342 réponses à ce sujet

[Milan92]

I still think human male mage is the best for the Inquisitor

 

Yes.

[harutora]

Did any of you actually read the red crossing codex?

Spoiler

it did not start with elves killing a human, it started with chantry telling villagers that elves are kidnapping humans. Then the villagers killed(most likely raped her a hundred times over before killing) a female elven scout who went too close to the road leading to red crossing, the emerald knight who recovered her body was acting strange. After that it was found out, that emerald knight was in love with a human and was secretly meeting the human(now you know why the scout was too close to village) and then leaves with the human to accept the maker. from this point everything went to pot when elves decided to bring him back and ask him if he indeed betrayed them. that fool knew why the scout was murdered but decided to keep it secret so that he could keep his own neck intact and could sleep with a human.

 

 

So yeah you can say it was elves who dug their own grave. 

[Qun00]

Yeeaaah, there's a bit of overreacting here.

Depending on what dialogue option you choose when you ask Solas about elven culture, he apologises.

And there are a few instances where he acknowledges the value of the Dalish, like when he asks you if he's misjudged them (high approval, elven Inquisitor).

I also recall getting a comment from Solas when exploring the Exalted Plains, "The Dalish remember fragments of fragments, but that is more than most".

As for the rest of the Inner Circle, there is Josephine who asks the Herald if s/he has been mistreated by people at Haven for being an elf.

And finally, Dorian tells you he hopes the history between Tevinter and the elves won't cause any enmity between you two.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Yeeaaah, there's a bit of overreacting here.

Depending on what dialogue option you choose when you ask Solas about elven culture, he apologises.

And there are a few instances where he acknowledges the value of the Dalish, like when he asks you if he's misjudged them (high approval, elven Inquisitor).

I also recall getting a comment from Solas when exploring the Exalted Plains, "The Dalish remember fragments of fragments, but that is more than most".

As for the rest of the Inner Circle, there is Josephine who asks the Herald if s/he has been mistreated by people at Haven for being an elf.

And finally, Dorian tells you he hopes the history between Tevinter and the elves won't cause any enmity between you two.

 

Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised by how tolerant the Inquisition is toward Lavellan even at the very beginning.  That's probably for gameplay reasons; after all, if they're racist jerkbags to the PC, the player's not going to like them  And the Inquisition really has no choice; they're stuck with whomever fell out of the rift, so they may as well try to get along.  It was certainly less contentious playing as Lavellan in DA:I than, say, playing as Tabris in DA:O.

[Qun00]

--Morrigan isn't some random human mage, she's the daughter of Mythal

Huge stretch, there.

[Deztyn]

Agreed with the OP for the most part about it being the best story, though I saw most of the victim-blaming as "in universe."  Destroying a homeland for Red Crossing was grossly disproportionate at best, and I thought that came through.  Dorian's embarrassment whenever he realized that what his people had stolen from the elves, right down to their magical techniques was priceless.  The abuse heaped onto the modern elves for supposed ancient crimes also seemed grossly out of proportion, but again I interpreted that as "in universe."

 
I will not turn this into another Exalted March thread...

 
I will not...


Will not...


... oh, hell.
 
The elves homeland didn't get destroyed over Red Crossing, that is a gross over simplification. The Dales were conquered because the elves were the unprovoked aggressors in a war that lasted a decade, during which they utterly refused to yield until the bitter end.
 
This does not excuse the centuries of oppression that followed. But let's not pretend that aside from Red Crossing, the innocent elves did nothing but sit back in Halamshiral minding their own business until the big bad chantry came and destroyed everything.
 

As for the gods, the elves can now say their gods existed for certain, which puts them one up on the Andrasteans
 
I also liked the the reveal about the gods in ancient times.  The fluffy-bunny Dalish gods never seemed convincing.  I kind of gathered that they retconned their history.  As for Solas, he's imaginably bitter.  He thought he was doing the elves a favour by destroying their gods, and now they use his name as a curse-word.  Worse, deep down it likely stings worse because he knows they're right.  His decision destroyed them, and after the first playhrough I interpreted his anti-Dalish stuff to defensiveness and misdirected guilt.

Honestly, I don't think you need to attribute his feelings about the Dalish to his own guilt.

As a culture they are supposed to be dedicated to recovering their forgotten past. Yet Solas tells us that when he offered to share his knowledge with them he was turned away--violently. And from what we've seen in the books and games this isn't a-typical behavior. The Dalish are not very accepting of anyone not Dalish. Even other elves.

Solas values knowledge above all, you could probably go through the whole game making every decision that he disapproves of and still earn his friendship just by asking questions. The Dalish he's encountered are being willfully ignorant. I think from his point of view, his scorn is justified.
 

I've played all the origins now, and I like the Lavellan story best.  It will likely be my canon, when I finally do it.

 
I'm torn between between my human mage and a Dalish First that romanced Solas. It will probably depend on what they do with Inquisition's DLC.
 

Did any of you actually read the red crossing codex?

Spoiler

it did not start with elves killing a human, it started with chantry telling villagers that elves are kidnapping humans. Then the villagers killed(most likely raped her a hundred times over before killing) a female elven scout who went too close to the road leading to red crossing, the emerald knight who recovered her body was acting strange. After that it was found out, that emerald knight was in love with a human and was secretly meeting the human(now you know why the scout was too close to village) and then leaves with the human to accept the maker. from this point everything went to pot when elves decided to bring him back and ask him if he indeed betrayed them. that fool knew why the scout was murdered but decided to keep it secret so that he could keep his own neck intact and could sleep with a human.

 
 
So yeah you can say it was elves who dug their own grave.

 
Wow.
 
Just...
 
I have no words to properly express...
 
That is certainly an interesting reading of a codex entry that is written as an apology from the Emerald Knights to the young "fool" in question.
 
You're trolling, right? Please be a troll.
 

Huge stretch, there.

 
Would you prefer it if I had said, "Daughter of a centuries old human woman possessed by a fragment of the spirit of the ancient elven goddess Mythal"? Bit of an awkward sentence, even for me. The point is the same either way. It is very likely that Morrigan had access to sources of information that most others don't. And she's still not nearly the expert that she thinks she is.

[harutora]

 

Wow.
 
Just...
 
I have no words to properly express...
 
That is certainly an interesting reading of a codex entry that is written as an apology from the Emerald Knights to the young "fool" in question.
 
You're trolling, right? Please be a troll.

 

He knew why that scout was following him and got caught by humans and was killed. He knew what his fellow knights were thinking and wanted to do, but for his own selfish reason he left with a human without even explaining to his fellow elves, which ultimately initiated the end of his homeland. death of that scout was on his head, death of his lover was on his head and ultimately destruction of his homeland was on his head, if he said outright : "hey guys, i am banging a human, she was following me and got caught, it is my fault, judge me how you see fit"; do you think the situation would have escalated to the point it did? the codex which is an apology letter written and signed by last of the emerald knights who wrote an apology letter to their brother and his human lover, to someone who betrayed them during a crisis.So i think the elves were more than reasonable enough to understand his situation and so that knight was a fool who only cared about his own selfish happiness and nothing more, which ruined an entire nation, an entire culture. if you want i can link  you the entire codex so you can read it over and over but i am 200% positive you will still call me a troll then.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It's not exactly fair to label the elves unprovoked aggressors. It's not like Orlais or the humans had no part to play in the tensions or deteriorating relations. The Chantry was spreading lies about the elves (before and after Red Crossing) that ended up provoking the murder of their citizens and Orlais had been fighting border skirmishes with the Dales for years.

[Deztyn]

He knew why that scout was following him and got caught by humans and was killed. He knew what his fellow knights were thinking and wanted to do, but for his own selfish reason he left with a human without even explaining to his fellow elves, which ultimately initiated the end of his homeland. death of that scout was on his head, death of his lover was on his head and ultimately destruction of his homeland was on his head, if he said outright : "hey guys, i am banging a human, she was following me and got caught, it is my fault, judge me how you see fit"; do you think the situation would have escalated to the point it did? the codex which is an apology letter written and signed by last of the emerald knights who wrote an apology letter to their brother and his human lover, to someone who betrayed them during a crisis.So i think the elves were more than reasonable enough to understand his situation and so that knight was a fool who only cared about his own selfish happiness and nothing more, which ruined an entire nation, an entire culture. if you want i can link  you the entire codex so you can read it over and over but i am 200% positive you will still call me a troll then.

 

I've read it.

 

Thanks.

 

Nowhere does it say that Siona's sister was a scout. Nor does it say that she was killed following Elandrin. It certainly never says she was raped a hundred times. It might make for an interesting fanfic, but it's not in the codex entry.

 

It's not exactly fair to label the elves unprovoked aggressors. It's not like Orlais or the humans had no part to play in the tensions or deteriorating relations. The Chantry was spreading lies about the elves (before and after Red Crossing) that ended up provoking the murder of their citizens and Orlais had been fighting border skirmishes with the Dales for years.

 

Red Crossing itself was an unprovoked massacre of a human village.

 

And I've said this before, but there's no reason to assume the Chantry was lying about the abductions and sacrifices. It's entirely possible that those things really did happen, even if the elves were not responsible. I'm pretty sure that blood magic was around in the Glory Age.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

And I've said this before, but there's no reason to assume the Chantry was lying about the abductions and sacrifices. It's entirely possible that those things really did happen, even if the elves were not responsible. I'm pretty sure that blood magic was around in the Glory Age.

 

The Chantry was claiming that the elves were specifically responsible for it. Dalish don't approve of blood magic and the Chantry has a history of distorting the truth when it comes to elves, such as decanonizing the Canticle of Shartan or falsely claiming the "attack" on Red Crossing involved sacrificing it's people to their gods. It's common knowledge that human society is filled with a great deal of false rumors about the evils of Dalish Elves. Leliana and Josephine both tell a Dalish PC that they've heard stories of elves commonly stealing and sacrificing children and so forth.

 

The notion of elves sacrificing innocents to earn favor of their heathen gods is very close to what the average ignorant Andrastian peasant might fear rather than what the Dales would be likely to support. It's behavior that the old Imperium was very regularly engaged in, and would be convenient and simple for the Chantry  to conflate their behavior with another foreign mage friendly nation that worships ancient gods instead of the Maker, regardless of how little sense it would make in reality.

 

I'm not an anti Chantry player, but that claim in particular claim is much more reminiscent of propaganda than any actual understanding of the situation. 

[Deztyn]

The Chantry was claiming that the elves were specifically responsible for it. Dalish don't approve of blood magic and the Chantry has a history of distorting the truth when it comes to elves, such as decanonizing the Canticle of Shartan or falsely claiming the "attack" on Red Crossing involved sacrificing it's people to their gods. It's common knowledge that human society is filled with a great deal of false rumors about the evils of Dalish Elves. Leliana and Josephine both tell a Dalish PC that they've heard stories of elves commonly stealing and sacrificing children and so forth.
 
The notion of elves sacrificing innocents to earn favor of their heathen gods is very close to what the average ignorant Andrastian peasant might fear rather than what the Dales would be likely to support. It's behavior that the old Imperium was very regularly engaged in, and would be convenient and simple for the Chantry  to conflate their behavior with another foreign mage friendly nation that worships ancient gods instead of the Maker, regardless of how little sense it would make in reality.
 
I'm not an anti Chantry player, but that claim in particular claim is much more reminiscent of propaganda than any actual understanding of the situation.

 
 
Uh.
 
Sure.
 
The Dalish never, ever use Blood Magic.
 
You seem to be confusing the Glory Age with the Dragon Age. You're referring to a history that doesn't exist at the time of Red Crossing.
 
It is possible that they Chantry believed they were. It could have been a simple misunderstanding rather than a deliberate smear campaign.

It is possible that they actually were. You are assuming that no elf was responsible because you don't want an elf to be responsible.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Man.  Fighting over elves is the new Godwin's Law around here.  Finally, something that replaces the mage/templar thing.

[Sifr]

 
The Dalish never, ever use Blood Magic.

 

The Dalish never, ever use Blood Magic... (and have it work out for them).

 

[Torgette]

If I have to be Dalish? No. I have standards. 

 

They should make the next game's protagonist a preset dalish elf just to mess with you. 

[Br3admax]

Please. I'd respect BioWare if they actually made me be a character for once. That's not to say I've never, EVER, done the Dalish thing before. I started one in Origins that I ended right out of the Origin, and one I've for Inquisition I've been sitting on for months now. Some story-based incentive that doesn't involve crap and romance is what I need. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

 
 
Uh.
 
Sure.
 
The Dalish never, ever use Blood Magic.
 
You seem to be confusing the Glory Age with the Dragon Age. You're referring to a history that doesn't exist at the time of Red Crossing.
 
It is possible that they Chantry believed they were. It could have been a simple misunderstanding rather than a deliberate smear campaign.

It is possible that they actually were. You are assuming that no elf was responsible because you don't want an elf to be responsible.

 

In all three cases you named, the use of blood magic was against what their people valued and condemned by rest of the elves around them. And I'd say they're depicted using blood magic much less often than Circle Mages. The fact Solas says they generally frown on blood magic implies they don't use it often.

 

You are assuming the Chantry isn't lying because you don't want them to be lying. But I'd say there's also a long history about the Chantry covering up the truth about one thing or another, be it Shartan or the massacres during the Qunari Wars.

[Colonelkillabee]

Huge stretch, there.

How is this a stretch, Mythal is Flemeth now.

[raging_monkey]

How is this a stretch, Mythal is Flemeth now.

yup pretty obviously

[Deztyn]

In all three cases you named, the use of blood magic was against what their people valued and condemned by rest of the elves around them. And I'd say they're depicted using blood magic much less often than Circle Mages. The fact Solas says they generally frown on blood magic implies they don't use it often.

 

You are assuming the Chantry isn't lying because you don't want them to be lying. But I'd say there's also a long history about the Chantry covering up the truth about one thing or another, be it Shartan or the massacres during the Qunari Wars.

 

I'm assuming nothing.

 

I'm suggesting that the possibility exists.

 

You don't seem willing to entertain the idea that people were being abducted and sacrificed at all.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It's not impossible. It's just extremely unlikely in this case.

[BubbleDncr]

I did the Lavellan playthrough, Solas romance and all, as my first playthrough, and I'm glad I did, I don't think any other race/gender combination as as much potential to get emotionally invested in the story. 

 

I do wish they did a better just at some of the things mentioned in the OP. The main things that stick out to me are meeting Mythal (I was extremely frustrated I couldn't talk to Solas about it, even tho he just broke my heart), and loosing my tattoos - I guess Sera noticed when I talked to her right away, but Josephine only noticed like 6 conversations later and I don't think I ever got the Cassandra banter about it. So it just felt really weird that no one was reacting to my face being completely different.

 

Temple of Mythal, I did feel like the dumbest Dalish elf on the face of the earth, but I figured that one they did that way for players who were new to the franchise and wouldn't know all that stuff. Tho there was probably a way they could have written Lavellan's lines that were both explanatory to people who didn't know the lore and kept her knowing about her people. But then the cutscenes would probably be too different from all the other races, and thus, too much work. 

[Sifr]

How is this a stretch, Mythal is Flemeth now.

 

Even less of a stretch when you consider that post-endgame, we're left with the very real possibility that;

 

Spoiler

Morrigan is not only Mythal's daughter, but Mythal herself now?

[midnight tea]

Even less of a stretch when you consider that post-endgame, we're left with the very real possibility that;

 

Spoiler

Morrigan is not only Mythal's daughter, but Mythal herself now?

 

Spoiler

We don't know if she's prepared to inherit her essence, or basically the godhood of Mythal - basically the power, but not the personality/being. That's a possibility as well, because - for all we know - the person known as Flemeth is probably dead.

[Sifr]

Spoiler

We don't know if she's prepared to inherit her essence, or basically the godhood of Mythal - basically the power, but not the personality/being. That's a possibility as well, because - for all we know - the person known as Flemeth is probably dead.

 

Spoiler

My suspicion is aside from the power and essence of Mythal, all that survives of "Flemeth" from each incarnation to the next is the memories of the previous host, retained and passed down via Mythal.

 

Kinda like the joined Trills such as Dax from Star Trek, where "Dax" is the name of the symbiote and is taken by each new host, but aside from gaining the memories and experiences of their predecessor, each Dax end up being vastly different from the one who came before.

 

The real Flemeth has been dead for centuries, so Morrigan's mother was just the last to inherit the name and the memories of the original, as well as the urge to correct the "betrayal" that she suffered, upon accepting the essence of Mythal.

 

Makes me wonder whether Morrigan might retain her name or take the title of "Flemeth" for herself?

[S.W.]

CALLED IT.

 

*ahem*

Spoiler

isn't it bloody obvious that both parties overreacted to events because of mutual fear, distrust, and dislike (which were grounded in a number of factors, including - elven isolationism, orlesian imperial expansionism, racism, the events of the second blight)?

 

I mean, I'm not going to engage in the argument about which side's resentment was more reasonable and which side's response was more in proportion. Because, I'm too bloody tired of these arguments and literally give no fucks when the Dales were likely hardly the worst the Elves have ever wrought on our poor dear Thedas.

 

I've only played through two different Lavellens so far - how does a human playthrough of all the weird elfy **** near the end of the game compare, RP wise? I want to do a dotes-on-the-chantry, faithful human Inquisitor to romance Cass or Cullen, and I wonder how much it'd go over their head.