's bookended by sex, both discussions and the actual act. Garrus's shows how romance can evolve from sex. Thane's is... really not about sex.

 

Jacob and Miranda, maybe.

 

I know they are romances. I don't outright deny this.

 

But to me, the tone trends towards a more superficial exploration of romance. More of an attempt than ME1's 'okay we're about to maybe die so lets acknowledge attraction to each other', but less than ME3's 'we have a history and dreams and wants and fears about each other, and want to realize it before this war is over, one way or another'.

 

Again, yes, it is romance, but it can also so much easily be summed up more like Steve and Samantha's can in ME3 (sans Citadel DLC) - a start of something, shown in a pretty cheezy way, especially played in retrospect.

 

Jacob and Miranda should go without saying.

Garrus and Tali have great stuff (honestly the only romance I'm avoiding is Jacob's except for a joke Shepard), but they're still caught up on it being centered around 'oooo alien' with Garrus, and 'oh she wants it sooo bad but her suit!!' with Tali. You could argue so many counterpoints to this, successfully, but its still how the 'romance' part of the story is emphasized with them. Seriously, Tali is ridiculously desperate once you show her any attention. Are there good reasons for this? Yes. Is this still reflective of a romance-power-fantasy? I think so.

Jack's is the 'repairing the damaged girl' fantasy full-on. Again, is this necessarily bad? No. But it is hard to understand the ME2 experience as much of a romance. That's the difficulty of only having a cinematic budget for a few scenes together. Thank god for ME3+Citadel DLC (especially the latter).

Thane's is probably the least example of what I'm talking about, but that's probably because he was intentionally designed as the 'romance focused romance for female players', save for his charming(?) looks and demeanor. Still kind of an abrupt fling, but getting into things with him required much more of a feeling of dedication to listening to him and knowing his story (as opposed to say Miranda, where the player could more easily go 'uh huh, being perfect, your sister, oh look an ass, *picks option to grab it*'.

 

And I'm not denying there isn't depth. But I credit Bioware's writers for including depth in what would have still, otherwise, for other companies, been just blatant shallowness. And that latter element still exists, in Bioware games, in Mass Effect. Its what brings things like EDI cameltoe, Legion wanting to be a Real Boy, big exploding Terminator robots, Military Good - Politics Bad, etc. The full story and its points can go WELL beyond these things, but I can't deny that these things exist nonetheless.

 

But I'm not desiring a 100% serious game series anyway, so whatever. 

 

I just think ME2 is the most outright filled with cliches from all over (not to say ME1 and ME3 don't have them), and often not in good ways, in terms of what constitutes 'romance'. Is it still enjoyable? I think so. Is it more reflective of the 'badassitude' nature of ME2? Sure! But in almost all cases, almost all the time, I don't get the impression of what I'd consider a 'developing romance', when looking at ME2 contained in itself. As with every Mass/BW game, things are made to be contained into whatever themes the game is focusing on, and ME2 is made to be by itself as a 'fling that could potentially be something more, but doesn't need to be'. In fact:

 

ME1 - Fling that doesn't necessarily need to be a deeper romance

ME2 - Fling that could potentially be a deeper romance

ME3 - Romance that could potentially be a deeper relationship

 

That's how I take it. That Bioware decided to acknowledge their romance plots with ME1 and DAO, but not much more, most of the time. Then they expanded their options for romance in ME2 and DA2 but didn't quite make them 'mature' plots (IMO). Then they decided to focus on developing the romances as more like romances in ME3 and DAI - whether we enjoyed the results of that or not. I'm not calling the ME2 romances as entirely NOT about building a relationship, but I'm saying that they seem created to EITHER fill the writing role of being a fling, OR the start of a relationship, and its up to the player to decide how much attention they want to put on either 'side'. That there's a real shallowness to how ME3 treats romantic relationships, unless I guess you ignore that shallowness and focus on the depth that is also included (obviously Jack is NOT JUST 'damaged girl', Miranda is NOT JUST 'dat ass', Garrus is NOT JUST 'freaky alien relationship', Tali is NOT JUST 'horny alien girl', etc)

 

 

EDIT: There's a difference between abruptly grabbing Miranda by behind on the Normandy that first time, taking her by surprise and being a bit off-putting with your sexual forwardness, but being lucky that she's into this sort of thing (ME2) ---- and reaching around her from behind, speaking soft things about both of you enjoying yourself out on the town together, openly wondering about what sort of life each could have together if all else goes well enough (ME3). The former is more sexual, but has a romantic element. The latter is more romantic, but has a sexual element. IMO. This is just one example.

[Batarian Master Race]

less than ME3's 'we have a history and dreams and wants and fears about each other, and want to realize it before this war is over, one way or another'.

 

That history was only made possible by the introductions during ME2, and to a lesser extent ME1. To have Shepard miraculously fall in love with someone they'd just met would be a far greater sin than to have them focus on sex before a suicide mission, with a deeper exploration of romance afterwards. There's simply not time for a full romance in a single game. This, I believe, is why ME3's romances are mostly deeper versions of ME2's.

 

I know they are romances. I don't outright deny this.

 

But to me, the tone trends towards a more superficial exploration of romance. More of an attempt than ME1's 'okay we're about to maybe die so lets acknowledge attraction to each other', but less than ME3's 'we have a history and dreams and wants and fears about each other, and want to realize it before this war is over, one way or another'.

 

Again, yes, it is romance, but it can also so much easily be summed up more like Steve and Samantha's can in ME3 (sans Citadel DLC) - a start of something, shown in a pretty cheezy way, especially played in retrospect.

 

Jacob and Miranda should go without saying.

Garrus and Tali have great stuff (honestly the only romance I'm avoiding is Jacob's except for a joke Shepard), but they're still caught up on it being centered around 'oooo alien' with Garrus, and 'oh she wants it sooo bad but her suit!!' with Tali. You could argue so many counterpoints to this, successfully, but its still how the 'romance' part of the story is emphasized with them.

You know, that's a good idea. I think I'll argue some counterpoints to this.

 

Garrus's romance is partially that he's an alien, yes, but partially that Shepard is a very good friend to him. More than a friend, she's a leader. And since Garrus is an alien, he has no idea how to romance her, and doesn't want to lose the powerful relationships he already has with a botched attempt at a romance. Note that the paragon interrupt in his romance is to tell him, "Shut up, you're doing fine and I love you."

 

Tali's romance is partially that she wants it, but it's also that she's been denied both physical and emotional contact with pretty much everyone her entire life. Her father wasn't there for her, nor was her mother. She's been alone in the world for her entire life. And then someone comes along who sees her as more than just an asset or a suitrat. Shepard sees her as a friend, an equal. It's only natural that she'd develop feelings for him. And once the emotional connection is made, she wants a physical one as well. Again, natural.

 

And yeah, it could be interpreted as a romantic power fantasy... except that TALI is the one driving the relationship. It's Tali who asks Shepard out, albeit in a roundabout way. It's Tali that breaches the subject of sex, and is the one who works hardest to make it a reality. It's Tali who takes direction in the actual sex scene. If you don't romance her, Tali is the driving force in her romance with Garrus. She's the one with the romantic power in this relationship; Shepard is just the one who lets her know it's okay to use that power.

 

 

I firmly believe that romantic and sexual desire can co-exist, and that both can lead to each other.

[Vanilka]

I don't know about other romances because I haven't tried all that much of them yet, but Kaidan is most definitely not a fling. I think the shortcoming of ME1 is that it is mostly all talking until some point, but Kaidan makes a big point about being serious and even ends up slipping in front of femShep and pretty much accidentally confessing before they first try to kiss. In ME2 he straight up tells her he loved her. Just my two credits.

 

I have to say I have seen little of ME2 romances. My friend showed me his femShep's romance with Garrus and some flirting with Jacob. I haven't actually been bothered by the characters as much as I have by Shepard. Shepard comes across as a big bad hungry wolf at times, as if they care about nothing else than that one thing. I admit that sometimes it even creeps me out, because with Garrus it more often than not boils down to "Oh, yeah, we're gonna do it," most of the romanced conversations and you don't really get to talk much otherwise. (I'm glad the final romance scene took a more mature turn eventually.) There's absolutely nothing wrong with just wanting to sleep together for the sake of sleeping together alone. I just think it's the execution or maybe Shepard's lines or the facial expressions or something that make me go, "Nope." (I actually like Garrus' lines and how he goes about it mostly, though.) Same with what I've seen of flirting with Jacob. Shepard looks like she just wants to jump him there and then, even when you're not planning to romance him. Maybe it's just me, though. Maybe I'm overly sensitive to it because I rarely roleplay flirty characters and it really doesn't suit my Shep's personality or story.

[Rhaenyss]

Yeah, the relationship with Jacob creeped me out because she spoke to him maybe only once, and the next time she says the first sentence in a strange, rapey voice. I can't remember exactly what she said, but you could hear the quotation marks on -- Let's do some.... "talking". (if you know what I mean, wink wink, swoon) -- 

 

Kaidan was sweet, even though I had to reject him twice with my Liaramancer. He's so sure there's something between us, I felt so bad about it. I'm romancing him now with my other Shepard and I'm really enjoying it so far.

[Vanilka]

Okay, I actually found a video of Jacob's romance because, well, I'm not really planning to romance him, and because of this topic and I was surprised it has a decent amount of dialogue. Shepard still comes across as some hungry cougar that just can't wait until bed, at least until much later in the relationship where she's allowed to say some more caring things that show she actually does see him as a person. I must say it kind of made me feel nothing. "Meh," is the word I'm looking for, perhaps. And, yeah, the breakup sucks. It's such a shame. When I met Jacob for the first time in ME2, he made such a great impression. Like, "Hey, this guy looks like he's going to be cool!" But it was all gone once you get on the Normandy for some reason. Maybe it's because he barely talks if not romanced. I remember him telling me we'll talk later after almost every single mission, lol.

 

Yeah, I've had to reject Liara like twice, too. I always feel so bad because I can't really tell her it's okay and she panics. The dialogue options are mostly, "I'm not interested in you, Liara.  " I'd really like to tell her "sorry" and "don't worry about it." Or something. Pls, don't be sad, friend. Refusing video game characters is hard. 

 

I admit I love Kaidan's romance. It has a lot of cute fluff at first, a lot of build up before it goes places. Maybe it's just me but there seems to be some good chemistry between Shepard and him if you go for him. And the romance goes through all three games, too, which is awesome. Although the road is rocky, Shepard being with Cerberus for a time and all, it just really feels like a satisfying experience overall. Not that some of the writing couldn't be improved. Reducing ME1 LIs into tiny cameos in ME2 was pretty shameful, imho. But getting separated added interesting elements to the relationship and made fixing it and developing it in ME3 really rewarding. I also feel like Horizon ended up being more of a powerful moment because of it. I hope Liara is something of that sort as well, since she's pretty much romanceable in all three games, and I'm interested in trying her next.

[Inquisitor_Jonah]

Would I romance Shepard? Well, the way I envisioned my BroShep then sure. He is a good guy, he wants to help people in need, but also is kind of hot headed. He doesn't tolerate people bullshiting him around and has 0 tolerance for close-minded people. Also, I finally managed to make a face I fully like so WIN-WIN

But If I had to choose, I would choose Kaidan, every single time

[SwobyJ]

That history was only made possible by the introductions during ME2, and to a lesser extent ME1. To have Shepard miraculously fall in love with someone they'd just met would be a far greater sin than to have them focus on sex before a suicide mission, with a deeper exploration of romance afterwards. There's simply not time for a full romance in a single game. This, I believe, is why ME3's romances are mostly deeper versions of ME2's.

 

You know, that's a good idea. I think I'll argue some counterpoints to this.

 

Garrus's romance is partially that he's an alien, yes, but partially that Shepard is a very good friend to him. More than a friend, she's a leader. And since Garrus is an alien, he has no idea how to romance her, and doesn't want to lose the powerful relationships he already has with a botched attempt at a romance. Note that the paragon interrupt in his romance is to tell him, "Shut up, you're doing fine and I love you."

 

Tali's romance is partially that she wants it, but it's also that she's been denied both physical and emotional contact with pretty much everyone her entire life. Her father wasn't there for her, nor was her mother. She's been alone in the world for her entire life. And then someone comes along who sees her as more than just an asset or a suitrat. Shepard sees her as a friend, an equal. It's only natural that she'd develop feelings for him. And once the emotional connection is made, she wants a physical one as well. Again, natural.

 

And yeah, it could be interpreted as a romantic power fantasy... except that TALI is the one driving the relationship. It's Tali who asks Shepard out, albeit in a roundabout way. It's Tali that breaches the subject of sex, and is the one who works hardest to make it a reality. It's Tali who takes direction in the actual sex scene. If you don't romance her, Tali is the driving force in her romance with Garrus. She's the one with the romantic power in this relationship; Shepard is just the one who lets her know it's okay to use that power.

 

 

I firmly believe that romantic and sexual desire can co-exist, and that both can lead to each other.

 

I agree with all of this, but I think it sidesteps my point. 

 

You said it already with the first sentence "There's simply not time for a full romance in a single game. This, I believe, is why ME3's romances are mostly deeper versions of ME2's."

[Batarian Master Race]

I agree with all of this, but I think it sidesteps my point. 

 

You said it already with the first sentence "There's simply not time for a full romance in a single game. This, I believe, is why ME3's romances are mostly deeper versions of ME2's."

 

And yet ME3's romances would not have been possible were it not for ME2's. Therefore, complaining about how ME2 did romance is a moot point, since ME3 wouldn't have done any better had it not had the groundwork to build upon.

[aoibhealfae]

Technically, all import romance in ME3 were deeper versions of its previous installments and all of their ME1 romances were derivatives from their older franchises. I would say that Bioware improved on the romantic narratives after realizing its what made gamers attached to their games. And surprisingly, it did work.

 

Even I'm impressed by this. I like to read books with romance subplots but I find its frustrating when science fiction or fantasy novels written by women is always being classed under paranormal romances despite 10-20% or so from the book is about the characters being attracted to each other even if the rest of the book isn't about romance. And male consumers never quite taken by the genre and yet, people love most of BroShep's romances although it was pretty basic male-meet-female vanilla romances and I like that people demand for more queer romances even if it was still a niche in the market. But the problem with most Bioware romances, there were still camps who wanted their own specific LIs (especially, the "I want a manic pixie dream girl" camps) and sometime it can conflict with what the story demands. But I find this is problematic too since now you're too occupied with your own LIs' narrative that you neglect your own narrative as a character. It put a requirement that the LI need to be more interesting for the players rather than than your character being interesting for your LIs.

 

The problem with most Shepard's romance arcs, whether its intentional or not, to make you interesting to these LI, at some point, you're required to rescue them or fix their lives at some point. Kaidan and Ashley were saved by Shepard from the beacon, you choose them on Virmire, you rescue them on Horizon, then on Mars and technically during Citadel standoff. You rescue Liara from Therum, you rescue and help her become Shadow Broker and you rescue her again on Mars. In ME2, you have to complete their loyalty quests just so you could start a relationship with them and everyone is damsel-ed because everyone can die (this includes Kelly too). In ME3, you have to help Cortez letting go of his past just so you could start a relationship with him and Traynor fall in love with Shepard because she rescued her from the Collectors on Horizon. All these do work in gameplay but I really don't like the idea that the only way they can love you was having you save them and fixing their life and make things better for them. I like that Bioware try to fix this in Citadel DLC and Leviathan DLC, by having the LI rescue you but that left out a huge bulk of LIs who can't be in these situations... (although Jacob did save Shepard's life but everyone agree to ignore his LI status and technically, Steve did save Shepard's ass more than everyone else in ME3)

[SwobyJ]

Well someone has to pull Shepard out of that damn rubble to finish the War. #IT