342 réponses à ce sujet

[Sifr]

Flemeth's perception of Mythal seems a little contradictory. Sometimes she refers to Mythal as separate, other times she acts as if they are one and the same. The big question, for me, is whether Mythal still exists outside Flemeth as well. Was the female figure that confronted Corypheus in the Well of Sorrows supposed to be her?

 

True, but Anders did the same thing when talking about Justice in DA2, so I think it's really a matter of perspective. They both are - and are not - the other entity that lies within them. While they've merged into the same being for the most part, the host still retain that unique part of themselves that is seperate, as does the essence.

 

For all intents and purposes, Flemeth is Mythal, but Mythal is not Flemeth... like Anders was Justice, but Justice was not Anders.

 

While both Justice and Mythal push both vessels to take certain actions, there remains a part of the host that is seperate and can take indepedent action of their own volition in service to whatever goal they are currently pursuing. As Shallow Waters pointed out, some Flemeth's being more aggressive in their attempts to course-correct history and some being more subtle and passive, would explain a lot of the inconsistency about her character in the legends, where she can go from slightly spooky witch to ruthless war leader.

 

(While I know that Flemeth is not a true abomination, her situation is similar enough to one that I suspect it works the same way. Although Mythal seems to be for the most part relatively passive like the Spirit of Faith was in Wynne and only manifests when needed, rather than constantly attempting to exert herself like Justice did to Anders.)

 

I think that Mythal does exist outside of Flemeth, or at least, fragments of her in the same manner as the medallion Hawke delivers in DA2 that allows for her to be resurrected. The Well of Sorrows being in a place dedicated to her would make sense that it has some of her power within it, so that female figure was probably meant to be her (that it looks human has been confirmed as a dev oversight).

 

She tells us that drinking from the Well (either Morrigan or the Inquisitor) was how she was able to finally locate Morrigan, which makes me think she got some kind of "ping" from the part of her that was in the Well. As the current admin, she was thus able to bestow some of her system privileges to the drinker, allowing them to activate the Eluvian, as well as turn on the firewall to hold off Corypheus.

 

[Eterna]

I think the high amount of Lavellan lovers/players is due to people bandwagoning and nothing else. 

 

"I've alway loved the Dalish, I swear!"

[Lady Artifice]

Ironic accusing someone of becoming a black and white fanatic towards a culture that is based on that concept.

 

We're on the same page when it comes to criticizing Dalish culture in general, all the way.   I'm not a fan of xenophobia or elitism. 

 

It's accusing the individuals of that culture of being hypocrites for belonging to it, even if they don't support every aspect, that's more problematic. I don't like everything my own country does, and there are some people who would tell me that if I don't like it, I should get out. But I don't think it's that simple, and I don't think It's inherently hypocritical to care about your society while not loving all of it's parts. No society is perfect, the the real world or in Thedas. 

[Sifr]

I think the high amount of Lavellan lovers/players is due to people bandwagoning and nothing else. 

 

"I've alway loved the Dalish, I swear!"

 

I don't think it's about people loving the Dalish, but more about loving the character of Lavellan.

 

Over the course of the game, Lavellan can learn that not only have the Dalish been wrong about numerous things when it came to their history and culture, but have often painted their history in a more flattering light, as well as deal with the horrible realisation that both Modern and Ancient Elves think that the Dalish completely suck and want nothing to do with them? Even your Gods aren't particulary interested in doing much to help you?

 

I think all that makes to serve to make Lavellan into a more interesting character, despite how much of an Iron Woobie at times they come across, due to how often the Dalish get torn down in the game?

 

Even more ironic is that all of your romanctic options come from groups, organisations or countries that have not exactly the best relationship with the Dalish Elves throughout history?

 

Spoiler

Cassandra is a high-ranking member of a religious organisation that believes your people are heretics and launched a Crusade against them.

Cullen is a former member of the Templars, who regularly attempt to hunt down your Keepers and Firsts for being Apostates.

Sera is a City Elf, who makes it clear that she hates everything about your culture and openly mocks them for their future-imperfect history.

Blackwall is ultimately revealed to be a former Captain in the Orlesian army, who aren't exactly known for their good treatment of Elves.

Iron Bull is a spy from an organisation that seeks to "free" your people (and everyone else) from their foolish superstitions.

Dorian is a proud member of the same Tevinter Imperium that turned your people into slaves... and often still do.

Josephine works inside the Orlesian court and the scandal of dallying with a Dalish Elf would ruin her career if you weren't Inquisitor.

Solas is all "What's up nerds, you're all wrong" when it comes to the Dalish... also, ya know, he happens to be the Dread freaking Wolf.

 

When it comes to "Elven Glory!" we're not apparently all that interested in waving the flag?

 

[harutora]

I've read it.

 

Thanks.

 

Nowhere does it say that Siona's sister was a scout. Nor does it say that she was killed following Elandrin. It certainly never says she was raped a hundred times. It might make for an interesting fanfic, but it's not in the codex entry.

 

 

Red Crossing itself was an unprovoked massacre of a human village.

 

And I've said this before, but there's no reason to assume the Chantry was lying about the abductions and sacrifices. It's entirely possible that those things really did happen, even if the elves were not responsible. I'm pretty sure that blood magic was around in the Glory Age.

He was disappearing a lot despite the chantry rumor of abduction against elves, he was meeting a human woman, his clanswomen was found too close to human village and was killed by humans. any smart person can add the scenarios, it doesn't need to be explicitly told to us : the elf girl killed was an scout and was following elandrin. but if the term "sister" and "brother" were literal then it makes even more sense that even if she was not a scout she was worried about her foolish brother and got herself killed following him.

and i said on my 1st post "likely raped..", after playing 2 DA games i am no stranger to the things humans do to elves, we all remember origin story of DAO.

no mater how you wanna twist your word, red crossing was not an unprovoked massacre, it was provoked several times over. read codex in maliphant's headquarter in emeral graves, there is one which explicitly writes how red crossing village was a sacrifice toward orlais' great expansion war, they needed to remove elves from the fereldan border and they constanly sent chantry forces to "turn the heathens toward maker". 

well doesn't matter, you have already made up your mind, no point bringing logic on table.

[BloodKaiden]

I think the high amount of Lavellan lovers/players is due to people bandwagoning and nothing else. 
 
"I've alway loved the Dalish, I swear!"

Nothing wrong with being a proud Dalish, just be upfront about that fact that you are an ***hole like 95% of all citizens in Thedas.

[GGGenesis]

Honestly, what do you expect when playing as a member of a persecuted and oppressed group of people? Even in DAO, the Dalish and city elf origins were the saddest, I actually found the Dalish one a lot more hard hitting (it was fantastically written!). 

 

It's not so much an 'I love the Dalish' thing, but they've always been more tragic. And I didn't read Shakespeare for his comedies. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

Honestly, what do you expect when playing as a member of a persecuted and oppressed group of people? Even in DAO, the Dalish and city elf origins were the saddest, I actually found the Dalish one a lot more hard hitting (it was fantastically written!). 

 

It's not so much an 'I love the Dalish' thing, but they've always been more tragic. And I didn't read Shakespeare for his comedies. 

 

What Human Noble isn't one of the saddest? The poor sap had to see most of their entire family killed. That's pretty bad. 

[S.W.]

I think the high amount of Lavellan lovers/players is due to people bandwagoning and nothing else. 
 
"I've alway loved the Dalish, I swear!"

Sifr already responded to this quite well, but you can play through a Lavellan without being particularly pro-Dalish at all. Dalish character doesn't imply them having a typical relationship with your Dalishness. You're playing an individual from a group, not a living embodiment of it. In fact, it's because and not in spite of that tension that many people like the Lavellan background, not because I shout "ELVEN GLORY!!" from the hilltops every time I smack a bandit with a few arrows.

I'll happily concede that I actually prefer city elves to the dalish, and in DA:O my favourite origins were the Dwarven ones. As far as the whole of Dragon Age is concerned, my Brosca was the most brilliant fun and had the some of the best payoff and story investment out of all my playthroughs. I don't see why you need to be pro-Dalish to like Lavellan or enjoy the suspense and drama that origin provides.

[The Lone Shadow]

Ah, every hero has to go through crap in their story, like Varric says in one of his banters with Cassandra.

 

Varric: "Look, Seeker, if you love a character you give them pain, ruin their lives, make them suffer. Maybe even throw in a heroic death."

 

Cassandra: "Well that makes no sense."

 

Varric: "Well, you care enough to argue, if she had a nice afternoon and took a nap you'd stop reading."

 

Hawke's loses one of his siblings, could lose the other one, his mother dies, and he could end up dead.

 

For at least the first half of the game my Lavellan was doing pretty well. One my Lavellans hated being an icon for the Andrastian religion, while my other one had a ball with it. Stupid humans think you're the Herald of Andraste and that she spoke to you, use this to your advantage to shame the humans for how badly they mistreated the elves. She believe the Maker was nonsense but the gullible saps that believe in him don't need to know that. I head cannoned that she made up a lot of crap about meeting Andraste, like "Oh, yeah Andraste came down to me in fade on a golden chariot driven by flying mabari. She siad you all need to treat the elves like people instead of property, the Chantry has failed her and those in the Chantry now have turned their backs on the Maker. Also, Andraste did have mabari."

 

Also, both of my Lavellans knew they would have crap flying at them for being Dalish, (though none of them expected it to come from a fellow elf) and they dealt with it by not giving a crap. Humans think we're savages, well that's because they're idiots. Sera hates the Dalish and think I'm stupid for not cutting ties with them, whatever, you're just like the humans, meaning you're opinion about my culture is meaningless to me. If you continue to harp on me about this I'm going kick your butt out of here.

 

The whole fiasco at the temple and with Mythal hurt them, but if anything it just pissed them off. "Well F you then. We don't need your help anyway! If you won't help the elves then I will! I don't care what anyone has to say about my people, I love them!"

 

So, it kind of depends on what kind of mind set you're Lavellan has going on and so long as you're clan doesn't die and you don't drink from the well, Lavellan's position isn't that bad. Plus, it feels good to be a Lavellan putting Briala on the throne and unleashing a hardened Divine Leliana upon the Chantry.

[Sable Rhapsody]

So, it kind of depends on what kind of mind set you're Lavellan has going on and so long as you're clan doesn't die and you don't drink from the well, Lavellan's position isn't that bad. Plus, it feels good to be a Lavellan putting Briala on the throne and unleashing a hardened Divine Leliana upon the Chantry.

 

Agreed.  Awkward Solas breakup aside, I think my Lavellan's position at the end of DA:I is definitely better than my Warden after DA:A, or Hawke after DA2.

 

I think the high amount of Lavellan lovers/players is due to people bandwagoning and nothing else. 

 

"I've alway loved the Dalish, I swear!"

 

I haven't.  And I developed an appreciation for all the elven lore in DA:I, including the Dalish, because I thought they were more interesting than in previous games.  So if that's bandwagoning, sure, I'm on the bandwagon? 

[phyreblade74]

I think the high amount of Lavellan lovers/players is due to people bandwagoning and nothing else. 

 

"I've alway loved the Dalish, I swear!"

 

Nope, couldn't get on any one of the Dalish wagons in prior games.  The Dalish origin was one I couldn't relate to, especially with poor Tamlen's fate.  And Merrill in DA2 annoyed the crap out of me ... sees two members of her clan pretty much destroyed by this mirror and spends all her time trying to put it back together again.  What did she THINK was gonna happen, argh?

 

To me, Lavellan was just so much more fun to play than any Dalish was before.  I did plan on an Elven Inquisitor long, long before the game was released.  But only because I wanted to finally create a Dalish who wasn't so doggedly anti-human, head-in-the-past snotty and arrogant a Dalish.  I wanted to make a character with a different and purely unique perspective, rather.  I actually anticipated a female Inquisitor, in fact, but then I ended with a canon male Lavellan.  But, to me, he's just perfect in the story as the Inquisitor, and he turned out to be everything I wanted my Inquisitor to be, back when I was imagining the game. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Nope, couldn't get on any one of the Dalish wagons in prior games.  The Dalish origin was one I couldn't relate to, especially with poor Tamlen's fate.  And Merrill in DA2 annoyed the crap out of me ... sees two members of her clan pretty much destroyed by this mirror and spends all her time trying to put it back together again.  What did she THINK was gonna happen, argh?

 

To me, Lavellan was just so much more fun to play than any Dalish was before.  I did plan on an Elven Inquisitor long, long before the game was released.  But only because I wanted to finally create a Dalish who wasn't so doggedly anti-human, head-in-the-past snotty and arrogant a Dalish.  I wanted to make a character with a different and purely unique perspective, rather.  I actually anticipated a female Inquisitor, in fact, but then I ended with a canon male Lavellan.  But, to me, he's just perfect in the story as the Inquisitor, and he turned out to be everything I wanted my Inquisitor to be, back when I was imagining the game. 

 

You can do that in the first game.

[Br3admax]

You're implying that one could actually be Dalish instead of referencing the fact that you were born Dalish in DA:O. They aren't exactly the same thing. 

[Nelyafinwe]

Ah, every hero has to go through crap in their story, like Varric says in one of his banters with Cassandra.

Varric: "Look, Seeker, if you love a character you give them pain, ruin their lives, make them suffer. Maybe even throw in a heroic death."

Cassandra: "Well that makes no sense."

Varric: "Well, you care enough to argue, if she had a nice afternoon and took a nap you'd stop reading."

Hawke's loses one of his siblings, could lose the other one, his mother dies, and he could end up dead.

For at least the first half of the game my Lavellan was doing pretty well. One my Lavellans hated being an icon for the Andrastian religion, while my other one had a ball with it. Stupid humans think you're the Herald of Andraste and that she spoke to you, use this to your advantage to shame the humans for how badly they mistreated the elves. She believe the Maker was nonsense but the gullible saps that believe in him don't need to know that. I head cannoned that she made up a lot of crap about meeting Andraste, like "Oh, yeah Andraste came down to me in fade on a golden chariot driven by flying mabari. She siad you all need to treat the elves like people instead of property, the Chantry has failed her and those in the Chantry now have turned their backs on the Maker. Also, Andraste did have mabari."

Also, both of my Lavellans knew they would have crap flying at them for being Dalish, (though none of them expected it to come from a fellow elf) and they dealt with it by not giving a crap. Humans think we're savages, well that's because they're idiots. Sera hates the Dalish and think I'm stupid for not cutting ties with them, whatever, you're just like the humans, meaning you're opinion about my culture is meaningless to me. If you continue to harp on me about this I'm going kick your butt out of here.

The whole fiasco at the temple and with Mythal hurt them, but if anything it just pissed them off. "Well F you then. We don't need your help anyway! If you won't help the elves then I will! I don't care what anyone has to say about my people, I love them!"

So, it kind of depends on what kind of mind set you're Lavellan has going on and so long as you're clan doesn't die and you don't drink from the well, Lavellan's position isn't that bad. Plus, it feels good to be a Lavellan putting Briala on the throne and unleashing a hardened Divine Leliana upon the Chantry.

I love this.

[roselavellan]

I have to admit I initially only chose the Lavellan origin because I needed the Solas romance. If there was any bandwagon I was on prior to this, it was the anti-Dalish one (sorry, Dalish supporters).

 

As I've played however, I've begun to really feel for the female Lavellan, she does have a poignancy to her situation, as mentioned in the OP and other posts. She's really an outsider in all this; even if she doesn't face outright racism, she's not really "one of them" (from remarks people like Threnn and Scout Harding make when they meet her). Yet here she is, thrown into the mess and determined to save the world. And she manages to do just that, while building a formidable organization AND also mastering the Great Game (wha-? how did she manage that?).

 

And yet, even as she builds her army of followers, she remains alone... especially if she chooses a relationship with Solas. It's really pretty sad. Admirable but sad. A bit too sad, I think.

[phyreblade74]

You can do that in the first game.

 

For me, it didn't work in Origins.  She was too vested in Tamlen, felt that being a Warden was a terrible fate, a curse even.  She never got over the loss, in fact.  She's the one character of mine I let take the final blow at the end of the story, shrug.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

For me, it didn't work in Origins.  She was too vested in Tamlen, felt that being a Warden was a terrible fate, a curse even.  She never got over the loss, in fact.  She's the one character of mine I let take the final blow at the end of the story, shrug.

 

Aren't there dialogue options to decide how you feel about being a Warden? Also Tamlen was Maharial's close friend, why would she not be invested in him? 

[Sifr]

I have to admit I initially only chose the Lavellan origin because I needed the Solas romance. If there was any bandwagon I was on prior to this, it was the anti-Dalish one (sorry, Dalish supporters).

 

As I've played however, I've begun to really feel for the female Lavellan, she does have a poignancy to her situation, as mentioned in the OP and other posts. She's really an outsider in all this; even if she doesn't face outright racism, she's not really "one of them" (from remarks people like Threnn and Scout Harding make when they meet her). Yet here she is, thrown into the mess and determined to save the world. And she manages to do just that, while building a formidable organization AND also mastering the Great Game (wha-? how did she manage that?).

 

And yet, even as she builds her army of followers, she remains alone... especially if she chooses a relationship with Solas. It's really pretty sad. Admirable but sad. A bit too sad, I think.

 

Lavellan does come across as an outsider of all the Inqusitors and the one who seems most alone.

 

Even the other two non-human origins have "made it" in the mostly human-run Thedas, since Cadash has travelled across the Free Marches (and possibly even to Orzammar) as a member of the Carta, while Adaar has amassed quite an impressive and glowing resume as a mercenary (according to Jospehine) that has won them a lot of respect.

 

Compared to them, Lavellan has spent their life wandering with their clan, skirting the borders of Free March states to avoid drawing too much ire from the local lords. Even if Clan Lavellan is more interested in human affairs than most, this is still likely the first time that Lavellan has been amongst humans en-masse, especially since it's the only origin where they went to the Conclave on their own and not as part of some group.

 

Iron Bull, Varric, Scout Harding and even Ameridan in JOH all lampshade at times that the "Inquisitor" is comes across as a larger than life figure, far bigger than they are. This does often mean they have to to play a role for the rest of Thedas, while hiding who they actually are underneath, so that original person is almost lost underneath the legend.

 

Lavellan tends to have far more moments in the game than Cadash or Adaar where we see that their "Dalishness" is apparently being hidden or downplayed by Jospehine and Leliana, since they're trying to spin them the right way and generate the best PR.

 

Incidentally, I always figured that Lavellan mastered the Game because it really boils down to being well-informed, paying close attention to details, having the gift of the gab and knowing how to influence or manipulate people.

 

If their clan do keep closer ties to the rest of the world than most, then they'd be a lot informed and knowledgable about human society than most, especially since the Marches have been under Orlesian rule from time to time, so there's a lot of history and information on Orlais just lying about (and the Dalish do love history). Being either a hunter or a First would put them in a profession that actively requires them to pay close attention to details, either while looking for prey or whilst studying magic and elven lore, since it's vital for their clan's survival that they do so. If they are one of those clans who do trade with local villages as mentioned in Origins, being able to convince suspicious humans to let you trade in their market and then haggle for prices, probably serves as good practice to learn how to influence or manipulate people.

 

Plus y'know, Josephine and Leliana probably gave a lot of helpful pointers beforehand about how the Game is played... and if all else fails, just bluff.

[phyreblade74]

Aren't there dialogue options to decide how you feel about being a Warden? Also Tamlen was Maharial's close friend, why would she not be invested in him? 

 

Are you honestly trying to dispute, why I responded to the Dalish Origins story the way I did?  Funny stuff.

 

Hey, that's why I stated it was FOR ME that the story didn't work that way.  MY Dalish elf in Origins hated being a Warden, saw it as a curse brought about by a strange artifact, and absolutely resented the loss of someone she loved and then her entire clan in very, very short order.  She remained totally focused on the idea of BEING Dalish, to the extent of not really caring overmuch for non-Dalish.

 

I only wanted my Inquisitor to be different, and he turned out to be unique and remarkable.  I totally love my Lavellan, even though I could never relate well to my Mahariel. That's good, right?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Are you honestly trying to dispute, why I responded to the Dalish Origins story the way I did?  Funny stuff.

 

Hey, that's why I stated it was FOR ME that the story didn't work that way.  MY Dalish elf in Origins hated being a Warden, saw it as a curse brought about by a strange artifact, and absolutely resented the loss of someone she loved and then her entire clan in very, very short order.  She remained totally focused on the idea of BEING Dalish, to the extent of not really caring overmuch for non-Dalish.

 

I only wanted my Inquisitor to be different, and he turned out to be unique and remarkable.  I totally love my Lavellan, even though I could never relate well to my Mahariel. That's good, right?

 

But... can't you still control how your Warden thinks, feels and reacts? It is still your Warden. You say you couldn't relate to her, but all the things you couldn't relate to are what you decided she was.

[Sifr]

But... can't you still control how your Warden thinks, feels and reacts? It is still your Warden. You say you couldn't relate to her, but all the things you couldn't relate to are what you decided she was.

 

Not everyone can relate to certain Wardens... the Dalish Origin has a lot of lore and ties to later in the franchise in it, but it does suffer from a major disconnect in terms of the actual story of Origins itself, especially since it's the only origin we don't revisit at some point, save for encountering Tamlen as a ghoul during the shriek attack?

 

(Yes, Cousland never returns to Highever either, but their status as a noble and their vendetta against Howe does inform a lot of their particular story, so their origin still is relevant)

[phyreblade74]

But... can't you still control how your Warden thinks, feels and reacts? It is still your Warden. You say you couldn't relate to her, but all the things you couldn't relate to are what you decided she was.

 

Erhm, yea.  That's what I said.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't understand your problem with relating to a Dalish Warden, then? It's something you can fix.

[Sifr]

I don't understand your problem with relating to a Dalish Warden, then? It's something you can fix.

 

Yes, by playing another Warden... because you can't relate to the Dalish one.

 

Sometimes characters just don't click with people, even if you are the one in control of playing them. Why do you think people sometimes decide to reroll or abandon playthroughs, because they simply can't get invested in the story with that particular character?