116 replies to this topic

[Callidous]

Saying synthesis forces people is a bit dumb really. Destroy forces the geth to die. Control forces the reapers to be controlled and gives Shepard control of the galaxy if he ever wishes it. Synthesis forces utopia. What was he supposed to do? Say "I'm sorry Starchild, I need to pause the reapers for a few years so I can convene the galaxy and ask them if immortality, peace, and happiness at very little expense is alright with them." Synthesis appears to do little to change peoples personalities or identities, merely physical makeup.

Shepard had to make a choice. A choice to force genocide, betray his ideals and side with TIMs ideals, or create paradise. And with the "forcing" fallacy out of the way, utopia is the correct option.

[Callidous]

Of course, Destroy forces the Geth to die. That's what the choice is.. destroying synthetics. What you see is what you get. There are no ulterior or questionable aspects about it.

Although you'd do well to kill them already. They use Reaper code in Rannoch, and are not really the Geth at all.

And few people give a **** except the nerds who think these are real friends or something. I mean, I consider myself a geek, but I have my limits.

That's my point. The choice is also about forcing the geth to die against their will. All the choices are meaning you can't logically single out synthesis.

The geth are sentient. Just like organics. The only thing that the reaper code did was grant them autonomy. Meaning they should be given as much confederation as anyone else.

[Callidous]

The geth aren't even AI unless you gave them Reaper code. In which case, you might as well go balls out and choose Synthesis. Because you're already making similar decisions to begin with.

They are a networked AI which is still self aware and sentient, just not individually intelligent.

[themikefest]

 Those things were destroyed when I sided with the quarians. There was no genocide when I picked destroy

[Callidous]

Those things were destroyed when I sided with the quarians. There was no genocide when I picked destroy

Then you merely commited genocide earlier in the play through and still forced them to die earlier.

[themikefest]

Then you merely commited genocide earlier in the play through and still forced them to die earlier.

Against a bunch of machines? No genocide happened.

[Callidous]

lol.. like I said, these choices are for dorks.

Genocide. Listen to yourself. You're not going to guilt anyone here.

Okay troll. Then dont frequent the lore discussion forums and go back to your bridge. Wasting time in a place you dont wish to contribute to is for dorks.

[Callidous]

Against a bunch of machines? No genocide happened.

Sentient self aware machines. Just being organic doesnt make you alive. The geth are equally as alive as other species. Before the reaper code upload though, you could argue they are little more than animals, but still a living, conscious, self aware race. Genocide.

[themikefest]

Sentient self aware machines. Just being organic doesnt make you alive. The geth are equally as alive as other species. Before the reaper code upload though, you could argue they are little more than animals, but still a living, conscious, self aware race. Genocide.

 I will always pick destroy.

[Callidous]

I'm not a troll. I'm just a person..living in reality. I don't accuse people of "genocide" when they destroy computers. Not even AI researchers think like this.

And not everyone here is a dork. I get along just fine, for the most part.

The mass effect universe would disagree. They specifically state that AI is self aware and alive. As opposed to VI. This is a distinction not apparent in many universes (and reality) I'll grant, but why are you trying to apply real world logic to something the game has already said is a thing? Edi is alive. Conscious. Self aware. The lore says so.

[Callidous]

I'm appealing to it because your tactic is to try to guilt people with morality and words like genocide. So I'm gonna start making this real. You stopped making it a fun subject.

Casey Hudson said this series was just about exploring these different concepts. Not about giving all the answers.

Im coming off as far more aggressive than I intend. Forgive me, I'm cranky from quitting smoking.

Yes I am talking about genocide because that's the point. Killing the quarians is also genocide but that's not the part of the discussion. My whole point, that seems to have derailed everything, is that synthesis means you make a decision for everyone, but killing the geth is also making a decision for them. The difference, is that synthesis makes utopia while destroy leaves everything the same except with a lot forced to die. (Even more if EMS isnt high).

[Callidous]

OK, I quit smoking awhile back. lol. We have something in common.

I think there's all kinds of repulsion from me on many aspects of synthesis. I don't care about utopia either. It's just not even close on my wishlist. I'm not much of an idealist, and try not to entertain things like that. I like simple acts of kindness, but I don't care about changing the whole world/universe/etc.. As for the Geth, like I said, I think it's a mistake to upgrade them to begin with. If Legion/Geth didn't side with the Reapers, I'd have been fine leaving them alone..and letting them "build their own future" like Legion wanted in ME2. I don't think they're true AI, but I figured it'd be harmless if they had their own spot in the galaxy.

Sometimes I think this galaxy was BETTER OFF before ME1, and before Saren and Shepard. I'm not sure if I'm really fixing anything by getting involved.

Just out of curiousity, how do you feel about the refusal ending? If we assume by the female stargazer that the next cycle totally wiped out the reapers.

[Marolf]

Sometimes I think this galaxy was BETTER OFF before ME1, and before Saren and Shepard. I'm not sure if I'm really fixing anything by getting involved.

 

Well if not for you or Shepard, someone else will take the place to fight the threats that lurk on the horizon, as it always has been and well be.

 

Wait, WAT? Where does it does it say that? That makes absolutly no sense.

 

If the immediate aftermath of the war is your concern, then control is the obvious choice. The reapers are an invaluable asset in the rebuilding efforts and eternal benelovent dictator leader shepard can insure peace and prosperity.

 

 

Around 3:50 min the Catalyst explains it.

 

Control leaves the surviving organics in fear. You fight for survival and snap.... let me lend you a hand?

It will take quite some time for them to build up trust. Longer than after Synthesis.

There it's more like waiking up from a dream, sharing the same DNA, the same memories  "... i can see clearly now, the rain is gone ....", utopia if you want to say so.

And it will only work as long as ShepAI won't think otherwise.

 

But what ever you choose, you force it upon every being, organic or synthetic.

With high enough EMS, Destroy and Control lets you witness the results of your decision, while Synthesis doesn't.

[Hrulj]

Im coming off as far more aggressive than I intend. Forgive me, I'm cranky from quitting smoking.

Yes I am talking about genocide because that's the point. Killing the quarians is also genocide but that's not the part of the discussion. My whole point, that seems to have derailed everything, is that synthesis means you make a decision for everyone, but killing the geth is also making a decision for them. The difference, is that synthesis makes utopia while destroy leaves everything the same except with a lot forced to die. (Even more if EMS isnt high).

Do you think there were 17 000 000 Quarians when the war with Geth started? Lets be conservative and say that total number of Quarians was 5 billion. 

That means that Geth not only chased the Quarians away from their home, but exterminated most of their population which includes at least 2.5 bilion women children etc...

 

Geth dying, is a side effect of bringing balance to the Galaxy. Geth are just one "people", a few hundred milion up to low bilions in number.

Galaxy is inhabited by trillions or more. 

[Vazgen]

The mass effect universe would disagree. They specifically state that AI is self aware and alive. As opposed to VI. This is a distinction not apparent in many universes (and reality) I'll grant, but why are you trying to apply real world logic to something the game has already said is a thing? Edi is alive. Conscious. Self aware. The lore says so.

Self aware? Yes. Alive? No.

The games leave that question to the players. Observe

Spoiler

Spoiler

Legion video

[Redbelle]

So, the body changes..... Because the Reapers wanted that outcome. And that's all you see because by the time we get to the end, despite hearing what is said the only thing that can be counted on is what you see with your eyes. That peoples entire biology has changed.

 

Well, one aspect that isn't touched on, because if it was true it could never be uttered by those affected by synthesis is what if the conversion affected the mind to?

 

To highlight the extreme change in outlook, both before and after the wave, I point to the solider and the husk that showcases two beings locked in mortal combat with no quarter being asked or given, then the wave hits and they both stop.

 

.......Why did they stop?

 

What was it about the wave that caused two people engaged in a fight to the death to stop trying to kill the other? It could be argued that the husk was reaper tech and thus reprogrammed by the wave, but that shouldn't have stopped the doomed soldier hyped on adrenaline from seeing a break, diving for a gun and shooting it down. But if the husk wasn't affected why didn't it pop back up and continue where it left off trying to claw the soldier to pieces?

 

The wave strikes me as having an affect on the mind as well as the body. In the instant the body was changed the mind was also altered to recognize like for like beings, which everyone is after the wave, as people they don't want to harm. So really, I see Synthesis as the worst ending due to it essentially being a state that only came about via the use of mind alteration that smacks of re-education via the violation of the body so that after the wave hits, people will say they are fine with the change..... because they are incapable of thinking anything except what was instilled in them after the change.

 

To me Synthesis is the removal of free will and the right to decide for yourself. It essentially lobotomizes the part of the brain that decides what the person likes and doesn't like while erasing prejudice thinking. Which on the surface is good thing.... But really, the Reapers were genocidal killing machines that killed many. Liquidized hundreds of thousands..... And somehow, the galaxy, the whole galaxy, is okay with with them having that history.

 

Seeing as war crimes are no longer a thing in the Synthesized galaxy because in the end, no one wants to raise the issue..... I'm going with mind manipulation in that the mind has been redeveloped according to how the Catalyst wanted all life in the galaxy to be. No longer capable of those things that it believed was the root cause of conflict between orgs and synths that had the added benefit of stopping all conflict.... And that's the scary part. That all life is now as the Cat prefers based on its shaky unproven logic. And that to get it's Utopia, all a person has to sacrifice is their mind and body to 'The System' and live according to another set of values while thinking anothers desired set of thoughts.

[Undead Han]

Saying synthesis forces people is a bit dumb really. Destroy forces the geth to die. Control forces the reapers to be controlled and gives Shepard control of the galaxy if he ever wishes it. Synthesis forces utopia. What was he supposed to do? Say "I'm sorry Starchild, I need to pause the reapers for a few years so I can convene the galaxy and ask them if immortality, peace, and happiness at very little expense is alright with them." Synthesis appears to do little to change peoples personalities or identities, merely physical makeup.

Shepard had to make a choice. A choice to force genocide, betray his ideals and side with TIMs ideals, or create paradise. And with the "forcing" fallacy out of the way, utopia is the correct option.

 

Destroy isn't genocide. Or at least it isn't so long as the destruction of the Geth is an unintended side effect. It counts as genocide if Shepard fully desires the elimination of the Geth, but then if that was the case, why not side with the Quarians at Rannoch?

 

In order for anyone to be guilty of genocide there has to be some intent. With Destroy, at least for most people's Shepards, the destruction of the Geth is more likely to be a case of horrific collateral damage rather than something that was intended. My Shepard didn't want to destroy the Geth. But he also wasn't willing to lost the war and allow the mass murdering A.I. responsible for countless extinction cycles to continue to exist as galactic overlord. Synthesis requires trusting an entity responsible for annihilation of entire civilizations, and the current ongoing attempt to destroy yours, to finally play nice and stop its mass murdering ways.

 

Realistically the Catalyst has probably also killed your relatives by that point. Think about how large extended families are. Think Shepard didn't have any aunts or uncles or cousins and such that were on Earth or colony words invaded by the Reapers? This is an entity that probably turned your own family members into husks. It is also responsible for the deaths of Anderson, Kaidan/Ashley, Mordin, Thane, and other companion lost throughout the trilogy.

 

The sacrifice of the Geth will be honored in the coming Empire.