15 réponses à ce sujet

[Aren]

SO, this is the first time that i have thought about this huge plot hole, first time i played Origins i was unaware about the Ultimate sacrifice but i had decided to spare Loghain because i liked him too much as a character.

Now i'm willing to justify the stupidity of the landsmeet,i can justify everything,but when it comes at redcliffe? Absolutely not Riordan reveals to me the US secret, then i ask to him of why he don't mentioned before,he respond that he was unaware of the fact that i was ignorant about the matter,i can buy this even if it is difficult, however i cannot justify this

IN LOGHAIN SCENARIO.

Remember who perform the joining on Loghain? Riordan!

So now by his twisted logic Loghain who was not even a GW at the time was aware about the US because?! Why he have not revealed the reason of why he made him a GW!

They were in  private and not at the landsmeet.

And at redcliffe in front of Anora he said "i have assumed that.....come to my room" you have assumed what? That i would have tell to Loghain this? That i have saved Loghain because i was aware of the US and not out of mercy?

Even if this was the case as Senior GW it was your duty, why you have not speak to him  immediatly about the matter?

He was a GW for god sake!

Thoughts?

[Ambivalent]

Riordan thought you and Loghain probably talked off the screen. And he thought that you and Alistair already know about it in either choices(Alistair or Loghain)

 

PS: From Landsmeet's start till Dark Ritual it was a mess anyway.

[sjsharp2011]

I always assumed in that section that Riordan thought Duncan had already told us about the sacrifices we'd have to make in order to slay the archdemon. as a GW We know he didn't but I guess that's the way it goes but after Duncan died obviously he didn't get the chance to tell us plus given the Archdemon hadn't shown itself at that stage he may have thought there was no need to say anything yet. He was probably going to tell us after the battle at somestage assuming he survived it when the beast did show up

[gnewna]

Never mind all that, why didn't Duncan tell them at Ostagar? He didn't *know* he wouldn't survive the battle, but he must have known there was a chance. (Not to mention, there's all this talk of "oh, it'd take way too long to contact the Orlesian Grey Wardens" but, like, Orlais has a land border with Ferelden, could we really not send a messenger while we get on with what is canonically around/just over a year of werewolf curse-breaking, kingmaking and so on?)

[Aren]

Duncan was with Alistair 6 month........ never bothered to mention this

 Riordan don't mention this to Loghain who is a recruit

Avernus well he doesn't care at all.

[sjsharp2011]

Whilst Duncan did admit he did have suspicions that it was a full on Blight he didn't know for certain as Archie hadn't shown up yet at that stage and I doubt any warden would until the archdemon was on the march anyway. I also remember hearing Riordan say it's usually up to the senior warden to make the final killing blow that slays it.Which of course would have meant that had he survived to the end of the story it would have been Duncan slaying rather than Alistair or the HOF. So in truth it's likely they wouldn't have been told until towards the end anyway it was just up to Riordan to now break the news given what happened at Ostagar to Duncan given they were the only ones in the area available in the country now to do it.

[Mike3207]

 

 

I'm still trying to figure out how Anora knew of the dangers, since Duncan was so tight-lipped about it. Did I miss something in-game that hints at the Joining being discussed outside of the Grey Wardens? Or was Anora pulled aside and told in secret by Riordan because he planned to convince the PC from the start to spare Loghain? I feel like something occurred off-screen, or the King knew too much and had a big mouth.

I remember hearing somewhere that all the leading nations had been informed that Wardens are necessary to end a blight, although it wasn't made aware to the public. I favor the theory that there were books about it in the royal library, and Anora simply read about it. It's as good a theory as anything else.

[gnewna]

I'm still trying to figure out how Anora knew of the dangers, since Duncan was so tight-lipped about it. Did I miss something in-game that hints at the Joining being discussed outside of the Grey Wardens? Or was Anora pulled aside and told in secret by Riordan because he planned to convince the PC from the start to spare Loghain? I feel like something occurred off-screen, or the King knew too much and had a big mouth.

 

I would guess that, even if there's a highish proportion of recruits taken from prisons, guttersnipes like Daveth etc (not sure if this is the case or not, I know the RoC is only meant to be invoked rarely) people would still notice that a significant number of people who go off to join the Grey Wardens are just never heard from again, never present in patrols and so on. You don't have to know exactly what the Joining involves to have a chance of figuring out that it's risky. (Jory is shocked, of course, which perhaps makes this less plausible, but he's not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed, and is clearly blinded by the idea of Glory etc.)

[sylvanaerie]

The initial Joining info is kept secret.  Cailan didn't know squat about the archdemon's demise.  He had on hand in Ostagar Maric's blade so he could kill the beast himself.  Nor does his conversations hint at any knowledge of the Joining specifically either.  If Cailan, who was such a warden fanboi, didn't know, neither should Loghain or Anora.  Nothing is mentioned about the Joining--even from Duncan--till you get to the cup except that it's 'dangerous'.  At which point Ser Jory freaks out Daveth dies and you get more nasty warden secret surprises.  Death from poisoning, and if the cost of trying to run and potentially blab is to be killed, I don't know how anyone could have escaped to tell.

 

Yet, not only does Anora, but Wynne and Leliana both mention the Joining as if everyone knows about it.  And Loghain doesn't seem surprised when Anora brings it up.  While Wynne could be argued to have actually maybe made some of the joining mojo in the past (she wasn't in Ostagar), there is no reason Anora or Leliana are explained to have known this 'top secret warden ritual'.  For that matter, Wynne despises blood magic, and the Joining is exactly that, so I got issues with her matter of factly acceptance of it.

Morrigan and Flemeth know about the Archdemon, but neither of them offer up any secrets until after Riordan's little bombshell is revealed.

 

Bioware wanted to guard their secrets till the very last minute, eking out the shock value of every reveal.  Suspense is a part of good storytelling.  My beef with the story is once the secret of the Joining is revealed, it seems everyone and his mabari knows about how it's done.  If there were more story after Riordan's reveal I have no doubts other people would have revealed they knew (aside from Morrigan) about the archdemon's method of demise beyond just rumors that 'wardens are important during blights'.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Apparently it's common knowledge that the Joining is fatal. During a certain character's judgement in Inquisition, you can send them to become a Grey Warden and you can also say that becoming a Grey Warden might also kill them, which means that apparently the Joining being fatal is common knowledge.

[Illegitimus]

Apparently it's common knowledge that the Joining is fatal. During a certain character's judgement in Inquisition, you can send them to become a Grey Warden and you can also say that becoming a Grey Warden might also kill them, which means that apparently the Joining being fatal is common knowledge.

 

 

The part of the joining that is secret is just what's in that cup.  This is something the Grey Wardens can't let out because if the world at large knew that the Grey Wardens are actually tainted with blight and are becoming ghouls in slow motion their job would become rather more difficult.  

[Dai Grepher]

If Riordan had told you before, would you have believed him?

 

If the excuse works for Morrigan, then it works for him too.

 

Seriously though, he knew Loghain didn't know. He just suspected Duncan may have told you. Odd how Duncan doesn't tell you after your Joining either. So I guess Riordan's choice not to tell Loghain right away was not abnormal. I suspect this has something to do with the fact that the Wardens don't want this secret getting out. So they think it best not to talk about it to other Wardens except when the situation calls for it, such as on the eve of battle with an archdemon and to decide who will make the sacrifice.

 

My male human warrior suspected that the archdemon's death involved soul cancellation, and he spared Loghain for that reason among others. So none of this really bothered him.

[Aren]

If Riordan had told you before, would you have believed him?

 

If the excuse works for Morrigan, then it works for him too.

 

Seriously though, he knew Loghain didn't know. He just suspected Duncan may have told you. Odd how Duncan doesn't tell you after your Joining either. So I guess Riordan's choice not to tell Loghain right away was not abnormal. I suspect this has something to do with the fact that the Wardens don't want this secret getting out. So they think it best not to talk about it to other Wardens except when the situation calls for it, such as on the eve of battle with an archdemon and to decide who will make the sacrifice.

 

My male human warrior suspected that the archdemon's death involved soul cancellation, and he spared Loghain for that reason among others. So none of this really bothered him.

In fact the excuse doesn't work for Morrigan, neither for RIordan,she hide the info for her own benefit,it doesn't matter if you would have believe to her or not,know this from the beginning could have been an advantage.

As a senior GW it was his responsability to talk about his plan to sacrifice himself to the others GW,and no GW must share their knowledge to others GW,especially when an AD is around,RIordan was there with me in Emon estate the whole time,and he never mentioned this to Loghain who was a new GW created by him personally,bad writing here.