102 réponses à ce sujet

[jones81381]

Seriously... It is incredibly difficult to fight anything remotely challenging like a dragon simply because the AI is idiotic. I was fighting the dragon in Crestwood with myself (stabby rogue), Sera (shooty rogue), Solas, and Bull (sword and board). Now normally the AI is dumb anyway and I have to severely micro manage the characters' field positions to maintain safe ranges for my ranged people otherwise they end up trying to go toe to toe with a swordsman or something. With this dragon though, due to its lightning field ability Sera and Solas couldn't even stand near each other so I send them all to positions, Bull tanking, my rogue at back left haunch furiously stabbing at the dragon's ass, and Sera and Solas standing to the left of the dragon, several yards away from stabby rogue and each other with the Hold Position order. Cool, except that lasts all of about 3 seconds before something happens and someone moves, either Bull moves to face the dragon toward toward Sera and Solas, Bull decides to stand where I'm standing, or Sera and Solas decide they don't like being safe and want to run give the dragon a hug. Regardless of who moved and why, dragon pops that stupid lightning field thing and because for some reason now everyone is standing on top of each other so everyone is killing each other. Said **** it and reloaded and tried again. This time I super micro managed everyone's position, changing character every second or two to make sure they didn't move somewhere stupid and I killed it, barely; was still a struggle to keep Sera from standing in fire or Solas from trying to hug the dragon and neither of them have a lot of life.

 

Point is, the AI is stupid and needs to be way better next go around. There needs to be more conditions that the player can set to control how a character acts in battle. For example, one such condition could be 'Keep Range From Target' with a selection of ranges from 0 meters (melee), 5-10 meters, up to something like 25 meters, whatever seems right. Additionally, another condition could be 'Keep Range from Allies' which would make the character in question, let's say Solas, attempt to stay in a certain range from all allies on the field and if not possible, say they're all spread too far apart for Solas to stay in that range for all of them, he'll position himself so that he's in that range to as many as possible. The conditions should have a hierarchy, like condition 1 is more important than 2, and 2 is more important than 3, etc so if two conditions were to conflict with one another, like for example Varric has a condition to try to stay on elevated ground if possible, but he also has a condition to stay within 10 to 15 meters of the target and the target moves far away, if the range condition is rank 3 and the elevation condition is rank 5, then the range condition wins and Varric will abandon his elevated position in favor of staying within range of the target. I seem to recall that DA:O had far more options to make your group members more combat competent than Inquisition does. I remember once I had everyone set up properly I could steamroll through wave after wave of enemies without having to control my companions more than a couple times. Why the step back?

 

I know some people will say that if we can make the characters smart enough to fight properly on their own that will ruin the fun, but for me, having to micromanage nearly every battle ruins my fun. I want to play my character, mine, not every character. I want my companions to be smart enough (even if I have to set it) to not get themselves killed by standing in fire or hugging dragons as a squishy squishy mage.

[Saphiron123]

Yup. In origins and da2 we had a measure of control, the tactics menu was great and it was uniquely dragon age... then someone decided it was too hard to learn, and they removed that feature of the game.

Now Solas starts every fight by wasting his barrier 20 seconds too early. 6 years ago I could have fixed him, now I have no such option.

[Sylvius the Mad]

If BioWare knew the AI wasn't good, that would explain their choice to make the game entirely unchallenging. I wonder if, faced with the added difficulty from the party being difficult to control, they just made the enemies weaker to compensate.

Because, despite the AI, the game is in no way difficult.

Now, that said, I haven't had the same problems with positioning as the OP has, perhaps because I do micromanage the whole party. That's how I expect to play a party-based game. Once the battle is joined and there's any danger, never spend more than a second unpaused at a time, and I will survey the whole battlefield nearly every time I do pause (I love the free-roaming camera DAI has).

I'll let characters act on their own only of there's little risk of things going wrong.

[Nomen Mendax]

I agree that the AI is really not very good, and to make matters worse the game does a very poor job of explaining what effect the behaviour settings (defend, follow and so on) actually have. I suspect some of the difficulty is that many of the abilities revolve around movement - flanking attacks, leaping shot and so on which probably makes it difficult to figure out ideal positions for the NPCs.

 

I'm also surprised (and sometimes amused) at how much trouble they've had with pathfinding in Frostbite. It's very noticeable with the tactical camera since they show you the route the character will take to get to his or her destination. 

[10K]

I don't know what you guys are talking about, the AI is phenomenal. It's just great when they ignore my orders after positioning them and telling them to stay where I set them. Oh and Varric is the best tank ever!! He takes those hits to his face like a pro. BW did a wonderful job with AI, and who needs those tactic menus. I hope the next DA game continues with this awesomeness. 

[Darkly Tranquil]

The problems with the combat in DAI are a combination of a least three blunders all compounding each other. First, they botched the companion AI, so you party members do stupid and suicidal things at every possible opportunity. Second, they neutered the tactics system to the point where they are barely functional and effectively useless; Origins style tactics could have been used to offset the AI problem to a significant degree. Third, their implementation of the Tactical cam was so poor, and it's controls so awkward and unresponsive, that it becomes an exercise in frustration to use. If they had managed to get even one of these functions to work properly, the others could have been forgiven, but to botch all three party control systems in a party based RPG is just unforgivable, and makes DAI's combat terrible. It is only made bearable by how laughably easy it is.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Third, their implementation of the Tactical cam was so poor, and it's controls so awkward and unresponsive, that it becomes an exercise in frustration to use.

RMB to activate mouselook. Drive with WASD.

The Tac Cam controls are arguably unusual (though not really - it's the Total War battlefield camera almost exactly), but they are not unresponsive.

[Elhanan]

While I prefer the Tactics of the previous games, the system in DAI along with Behavior work well for Companions; much better than many games. But as with the infamous Recommended feature of NWN1, the default settings may not be the droid one is seeking.

Advise setting defensive abilities to Preferred, and set Follow to self; also lower Mana/ Stamina and Potion usage to 20%. This combo works well for most encounters.

[Duelist]

While I would like the tactics menu back, I've found DAI a lot better when it comes to controlling rogue party members (melee rogues in particular) although I would attribute that to a better selection of talents than the AI being good.

[jones81381]

I hate the camera for tactical view. It doesn't zoom out enough. It needs to zoom out farther so I can see the entire battlefield at once. As it is, it barely zooms out to 10 feet above the character's head.

[Magdalena11]

I use tactical camera for combat, but switch frequently to isometric if I have to change position on the battlefield at all, because the pathfinding in tactical is terrible.  If a small rock would be easily jumped onto, Inq will run 3/4 of the way around the battlefield in order to walk up instead, sometimes through the space occupied by the enemy.  Really?  I also find the limited ability of the tactical camera to point upward very challenging when fighting rifts and despair demons.  I've moved the camera half a dozen times and am still craning my neck trying to see the status of the terror on the ridge.  Wow, that one rift in the Hinterlands is annoying.  

 

Yes, I know that no matter what angle I view the monitor from, I'll never be able to see around the monitor by looking at its side.  I also know that leaning into the desk does nothing to help Inq stick to the rock she's sliding off of.  You tell that to my muscles, because they stopped listening to me in November.

[Grieving Natashina]

Quick impression of dealing with ranged party members on dragon fights:

 

 

"Get out of the fire.  You're still in the fire. Why are you in the fire?  Get out of the fire.  You die."

"Oh, was I supposed to get out of the fire?  I thought you were supposed to get in the fire.  My bad."

[jones81381]

Ugh... I used to play WoW, only recently quit (again) and yes, that is exactly how stupid some people are. It's infuriating. 

[DSiKn355]

If BioWare knew the AI wasn't good, that would explain their choice to make the game entirely unchallenging. I wonder if, faced with the added difficulty from the party being difficult to control, they just made the enemies weaker to compensate.

Because, despite the AI, the game is in no way difficult.

Now, that said, I haven't had the same problems with positioning as the OP has, perhaps because I do micromanage the whole party. That's how I expect to play a party-based game. Once the battle is joined and there's any danger, never spend more than a second unpaused at a time, and I will survey the whole battlefield nearly every time I do pause (I love the free-roaming camera DAI has).

I'll let characters act on their own only of there's little risk of things going wrong.

 

I understand that is probably the best way to play but for me I as a play feel too much of an outsider during battles like that.

 

I am essentially an outside source despite my character representation i cannot just be that character as I need to play god and control the entire party which by rights the Party AI options should take care of otherwise why are the AI options there in the first place?

 

A failed mechanic is a failed mechanic.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I am essentially an outside source despite my character representation i cannot just be that character as I need to play god and control the entire party...

This is traditionally how party-based RPGs have worked, and how I prefer to play.

If I only play one character, I have to question why the other characters are there.

[Toasted Llama]

Quick impression of dealing with ranged party members on dragon fights:

 

 

"Get out of the fire.  You're still in the fire.  And now you're dead."

"Oh, was I supposed to get out of the fire?  I thought you were supposed to get in the fire.  My bad."

Wowcrendor never disappoints! But yeah this is really frustrating in dragon fights. "Why is varric taking so much dama-- oh. Aaaaand he's dead...."

[eyezonlyii]

I love how everyone is acting like Origins was the first party tactics control scheme. FF12 had the gambit system 3 years before and was MUCH deeper than even the origins system. Just throwing that out there. But I would like either the tactics system back, or do like Dragon's Dogma and have your people learn from combat throughout the game.

[jones81381]

This is traditionally how party-based RPGs have worked, and how I prefer to play.

If I only play one character, I have to question why the other characters are there.

 

They are there to assist you. If you like micromanaging your help that's fine, but in my mind companion NPCs are not supposed to need the level of micromanaging that the DAI companions need. I think it was the original Fallout games that shaped my opinion on the matter. In those games you had companions but you couldn't control them in combat. You could talk to them outside of combat and issue them various orders that pertained to combat, and they would alter their combat behavior based on those orders, but you couldn't directly control them. In that game you weren't god, you couldn't "devinely inspire" your companions to do specific things. You controlled your character and issued orders to your companions and hoped they carried them out properly. It was rather realistic in that sense. The system worked quite well and made for some interesting gameplay. "SULIK!! Stop shooting me in the back, you bastard! FFS! Use a sledgehammer from now on. No more guns for you!" It was fun times for the whole family. 

[In Exile]

RMB to activate mouselook. Drive with WASD.

The Tac Cam controls are arguably unusual (though not really - it's the Total War battlefield camera almost exactly), but they are not unresponsive.

 

My issue with the Tac Cam controls ties in with the inability to control multiple characters and the very poor path finding. The absence of a proper hold button is another issue. 

[In Exile]

I love how everyone is acting like Origins was the first party tactics control scheme. FF12 had the gambit system 3 years before and was MUCH deeper than even the origins system. Just throwing that out there. But I would like either the tactics system back, or do like Dragon's Dogma and have your people learn from combat throughout the game.

 

Not to mention that the old response use to be a more eloquent version of "lern 2 RPG n00b" when it came to the introduction of tactics pre-release, as the gold standard was micromanagement with full party control. Though some people - notably Sylvius - were fans (though I can't recall, Sylvius, if you requested that you be allowed to also control the PC via tactics pre-release). 

[Elhanan]

My issue with the Tac Cam controls ties in with the inability to control multiple characters and the very poor path finding. The absence of a proper hold button is another issue.

I rather like the path finding, but also like the free cam system, too. In DAI, I am able to locate cover and gain intel on the path that character will take. Tree in the way; stay there under cover and cast spells as possible. Ledge too far from the ground; either Jump down or skirt to a safer drop off point. Etc.

As for Hold, it seems to have three stages (these are only guesses based on observations; seek confirmation): Action hold will only last a little while until the character has performed another action, Tac-Cam Hold lasts longer but still will expire after some sort of other command, and Tac-Cam double click Hold command which seems to lock them into place for much longer.

[Sylvius the Mad]

(though I can't recall, Sylvius, if you requested that you be allowed to also control the PC via tactics pre-release).

I did. I wanted the entire party to follow those tactics without any input from me at all.

[eyezonlyii]

I did. I wanted the entire party to follow those tactics without any input from me at all.

wouldn't that make the game an RTS as opposed to an RPG?

[Sylvius the Mad]

wouldn't that make the game an RTS as opposed to an RPG?

This would have nothing to do with whether it's a roleplaying game.

[Artemis_Entrari]

Oh God, the OP brought back annoying flashbacks to my own hatred of the companion AI in combat.

 

Other random things my party did unless I micromanaged them every second:

-When a dragon is breathing fire, they stand in the fire's path.  They do not even attempt to move to one side.

-When fighting an enemy that has lightning damage, they stand in the middle of water so that said lightning becomes even deadlier.  Not attempt to move 2 feet over, to a patch of dry land.  Nope, gotta stand in the middle of water while being attacked by lightning.

-Ranged characters don't attempt to retreat when being attacked by a melee character.  Yes, shooting arrows at an enemy one foot away while he bashes you with a two-handed sword won't end well.

 

There are others, but the above, especially the first two, were cause for no end to my grief whenever I'd face a dragon or anyone tough.