116 respuestas en este tema

[SuperJogi]

If you think my reasoning has anything to do with religion or emotions vs reason, you are wrong.

I highly value scientific and societial pogress and I have no automatic rejection of changing the human body, but I equally value the personal freedom to live your live as you want to. I think industrialization has improved our society greatly, but if someone wants to have no part in this and wants to live alone in the woods, he should have the freedom to do so. The same way I believe that religion is ridicoulus, but if someone wants to worship an invisible sky god, go ahead.

Synthesis forcibly changes you, I can not agree with that. You could make the argument that it is no different than harvesting a species to turn them into a reaper, because maybe reapers like beeing reapers?

You could also say that synthesis is equal to failing to stop the reapers, since in both cases you failed to preserve life as it is.

[MrFob]

But the question is - why? Why would they try and claw their eyes out? Because a chemical imbalance in their brain caused them to become depressed?

As I wrote in my post, because people are diverse, because in a galaxy full of trillions of sentient beings you will find every possible reaction. Just look around the earth today, how many anti-technology and Luddite groups you will find, who many who will do other stupid stuff for stupid reasons. I know a whole bunch of people who would react exactly like I described if they were to look into the mirror tomorrow and see that their bodies were changed into a green glowing half android.

And on a side note, remember that we don't only alter the high tech space faring societies here. We alter everyone and every living thing in the entire galaxy, including species that may not even have space travel. How will those societies be altered when they suddenly change this way and gain access to all this knowladge without their views being altered at the same time? Will all of them accept it? How will they react? Remember what happened to the krogan when they were "uplifted" by the salarians? Remember what Mordin said in ME2 about cultural vs. technological changes? The effects are just completely unpredictable. It's just the one-sided epilogue that gives us the happy picture.

 

I will agree that it is most likely that something like Synthesis will re-enforce the logical side of every individual it affects, and will most likely fix things on the level of depression capable of causing self-mutilation and / or suicide.

So if you do agree that it will modify our behavior, then we are back to my first post.

 

Life may become slightly more boring in some respects, but not worse.

Life for whom? For you? For me? Probably so. But for everyone? Life is something different for all of us, so whether it's better or worse is up to everyone to decide. That's at the core of my problem with synthesis.

[Laughing_Man]

@SuperJogi

 

Well, none of the options you are given are perfect.

 

Control has its moral issues, Destroy leaves you wondering if the Reapers were right about synthetics and eventual destruction by them, also, no Geth or EDI.

 

Synthesis is more... complicated, perhaps morally questionable to some degree, but also offers a free upgrade to singularity for everyone.

[Laughing_Man]

So you do agree that it will modify our behavior. Well, in that case we are back to my first post.

I disagreed on mind control. I don't think you can equate anti depression pills to actual mind control, even if technically they are similar.

[SuperJogi]

I disagreed on mind control. I don't think you can equate anti depression pills to actual mind control, even if technically they are similar.

 

Except that taking anti depression pills is a choice you can make for yourself.

 

@SuperJogi

 

Synthesis is more... complicated, perhaps morally questionable to some degree, but also offers a free upgrade to singularity for everyone.

 

Yes, an upgrade that is forced on everyone. I fail to see the fundemental difference between the reaper solution and synthesis, except for the lower bodycount.

[Laughing_Man]

Except that taking anti depression pills is a choice you can make for yourself.

 
Many would argue that a person suffering from depression deep enough to cause self-mutilation or suicide, is not capable of making his or her own decisions.
 

Yes, an upgrade that is forced on everyone. I fail to see the fundemental difference between the reaper solution and synthesis, except for the lower bodycount.

Well, again, other options are flawed as well. The question is a fundamental question of loss Vs. gain.

 

Besides, the whole blood and doom thing is what makes the main difference between the Reapers and Santa Claus...

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

See, we have to remember one thing. This is a video game. We are fighting giant Cthulhu machine monsters who are going to eat everyone and there is no way to stop them. Shepard has been as a rule by dialog a dumb ass. She's worked for Cerberus because those she worked for before became even dumber than she is. Now she's faced with the following choices:

 

1) destroy the reapers, but also destroy the relay system, destroy all synthetics, destroy technology (but no more than has already been lost - so here you take what has already been lost and double it -returning your civilization to the industrial age, ready to rebuild). It will take time (how much?). But we go our own way. I will tell you that emerging from Low EMS Destroy will be the default start for ME- Next if they build off ME3. All problems are swept under the rug by the writers.

 

2) control the reapers, and become a synthetic god watching over the galaxy for the next several billion years until the andromeda galaxy collides with ours. You may come to the same conclusion as the Catalyst. All problems are swept under the rug by the writers.

 

3) synthesis - the happy ending where you die, and the cycles end the reapers help everyone rebuild. Everyone now is able to understand each other because everything is changed. All problems are swept under the rug by the writers.

 

Now why is this? Because Shepard never left the ground in London. All of it happened in Shepard's brain.

 

The thing is that Synthesis will absolutely not be the default ending or the canon ending going into ME-Next. It can't be. Why? There is no conflict. You can't have a story without conflict. This is why I've said that the line from BW that they take our choices seriously (regarding the ending) is BS.

 

Well they may take our choices seriously and their way out is the Stargazer scene. - it was a bedtime story. Now let's write the real story about the Mass Effect Universe.

[Vazgen]

I fail to see a difference that goes beyond a euphemism.

The way I see it, forced implies resistance. And we don't really know whether people would've resisted Synthesis or not. The Catalyst says itself that it "can't be forced". 

[SuperJogi]

 
Well, again, other options are flawed as well. The question is a fundamental question of loss Vs. gain.

 

Besides, the whole blood and doom thing is what makes the main difference between the Reapers and Santa Claus...

 

Do you know the Star Trek: TOS episode where Kirk visits a planet that is in a simulated nuclear war? They simply simulate each nuclear attack and then send the people who theoreticly would have died to extermination chambers in order to make the war more "clean" and limit destruction. From a loss vs. gains perspective, that is completly sensible. However, in the end Kirk destroyes the simulator, forcing the people to go real nuclear. By tearing down the pretty facade, they realize how much destruction and suffering a nuclear war brings and immideatly make peace.

So maybe the blood and doom of the reapers is a good thing to remind us how terrible forcibly changing an entire species is.

 

[MrFob]

The way I see it, forced implies resistance. And we don't really know whether people would've resisted Synthesis or not. The Catalyst says itself that it "can't be forced". 

So you honestly believe that an entire galaxy will unanimously agree to go through synthesis when even this forum cannot? I call BS on the catalyst once again.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

So you honestly believe that an entire galaxy will unanimously agree to go through synthesis when even this forum cannot? I call BS on the catalyst once again.

 

Don't disturb the phlebotinum!

[Gago]

Best thing ever, praise the Shepard!

[Vazgen]

So you honestly believe that an entire galaxy will unanimously agree to go through synthesis when even this forum cannot? I call BS on the catalyst once again.

I don't know. All I know is that the society in ME:Next is much more advanced than ours and that the choice means an end to the devastating war and even offers benefits alongside it. All I'm saying is that we don't know whether the idea will be met with similar disdain as today and even think that it will be more accepted in MEU with widespread genetic modification and cybernetic implantation. 

[MrFob]

I don't know. All I know is that the society in ME:Next is much more advanced than ours and that the choice means an end to the devastating war and even offers benefits alongside it. All I'm saying is that we don't know whether the idea will be met with similar disdain as today and even think that it will be more accepted in MEU with widespread genetic modification and cybernetic implantation.

As I said before, even if that was true, you are not only modifying species that are on the same level as the council races.

[Vazgen]

As I said before, even if that was true, you are not only modifying species that are on the same level as the council races.

And how many of such species are "civilized" (another can of worms). We know of the yahg and raloi, are there any others? Should we be concerned with thoughts of plants or animals on the matter? I'm not defending Synthesis, I don't like it at all but I can see how the idea can be appealing. I shoot the tube anyway

 

I think the execution of Synthesis is what causes most of the problems with that particular ending. Very drastic change in a very short period of time. If Synthesis took hundreds of years and the ending only established basis for that, it would've been more acceptable IMO. 

[Undead Han]

Since most people consider synthesis to be the best ending...

 

All the polls on ending choice have ended with High EMS Destroy being by far the fan favorite, and Synthesis being the least, including one from 2012 that had a couple thousand votes.

 

Without Bioware releasing their own internal stats on what people chose for the ending the best we have to go on are those fan created polls, and those indicate the opposite of what you suggest.

[Laughing_Man]

All the polls on ending choice have ended with High EMS Destroy being by far the fan favorite, and Synthesis being the least, including one from 2012 that had a couple thousand votes.

 

Without Bioware releasing their own internal stats on what people chose for the ending the best we have to go on are those fan created polls, and those indicate the opposite of what you suggest.

 

Well, strangely enough my favorite would probably be the HMS Destroy, but I only played through the ending once, and actually chose Synthesis...

[Marolf]

I'm sure i wrote that somewhere else before, but whatever you choose (and shep is forced to play god, because he has to choose the fate of the entire galaxy and his decision is forced on every beeing, no matter what), it's just peace or even a good end for the moment, but not the long run.

 

The endings remind me of the Descent: Freespace Series. Whatever you did, you survived by sheer luck or because the shivans decided to let you live, but always had to pay a big price or make a huge sacrifice.

 

 

...

 

The thing is that Synthesis will absolutely not be the default ending or the canon ending going into ME-Next. It can't be. Why? There is no conflict. You can't have a story without conflict. ...

 

Synthesis does not only changes organic life but synthetic as well, giving them the ability to feel and think what life really is. It's struggle. Only the strong will prevail and survive. And who are the strongest? The Reapers after all. Synthesis is just the end for the everlasting synthetic/organic conflict, but not the end of all conflicts to come. Civil war has happened in every organic civilization before and as sson as the reapers realize, who has got the power, it certainly will start again. But this time for extinction, not preservation, cause all are equal in their DNA now. but there is a glipmse of hope that they won't do it.

 

It is the most paragon solution imho, one sacrifice to safe them all.

Control keeps a part of you, your memories intact.

And Destroy, genocide for all synthetics.

 

But if you pick destroy, do you really think the survivers of this war are capable repairing the mass relays?

The Protheans where on the brink of unravelling the mysteries, but we are not the Protheans.

Most major planets are in a bad shape, decimated population, most industry centers laid to waste, armies shattered.

I for myself doubt that. That's why i chose synthesis, although it can never be canon:

"Who dares to enter our realm... we've got the Reaper Keepers on our side!"

Not a chance.

[SuperJogi]

cause all are equal in their DNA now.

 

Wait, WAT? Where does it does it say that? That makes absolutly no sense.

 

But if you pick destroy, do you really think the survivers of this war are capable repairing the mass relays?

The Protheans where on the brink of unravelling the mysteries, but we are not the Protheans.

Most major planets are in a bad shape, decimated population, most industry centers laid to waste, armies shattered.

I for myself doubt that. That's why i chose synthesis, although it can never be canon:

"Who dares to enter our realm... we've got the Reaper Keepers on our side!"

Not a chance.

 

If the immediate aftermath of the war is your concern, then control is the obvious choice. The reapers are an invaluable asset in the rebuilding efforts and eternal benelovent dictator leader shepard can insure peace and prosperity.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The way I think it was set up by the writers in the EC is this:

 

Best ending: Synthesis

Good ending: Destroy

Bad ending: Control -- too many things can go wrong here. What if you have renegade Shepard?

 

In the Original Ending it was this:

 

Best: Synthesis

Good: Control

Bad: Destroy

 

With destroy you were sacrificing your technology and it reverted to a 10,000 year dark age for the galaxy. In synthesis reaper tech suddenly changes from "bad evil tech" to "good tech." The ending has a lot of problems the way it was written, but what do you expect for being written right after playing DE:HR, choosing Sarif Industries and then watching The Matrix trilogy?

 

Please note: this is the first time I chose synthesis. I did it because I wanted closure with this trilogy, and this was the only ending that could provide closure with Shepard, let EDI live, and let the Geth live. All other endings require major head canons to project the future of the galaxy. Shepard lives in high EMS destroy - head canon required. Shepard is the Catalyst in Control - head canon required. Bah! No more. No more!!!! I can't take it anymore!!! Free green stuff for everyone!!! You are now cyborgs!!! And I can sleep not wondering about the future of the galaxy.

 

Okay Shotgun....

 

Spoiler

 

I don't care!!!

[SuperJogi]

It's labeled in their scenario code (not sure what to call it) as Best (Synth), Good (Destroy), and Control (Bad). 

 

Wow, I didn't even know that. Speaks of an incredibly naive worldview. The consequences of all three endings are so tremendous, far reaching and complex, that just the idea of putting them into categories like "good" and "bad" is extremely foolish.

[Vazgen]

Wow, I didn't even know that. Speaks of an incredibly naive worldview. The consequences of all three endings are so tremendous, far reaching and complex, that just the idea of putting them into categories like "good" and "bad" is extremely foolish.

It was not a scenario, more like a script for the cutscene. The platforms were labeled as Best Platform (Synthesis), Good Platform (Destroy) and Bad Platform (Control). It was probably just the view of the one in charge of developing the scene, not something intended by the writers.

 

Mr.Fob posted a picture of that in one thread.