342 réponses à ce sujet

[S.W.]

Spoiler

My suspicion is aside from the power and essence of Mythal, all that survives of "Flemeth" from each incarnation to the next is the memories of the previous host, retained and passed down via Mythal.

 

Kinda like the joined Trills such as Dax from Star Trek, where "Dax" is the name of the symbiote and is taken by each new host, but aside from gaining the memories and experiences of their predecessor, each Dax end up being vastly different from the one who came before.

 

The real Flemeth has been dead for centuries, so Morrigan's mother was just the last to inherit the name and the memories of the original, as well as the urge to correct the "betrayal" that she suffered, upon accepting the essence of Mythal.

 

Makes me wonder whether Morrigan might retain her name or take the title of "Flemeth" for herself?

 

I agree with this theory. I would imagine it'd cover some of the inconsistency when it comes to Flemythal - i.e. she's 'nudged' history more often at times than not, depending on her personality, but I think she can still stitch together plans over a long period of time because of memory-transfer. I think understanding Mythal as just a fragment of a god would also mean that there would be mortal limits to Morrigan's power when she would have been hypothetically gifted with Mythal's power - hence why we've not seen a 'return of Mythal' in the proper sense.

[BloodKaiden]

I love my Ruven Lavellan and agree with a lot of what the OP has said. Orginally he was suppose to be my second play through after beating the game. Sadly, since I know what is to come to my poor First, I've set him aside in favor of playing as Sheva, my intended third play female fatale team. Almost finished with her then I'll have to steel myself for Ruven, Solas, Iron Bull, and Blackwall pain.

[BraveVesperia]

I would really love a dlc with an in-depth quest relating to each background. Political/family intrigue for Trevelyan, Valos-Kas stuff for Adaar, blackwall/issues with the Carta for Cadash.

 

And most importantly for this thread - clan stuff for Lavellan. Something like the war table quests acted out in a dlc. Lavellan goes to Wycome to help their clan, and depending on your choices, the odds would be stacked against you or in your favour. The clan might still die, but there would be emotional weight and importance to the choice and consequence. Or Lavellan goes to Wycome to deal with the fallout from the war table choices. Lots of roleplay opportunities, opinions from companions. Ooh, I'd love it!

[dragonflight288]

I would really love a dlc with an in-depth quest relating to each background. Political/family intrigue for Trevelyan, Valos-Kas stuff for Adaar, blackwall/issues with the Carta for Cadash.

And most importantly for this thread - clan stuff for Lavellan. Something like the war table quests acted out in a dlc. Lavellan goes to Wycome to help their clan, and depending on your choices, the odds would be stacked against you or in your favour. The clan might still die, but there would be emotional weight and importance to the choice and consequence. Or Lavellan goes to Wycome to deal with the fallout from the war table choices. Lots of roleplay opportunities, opinions from companions. Ooh, I'd love it!

That would be awesome! I always felt the background of each race had a decent start when Josephine questions us in Haven, but lacked any real significance to the player outside of head-canon otherwise.

Bioware, please make it happen.

[Qun00]

How is this a stretch, Mythal is Flemeth now.

Not really. She doesn't even identify as Mythal.

Flemeth treats her as a separate entity.

[dragonflight288]

Not really. She doesn't even identify as Mythal.

Flemeth treats her as a separate entity.

Just like the spirit of faith possessing Wynne is a separate entity, just like Anders and Justice are separate entities.

They are separate, but also to a certain degree, they are one.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Flemeth's perception of Mythal seems a little contradictory. Sometimes she refers to Mythal as separate, other times she acts as if they are one and the same. The big question, for me, is whether Mythal still exists outside Flemeth as well. Was the female figure that confronted Corypheus in the Well of Sorrows supposed to be her?

[Mistic]

Yeeaaah, there's a bit of overreacting here.

 

I have to agree. Depending on the playthrough, a Lavellan Inquisitor can end up being very happy about his or her choices.

 

The clan

Ok, the clan can be killed, and the lack of reaction is absurd. But this time, instead of having only survival as the "prize", the ultra-nice Lavellan can solve the "nomads forever" vs "reclaim our homeland" dichotomy by taking a third option and settle in Wycome. A posibility that few even considered before the game.

 

The gods

It can be tiresome to be held as the Herald of another religion but you can discuss religious matters, especially with mother Giselle, and in the end you can prove that your powers aren't from the Maker and set it as the Inquisition's official stance (even if nobody else cares). And you meet one of your gods! Ok, they are not as good or spectacular as the stories say, but still ("My gods are real! Take that, 'myths' and 'aspects of what we call the Maker'!").

 

By the way, a line in the Cullen romance suggests that the “HOLY F*CK  HOLY F*CK HOLY F*CK YOU ARE NEVER GONNA GUESS WHAT I SAW!!!!!!” moment happened at least with him.

 

Arlathan and the Dales

Centuries (in-universe) and years (in fandom) discussing about two of the most important mysteries in elven history ('how come the primitive Tevinters conquered Arlathan if that place was so cool?" and "how did the Orlais-Dales war start?"), and the Inquisitor can solve them. You can share the knowledge about the Dales among your fellow Dalish, so no more mysteries! Look, they send the poor town a halla to say "we're sorry". Isn't that nice? And Dorian will make sure to shame his fellow Tevinters with the truth that the Imperium just scavenged the broken remains of a godless country torn by civil war.

 

Attitudes

I suppose no one seriously expected that just because the Inquisitor is an elf centuries of racism or prejudice would disappear. Nevertheless, the Inquisition is full of great people in that regard. Like Threnn, who will not tolerate any "knife-ear" even before knowing you're the new PR mascot of the team. Or that letter from a worker in Skyhold to his father, chastising him about "our foolish hatreds". The cherry on top is a previous Dalish Warden telling a Dalish Inquisitor that they understand perfectly how tiresome it can be to lead people who don't pay much attention to the fact their leader is Dalish ("This world of the shemlen is a difficult one for our kind", indeed).

 

Ah, so companions like Sera will never like the Dalish? Well, you can't convince everyone. And the fact that the problem is that the Inquisitor is "too elfy" shows that the Dalish background of the PC was acknowledged.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

In terms of "Lavellan angst" the only thing that we learn  or that happens that I think would really bother me or my elf character is the fact that the Creators appear to be real but malevolent. In such a case it wouldn't really matter that they were real beings. She'd probably even prefer to worship the absent Maker instead. 

 

Everything else, being called the Herald of Andraste, being disliked by Sera, learning the origin of Vallasline, is relatively easy to handle. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

In terms of "Lavellan angst" the only thing that we learn  or that happens that I think would really bother me or my elf character is the fact that the Creators appear to be real but malevolent. In such a case it wouldn't really matter that they were real beings. She'd probably even prefer to worship the absent Maker instead. 

 

Everything else, being called the Herald of Andraste, being disliked by Sera, learning the origin of Vallasline, is relatively easy to handle. 

 

There's also being forced into eternal servitude by one of your own gods because you drank that well of elfy knowledge. That's pretty terrible as well. 

 

Honestly, through playing as a Lavellan the game really does seem to stir you towards just saying "screw all this" and going atheist. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There's also being forced into eternal servitude by one of your own gods because you drank that well of elfy knowledge. That's pretty terrible as well. 

 

Honestly, through playing as a Lavellan the game really does seem to stir you towards just saying "screw all this" and going atheist. 

 

That's optional of course. I haven't gotten that far yet with her. But I usually try not to metagame and probably am going to drink from the well. 

[Fredward]

I don't have a problem with the Dalish per se, they have their merits and drawbacks like all the other cultures, BUT! I don't see the point in using 'culture' as an excuse for stagnation. The Dalish are like the dwarves and also a bit like some of the Tevinters and also Corypheus. Constantly obsessing over preservation and the glories of the past and not doing anything in the now. In fact their only raison d'etre seems to be carting around history so that when they finally stumble across a future (which they don't seem to have any plan to try and actively attain but hey yeah sure endure or whatever) they can rebuild the exact same thing that fell apart. I'm with Sera on this one (didn't really think I'd be saying that ever), digging up the past so that you can wear it is just weird.

 

"Never again shall we submit" rings a wee bit hollow when you've done **** all for the last few centuries that would merit submitting. Your entire existence is submission.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Dalish are nomads because staying in one places makes them a target. They don't do it for fun or because they are just waiting around.

[Fredward]

The Dalish are nomads because staying in one places makes them a target. They don't do it for fun or because they are just waiting around.

 

I imagine it's a bit of all three.
 

[dragonflight288]

I don't have a problem with the Dalish per se, they have their merits and drawbacks like all the other cultures, BUT! I don't see the point in using 'culture' as an excuse for stagnation. The Dalish are like the dwarves and also a bit like some of the Tevinters and also Corypheus. Constantly obsessing over preservation and the glories of the past and not doing anything in the now. In fact their only raison d'etre seems to be carting around history so that when they finally stumble across a future (which they don't seem to have any plan to try and actively attain but hey yeah sure endure or whatever) they can rebuild the exact same thing that fell apart. I'm with Sera on this one (didn't really think I'd be saying that ever), digging up the past so that you can wear it is just weird.

 

"Never again shall we submit" rings a wee bit hollow when you've done **** all for the last few centuries that would merit submitting. Your entire existence is submission.

 

Considering that they're hunted by the templars who are after their mage Keepers and Firsts, or by Orlesian Nobles who see hunting the Dalish as a type of sport, and the racism of humans usually driving them away if they stay in one place too long, and I think it's kind of hard to blame them for being nomads, especially when their very religion is outlawed and being an elf, simply by virtue of having the ears, is enough to have Andrastian society drop you to the very bottom of the bottom of the heap.

 

Only the casteless are worse off than the elves in human cities, and that's saying something. 

[Colonelkillabee]

Not really. She doesn't even identify as Mythal.

Flemeth treats her as a separate entity.

"You're working too hard."

 

Making this more convoluted than it needs to be. Mythal is Flemeth, Flemeth is Mythal. We have two possibilities. One, Morrigan was born from Flemeth, and it'd be relatively recently, which would make her Mythal's daughter as well given that they share souls and are one. The other possibility is Flemeth just raised her as her child. And since she's Mythal... Mythal's child.

 

Whatever those two were before. They're one now. Call her Flemythal if you want to make it easier to grasp.

[Fredward]

Considering that they're hunted by the templars who are after their mage Keepers and Firsts, or by Orlesian Nobles who see hunting the Dalish as a type of sport, and the racism of humans usually driving them away if they stay in one place too long, and I think it's kind of hard to blame them for being nomads, especially when their very religion is outlawed and being an elf, simply by virtue of having the ears, is enough to have Andrastian society drop you to the very bottom of the bottom of the heap.

 

Only the casteless are worse off than the elves in human cities, and that's saying something. 

 

Yes, yes. Let's ignore the fact that many of the Dalish continue to forward their largely anti-human (not anti-Chantry or anti-humans-from-hundreds-of-years-ago) reductionist dogma with the same zealotry the humans who bother to hunt them do. But it's okay when they do it because they're preserving their culture from the bad-bad humans who hate them for existing. There are some Dalish clans that trade peacefully with human towns/villages and I find it very hard to believe that in their hundreds of years of wandering they could not have come up with some trading system where they had specific clans/groups without mages and maybe even without vallaslin (GASP) whose sole purpose would be to trade with the humans. So that they could garner wealth. So that they could maybe do something tangible. On their own. So that maybe they wouldn't have too wait for a charitable human to give them some land (which isn't hypocritical or counter to their whinging victim complex AT ALL) or for all the humans to just conveniently die one day. They could have integrated to some level but they didn't. They don't want to. They're too proud, too stiff-necked. Also too disorganized.

[Qun00]

"You're working too hard."

Making this more convoluted than it needs to be. Mythal is Flemeth, Flemeth is Mythal. We have two possibilities. One, Morrigan was born from Flemeth, and it'd be relatively recently, which would make her Mythal's daughter as well given that they share souls and are one. The other possibility is Flemeth just raised her as her child. And since she's Mythal... Mythal's child.

Whatever those two were before. They're one now. Call her Flemythal if you want to make it easier to grasp.

Nah, it's far from hard work.

After all, I'm not the one going through the trouble of spinning half a dozen theories to justify my point of view.

[midnight tea]

"You're working too hard."

 

Making this more convoluted than it needs to be. Mythal is Flemeth, Flemeth is Mythal. We have two possibilities. One, Morrigan was born from Flemeth, and it'd be relatively recently, which would make her Mythal's daughter as well given that they share souls and are one. The other possibility is Flemeth just raised her as her child. And since she's Mythal... Mythal's child.

 

Whatever those two were before. They're one now. Call her Flemythal if you want to make it easier to grasp.

 

I agree that sometimes those speculations can be convoluted and overc-omplicate things, however when it comes to Flemeth we KNOW that she isn't entirely Mythal incarnate - what survived and got to woman known as Flemeth was a wisp of Mythal, who herself was murdered and spent ages to release herself from whatever prison or previous state she was in.

[Nelyafinwe]

I always thought Flemeth and Mythal faked Solas out--that Mythal and her power went into the mirror and he got Flemeth herself-I mean it's been quite sometime since he's seen her, and she (Mythal) died as well so he might not at first pay much attention to the personality quirks.

And the dalish inquisitor is screwed if you pick just the wrong adviser on the clan missions. I always wished we had the opportunity to leave Wycome's residents to Corypheus's mercy or whatever the scheme was that was blamed on the clan. Having them turn into red lyrium incubators would please my inquisitor greatly.

[Colonelkillabee]

Nah, it's far from hard work.

After all, I'm not the one going through the trouble of spinning half a dozen theories to justify my point of view.

It's not a theory, it's canon fact at this point, dude.

 

I agree that sometimes those speculations can be convoluted and overc-omplicate things, however when it comes to Flemeth we KNOW that she isn't entirely Mythal incarnate - what survived and got to woman known as Flemeth was a wisp of Mythal, who herself was murdered and spent ages to release herself from whatever prison or previous state she was in.

 

This comes down to simple semantics. Flemeth and Mythal are one. Morrigan is Flemeth's daughter, making her Mythal's daughter because her mother is Mythal. Even if she wasn't always, it matters little. It really is that simple.

[S.W.]

On the destruction-of-your-clan thing. I was luckily warned about this beforehand and so chose my advisors carefully for those missions. If you use your head and read the descriptions carefully it's easily possible to avoid. The main problem was the lack of reaction.

 

For this reason, I really wish there was one cutscene or one very small area where I could - at one key point in the narrative - meet up with my clan - and then I wish there were a couple more conversation options revolving around your background. I think that would also help cement the origins a little more without having to put as much time, resources, and money into it as DA:O.

 

The Dalish are nomads because staying in one places makes them a target. They don't do it for fun or because they are just waiting around.

 

True, but not the sole reason. One of the codex entries talks of how the shems will eventually exhaust themselves and self-destruct with warring and in-fighting. Travelling is a defensive tactic but there's also an extent to which the Dalish are waiting for humanity to destroy itself.

 

I think that would make more sense if a) the Dalish were much better organised and equipped than they currently are now, with information networks and first-hand insight into the political situation in human politics, so they can swiftly seize power before they're told about it second hand and if there weren't other powerful factions vying for control in Thedas (for instance, the Qunari).

 

Personally I think that's a bad tactic in the long run, and my Lavellen, who slowly loses her faith in the Dalish during the events of the plot, also takes issue with it.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That's just something some Dalish hope will eventually happen that would allow the to have a homeland. It's not a plan that they have been deliberately trying to enact. There's another codex entry that says he doesn't mind living the life the have and doesn't care about getting a land of their own.

[myahele]

I'd say that Tabris, city elf of Origins > Lavellan, but that's just my opinion

[KaiserShep]

I'd say that Tabris, city elf of Origins > Lavellan, but that's just my opinion

 

Eh, I'd say that the city elf is better than Origins' own Dalish backstory as well. Honestly the only thing I feel it really has going for it is that it's probably the only origin where the Joining is essential to saving the character's life.