342 réponses à ce sujet

[Mihura]

Solas is an old guy that knows more about elven culture than any other person in the Inquisition. It is easy to be accepting when you know what is really up. He still gave the orb to Cory that resulted with the death or a "couple" of people and the almost end of the world. Solas also uses you for his plans and the Inquisition resources.

Sera is not perfect sure but a lot more honest than him, she is young and still needs to resolve some internal conflicts. What I can say is that the elven romances sucked for elves lol

[S.W.]

ugh. how long before this thread turns into *another* red crossing argument, do you reckon?

 

but anyway.

 

I only play non-human characters as a rule, and I found playing through a Dalish quizzy quite satisfying for all the reasons you've listed. You've likely never been around so many humans in your life for so long. You're thrown into an environment which you don't like the people, and the people don't like you. You're constantly trying to steer a ship completely out of your hands - as much as you'd like to tell yourself this is just about offing Corypheus, it's really as much about restoring the Chantry and empowering existing structures which favour humans and not elves in the long run. You're constantly being thrown challenges to your own faith as well - ie. all the elven lore stuff, and also meeting a number of elves outside of the dalish who don't look upon them so rosily.

 

It's a real challenge to role play and it makes it fun.

 

The fact you get the "Property of *insert Elven deity name here*" tattoo when it is a voluntary ceremony means no matter what, you are/were Pro-Dalish. If you later are skeptical, it just makes the character look like a hypocrite. 

 

I think you really underestimate how much religious custom in tightly-knit communities is a mandatory part of belonging to said community. If you said no, you'd be eventually forced to leave, regardless of how young you were. (and why would you say no, when you don't know or expect anything better? It's a hard thing to leave your entire family, clan, way of living, completely behind where chances are you'll just end up in a city slum).

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

I think you really underestimate how much religious custom in tightly-knit communities is a mandatory part of belonging to said community. If you said no, you'd be eventually forced to leave, regardless of how young you were. (and why would you say no, when you don't know or expect anything better? It's a hard thing to leave your entire family, clan, way of living, completely behind where chances are you'll just end up in a city slum).

We are also told by the Dalish that they are tolerant of their people who don't get it, seeing it is not something they should not be rushed into so those who don't want to are seen as simply not ready yet. They'll be treated like children, yes and be denied things adults do but that is the extent of it. 

[S.W.]

We are also told by the Dalish that they are tolerant of their people who don't get it, seeing it is not something they should not be rushed into so those who don't want to are seen as simply not ready yet. They'll be treated like children, yes and be denied things adults do but that is the extent of it. 

 

Out of interest, where are we told that?

[Sah291]

Heh, I wish I could "like" this post twice. I agree, and this is why I love Lavellan so much. It was an emotional roller coaster from the moment she woke up in chains surrounded angry humans, from the moment she stood out on the balcony, all alone, after Solas left her.

 

I would have, obviously, liked more race specific reactivity and chances to respond to events-- and I think they really should have left the clan dying part out if they weren't going to mention it at all. It's immersion breaking. But, I actually like how they didn't go easy on the Dalish. It made the game darker and more dramatic. You can ~feel~ the frustration every step of the way, and that sense of being told everything you ever believed was a lie, people talking down to you, your ancestors disappointing you, and your gods letting you down, etc. You don't feel like things came easily. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Out of interest, where are we told that?

If I recall correctly, from Lanaya or one of the others brings it up if you ask about Cammen. 

 

We also see Vallaslin-less Dalish in the clans in Origins and DA2 who aren't really mistreated or ostracized. 

[Nehn]

I love you and every single word you've written
However, at least Bioware gave us a chance to explore multiple elves ruins. They're beautiful and fasinating, especially the one hidden underground in the Exalted Plains. And Weekes gave us the opportunity to sleep with one of the pantheon (/cough though it wasn't openly portrayed) ...
I completely forgot Solas condemns he Dalish, but at we're given the opportunity to change his mind. So that's one less.
Let's hope Bioware stops sh!tting on the elves (Dalish particularly) in the future.
Before anyone says how wrong they got everything, at least the Dalish elves TRIED to preserve their fragmented lore and culture. They don't deserve to be slaughtered for that or anything they've done.
Fanfiction sadly is the solace for every Lavellan.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Before anyone says how wrong they got everything, at least the Dalish elves TRIED to preserve their fragmented lore and culture.

Considering how that culture was, the Dalish trying to preserve it is not a positive. 

[Cee]

I'm not saying that he's deluded, I simply say that he cares about it - it probably wouldn't be the first thing that came to his mind (with which he tries to cover the fact that he tried to say something else, first), if it didn't bother him in the first place. 

 

In fact, it could be argued - pretty effectively I think - that Lavellan choosing to remove it is more a gift from her to him rather than the other way around. While he respects her decision to leave the vallaslin, we can see how happy he is if she opts to remove it.

 

He's offering her something that represents one of his most treasured values - freedom. It's not for him, though it stems from his own values about slavery. My Lavellan removed hers because of what she learned and learning that her people were wrong and these markings went against their core value never to submit again.

 

To me, it is an intimate act and pretty much the most sincere, valued gift Solas could offer aside from the truth he came to tell. He is proud if she removes it but if she chooses to keep her vallaslin, he is also happy. He loves her just as she is and she's gained more knowledge, even if you declare the meaning has changed over time (which can and does happen with cultural symbols over time). Either way, he's offering her knowledge and free choice, which are meaningful to him, yes, but none of it is "for" him.

[Mihura]

Considering how that culture was, the Dalish trying to preserve it is not a positive. 

 

But that can be said about any culture in Thedas, actually the Avvar seem far superior when comes to magic knowledge and acceptance, also no slaves, no big economic dependencies from trade or organized military factions.

The same cannot be said about the "modern" Tevinter or the extreme philosophies that come from the Qun.

[Junebug]

One thing: Solas give a choice, and never force Lavellan to take away the markings. He is just glad that she make the choice to keep or take away the markings while knowing what she have on her face. he isn't Sera, that can't accept a Dalish may believe at what they saw in the Temple, and not go "la la la la all deamons la la la".

 

Solas very cleary don't care one way or another.

This is true and OP does acknowledge his intentions may be pure but it's somehting that's very hard to swallow when the Dalish and yourself suffers from diaspora. If you decide not to, you now have to live with the fact that you have slave markings on your face which is also not easy to forget about.

 

It's not about Solas not caring about her—he does care very deeply. It's about the weight of the decision she has to make after he drops the bombshell on her shoulders—live the rest of your life with slave markings and be reminded of that fact when you see it on every clan member's face or take it away and strip yourself of the symbol of everything you ever knew about your culture and possibly have your clan resent you?

[Deztyn]

I haven't read all of this thread, so some of this had likely been brought up already.

Couple of things, in no real order.

--Morrigan isn't some random human mage, she's the daughter of Mythal, even if she doesn't know it. It makes sense that she knows more than the average person about elven lore. Even so, there's a lot more that she doesn't know, which is obvious if you take Solas with you to the Temple of Mythal.

-- The fact that the Dalish are ignorant about a lot of Elven history is not new. That was made clear in Origins. Their entire shtick is trying to reclaim their history when they don't actually have written records. Of course they'll be wrong about a lot of things.

-- From the very beginning, it's been said that the elves were responsible for starting the war with a massacre at Red Crossing. Some just chose to believe that the human version of history was bigoted and wrong. It wasn't.

--I don't really see the three mages per clan rule as a hard retcon. They do still send mages to other clans, but if there is no other clan to send them to... that's when things get awkward. And not all clans do this.

-- One thing I appreciated about the scene with Solas is that you get the option to tell him that it doesn't matter what the markings used to mean, the meaning they hold now it's what's important.

That whole scene is just Solas wimping out on telling you the truth about himself and picking a plausible alternate topic of conversation. It's something that probably has bothered him all along, but he's only saying it now because he's backed himself into a corner and has to say something meaningful. I imagine for Solas it's a lot like a holocaust survivor dating someone who tattooed a swastika on their forehead under the mistaken belief it's a symbol of good fortune and nothing else. Sure it's technically true, but dear lord is it uncomfortable to look at.

[Sah291]

It's not about Solas not caring about her—he does care very deeply. It's about the weight of the decision she has to make after he drops the bombshell on her shoulders—live the rest of your life with slave markings and be reminded of that fact when you see it on every clan member's face or take it away and strip yourself of the symbol of everything you ever knew about your culture and possibly have your clan resent you?

 

It's a very poignant question though, isn't it? I'm glad it's in the game. It's challenging, no matter which choice you make, and it would be easier for Solas to just not say anything. But would that be kinder?

[Br3admax]

So the fact that more and more story revolves about mysterious elven past DOESN'T constitute massive potential there?

If I have to be Dalish? No. I have standards. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

The elven goddess of motherhood turning out to be a horrible mother did make me laugh. 

[S.W.]

-- The fact that the Dalish are ignorant about a lot of Elven history is not new. That was made clear in Origins. Their entire shtick is trying to reclaim their history when they don't actually have written records. Of course they'll be wrong about a lot of things.

 

Aye - the point was made repeatedly by Velanna when she talks about how the elves have no legends or stories to share from generation to generation. However, there's not much reason to assume that what little the Dalish do know of the elves - whether from the Dales, or from the ancient Empire - is completely wrong. What's assumed in DA:O and DA2 is that the Dalish have bits and pieces of a puzzle with a lot of gaps, and the gaps are the problem. What we learn in DA:I is the bits and pieces of the puzzle the Dalish *do* have are so totally out of order and misplaced that they are wrong.

 

Not entirely sure about the 'no written records' part - most people in Thedas seem to be literate, and we've chanced upon items such as books of elven prayers etc. on our travels, although you're right in noting the big emphasis on oral culture amongst the Dalish. But I think the problem is more due to having no libraries, museums, archives, or *permanent* storage of any kind. Because the Dalish are disparate, split up into clans which move separately of another, and are always on the move, they're vulnerable to being wiped out quite easily, let alone just losing documents (hence lots of oral literature and history - I think that's a symptom, though, of a bigger problem). Having no permanent home in the long term has destroyed the Dalish.

[S.W.]

I should add that I hate how much these sort of discussions involve people splitting off into pro or anti dalish camps.

 

I enjoy playing elves and I think the revelations in DA:I add a lot more nuance and intrigue and bite to what were just folk tales. I'm happy to accept that elven society had flaws - and still has flaws, as it makes their history more intriguing, rather than less. I think splitting off into clans with no permanent home and limited communication is, whilst romantic, and given human animosity and their tendency towards racially-motivated arson and/or murder, understandable, is still not going to improve the conditions for elves. I still like playing elven characters and I think anyone who damns the impoverished individuals in slums or in clans based on the catastrophic decisions of petty gods and lords and ladies in the Dales is perhaps missing how complicated relationships between society and individuals get, and how little power we have over the state of our nations. I don't think disapproval of the ancient elven empire, of the Dales, and of the Dalish now, means that you can't also wish improved conditions for the elves - that doesn't need to contradict.

[Ariella]

The elven goddess of motherhood turning out to be a horrible mother did make me laugh.

From the look on her face when Morrigan throws that at her I get the feeling Flemeth didn't want things like that but didn't have a choice. Yavana seems to know a lot More about mom than Morrigan does. I've only read Silent Grove though.

[Mihura]

From the look on her face when Morrigan throws that at her I get the feeling Flemeth didn't want things like that but didn't have a choice. Yavana seems to know a lot More about mom than Morrigan does. I've only read Silent Grove though.

 

I think there is a lot that Morrigan does not know but than again life with Flemeth must not be easy.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

But that can be said about any culture in Thedas, actually the Avvar seem far superior when comes to magic knowledge and acceptance, also no slaves, no big economic dependencies from trade or organized military factions.

The same cannot be said about the "modern" Tevinter or the extreme philosophies that come from the Qun.

I agree, but at least some cultures are trying to create better cultures rather than bring back bad ones. 

[Ariella]

I think there is a lot that Morrigan does not know but than again life with Flemeth must not be easy.

Oh, I have no trouble believing that considering, but a part of me wonders if Flemeth went out of her way to be hard because she felt she needed to so Morrigan would be who SHE needed to. The line from DA 2 about Flemeth's raising of Morrigan comes to mind.

[Deztyn]

Aye - the point was made repeatedly by Velanna when she talks about how the elves have no legends or stories to share from generation to generation. However, there's not much reason to assume that what little the Dalish do know of the elves - whether from the Dales, or from the ancient Empire - is completely wrong. What's assumed in DA:O and DA2 is that the Dalish have bits and pieces of a puzzle with a lot of gaps, and the gaps are the problem. What we learn in DA:I is the bits and pieces of the puzzle the Dalish *do* have are so totally out of order and misplaced that they are wrong.

 

I agree with this 100%.

The point I was trying to make is that it's an inevitable consequence of their culture being ripped from them over a thousand years ago. It would seem more strange to me to discover that everything the elves always thought about their history was completely true. So I don't consider the various revelations in Inquisition any kind of retcon, or a deliberate slight against them.
 

Not entirely sure about the 'no written records' part - most people in Thedas seem to be literate, and we've chanced upon items such as books of elven prayers etc. on our travels, although you're right in noting the big emphasis on oral culture amongst the Dalish. But I think the problem is more due to having no libraries, museums, archives, or *permanent* storage of any kind. Because the Dalish are disparate, split up into clans which move separately of another, and are always on the move, they're vulnerable to being wiped out quite easily, let alone just losing documents (hence lots of oral literature and history - I think that's a symptom, though, of a bigger problem). Having no permanent home in the long term has destroyed the Dalish.

 
I should clarify that I didn't mean the Dalish aren't literate. Just that there are very few surviving records from before the rise of the Tevinter Imperium.

[leaguer of one]

True, but they would not have been a leader which is what the Human and Dalish Inq's have in common. And while the Dwarven and Qunari Inq's are only mercs, this would give the Elves another origin story. And in fantasy, there can be only one....

If they can make an oxman the leader they can make anyone the leader.

[Ariella]

Junebug,

 

I'm wondering if you've played JoH yet?

[midnight tea]

He's offering her something that represents one of his most treasured values - freedom. It's not for him, though it stems from his own values about slavery. My Lavellan removed hers because of what she learned and learning that her people were wrong and these markings went against their core value never to submit again.

 

To me, it is an intimate act and pretty much the most sincere, valued gift Solas could offer aside from the truth he came to tell. He is proud if she removes it but if she chooses to keep her vallaslin, he is also happy. He loves her just as she is and she's gained more knowledge, even if you declare the meaning has changed over time (which can and does happen with cultural symbols over time). Either way, he's offering her knowledge and free choice, which are meaningful to him, yes, but none of it is "for" him.

 

He's mostly covering the fact that he was supposed to tell her something else.

 

Also, even IF this was a 'gift of freedom' for her, vallaslin removal is still a larger gift from Lavellan to him. Why?

 

Consider this:

a.) she trusts him enough that she chooses to believe that he speaks the truth.

b.) she lets him fire an unknown spell that directly affects her face.

c.) last but not least - she lets him remove symbols that are important for the Dalish, which may bring resentment later, in case she chose to extend her hand to them or even contact her own clan. 

 

To sum up - what Lavellan does is she offers him a gift of ultimate trust. I don't think there's any greater gift she could give, especially considering that she doesn't really know that much about him, probably patiently waiting for him to actually open up a little more by himself.

 

Which is why it's so soul-crushing to see that moments later he does a 180 and pulls a rug from under her, right when she's at her most vulnerable and needs some emotional support before final battle with Corypheus, instead of the massive heartache she receives.

 

And don't get me wrong - I like Solas as a character and this romance a lot. I love all the drama cookies it brings *yum* But it doesn't change the fact that what he did to her was awkward at best and ingeniously cruel at worst.