Yes, by playing another Warden... because you can't relate to the Dalish one.
Sometimes characters just don't click with people, even if you are the one in control of playing them. Why do you think people sometimes decide to reroll or abandon playthroughs, because they simply can't get invested in the story with that particular character?
But all the things they said they couldn't relate to about the Dalish Warden are things that can be decided by the player.
But all the things they said they couldn't relate to about the Dalish Warden are things that can be decided by the player.
Tamlen's fate and Merrill's obsession with the Eluvian can't be chosen by the player though. If you are playing as a male and don't have that ship-tease, or simply don't care much about Tamlen (he's well-meaning, but kinda arrogant) then his fate won't resonate with you at all?
Same with Merrill, if you didn't much care for her character in DA2 or the Dalish Warden, then it's harder to be invested in some of her plotline, since it's so heavily tied to those events (since they happened regardless of whether Mahariel was the Warden).
Not to mention, once again, the Dalish plot thread in DA2 about the mirror goes nowhere because she never fixes it at all. Adding insult to injury, the whole thing is even more of a Shaggy Dog Story in Inquisition now we know that she could never have fixed the mirror anyway without a key. Unless she found one between DA2 and Inquisition, once again, that plotline feels like kinda a dud, since it has little bearing to the game it's in.
Aside from a few remarks here and there, as well as during the Nature of the Beast, Mahariel's status as a Dalish Elf barely means anything in Origins?
(Dwarves have the same issue, ever wonder why only 5% of all players pick them in Origins according to the stats?)
Tamlen's fate and Merrill's obsession with the Eluvian can't be chosen by the player though. If you are playing as a male and don't have that ship-tease, or simply don't care much about Tamlen (he's well-meaning, but kinda arrogant) then his fate won't resonate with you at all?
Same with Merrill, if you didn't much care for her character in DA2 or the Dalish Warden, then it's harder to be invested in some of her plotline, since it's so heavily tied to those events (since they happened regardless of whether Mahariel was the Warden).
Not to mention, once again, the Dalish plot thread in DA2 about the mirror goes nowhere because she never fixes it at all. Adding insult to injury, the whole thing is even more of a Shaggy Dog Story in Inquisition now we know that she could never have fixed the mirror anyway without a key. Unless she found one between DA2 and Inquisition, once again, that plotline feels like kinda a dud, since it has little bearing to the game it's in.
Aside from a few remarks here and there, as well as during the Nature of the Beast, Mahariel's status as a Dalish Elf barely means anything in Origins?
(Dwarves have the same issue, ever wonder why only 5% of all players pick them in Origins according to the stats?)
What has any of that got to do with relating to the Warden character itself in the first game? The actions of various NPCs are a separate issue.
The reason that I started talking about this is in response to the claim that Lavellan was the first time that you could play a Dalish elf that wasn't anti-human, snotty and arrogant. Those are all things you can control.
What has any of that got to do with relating to the Warden character itself in the first game? The actions of various NPCs are a separate issue.
The reason that I started talking about this is in response to the claim that Lavellan was the first time that you could play a Dalish elf that wasn't anti-human, snotty and arrogant. Those are all things you can control.
While you can control whether or not to pick those options or not, the fact remains that Mahariel has way more snotty, arrogant and anti-human dialogue options available to them than Lavellan does and often they "sound" a lot more hostile in their tone when voicing them.
When Mahariel mentions the Exalted March to the Chantry priest at Ostagar or deals with members of the Chantry, their dialogue options comes across as extremely bitter or scathing. Whenever Lavellan mentions the fall of the Dales, their dialogue comes across as being more sad than anything else, while their dialogue when talking about other religions is rarely anything other than civil and polite.
You can play the paragon of politeness as a Dalish Warden by not picking those options, but if you do that, then you're just using the same dialogues option available to you when you're playing as a Brosca or as a Cousland, so how does that distinguish Mahariel from them?
Sad to say, often, a lot of the dialogue that's Dalish-specific rarely doesn't make it sound like you're not standing on a soap-box about your people.
While you can control whether or not to pick those options or not, the fact remains that Mahariel has way more snotty, arrogant and anti-human dialogue options available to them than Lavellan does and often they "sound" a lot more hostile in their tone when voicing them.
When Mahariel mentions the Exalted March to the Chantry priest at Ostagar or deals with members of the Chantry, their dialogue options comes across as extremely bitter or scathing. Whenever Lavellan mentions the fall of the Dales, their dialogue comes across as being more sad than anything else, while their dialogue when talking about other religions is rarely anything other than civil and polite.
You can play the paragon of politeness as a Dalish Warden by not picking those options, but if you do that, then you're just using the same dialogues option available to you when you're playing as a Brosca or as a Cousland, so how does that distinguish Mahariel from them?
Sad to say, often, a lot of the dialogue that's Dalish-specific rarely doesn't make it sound like you're not standing on a soap-box about your people.
Actually no that's exactly the situation where you can demonstrate that you are not anti-human. If you pick the right dialogue choices you have the option to say that you don't object to receiving the blessing of the humans' god, without being hostile.
Dalish specific dialogue is not automatically equivalent to anti-human or anti-Chantry dialogue. You can even pray to the Creators for the souls of those who fell in defense of Redcliffe. I honestly remember only a handful of Dalish dialogue choices that sound exclusively hostile.
Other examples include: greeting King Calian without being hostile, telling Alistair about the funerary customs of your people, talking to Morrigan about the magic of your Keepers, talking to Leliana about how there is prejudice on both sides.
And secondly, even if they were only angry Dalish dialogue, the fact is that a Maharial who picks neutral dialogue is still a Maharial, who is still an example of a Dalish elf.
I played a Dalish elf that wasn't hostile to the Chantry or to humanity and I remember finding the experience to be quite satisfying in that regard.
But you're missing the point, while you don't have to pick the angry dialogue, it's still largely the case that the neutral and polite dialogue are often the exact same response options given to the other races, word for word.
Mahariel doesn't have to be a jerk, but a lot of the unique options they are given end up make them sound like one.
But you're missing the point, while you don't have to pick the angry dialogue, it's still largely the case that the neutral and polite dialogue are often the exact same response options given to the other races, word for word.
Mahariel doesn't have to be a jerk, but a lot of the unique options they are given end up make them sound like one.
But there is more than just angry Dalish specific dialogue. Some of the Dalish specific dialogue is friendly.
And there's also neutral dialogue that lets you be a jerk. Dalish are hardly the only ones allowed to be a jerk.
What has any of that got to do with relating to the Warden character itself in the first game? The actions of various NPCs are a separate issue.
The reason that I started talking about this is in response to the claim that Lavellan was the first time that you could play a Dalish elf that wasn't anti-human, snotty and arrogant. Those are all things you can control.
Indeed, me the player. *I* control how my character feels, thinks, believes, develops -- I'm the architect of their belief structure, who they are, what they do and why they do it. No one else gets to define my character but me myself. Not you, nor anyone else here on the forums. Such is the beauty and depth available to these games, the essence of the "roleplaying" aspect that goes into every single RPG.
For me, the story has to make sense, is all. And it was the opening scenes of the Dalish elf origin that most clearly defined that particular character, for me. I was shown my character and her friend/lover/whatever both prepared and feeling absolutely justified killing a couple of humans who did nothing truly wrong except wander too far into the forest where the clan was camping. FOR ME, these were two elves who bitterly disliked humans and it was obvious right there in the very start. FOR ME, no matter how far removed from her clan Mahariel went, she was always that same girl who was fully prepared to kill a couple of humans in the forest. Just for being human, mind you. FOR ME, she didn't suddenly become someone who cared about anyone and everyone aside from her own unique Dalish people. She was anti-human from the start and pretty much finished that way by the time it was all done and over.
Look, this isn't a question about right or wrong. It's not like you get to define what's correct in anyone's story but your own. See the Dalish origin story as you choose and as you control and as you feel is best, Jedi. It's all good, right? Only realize that not everyone's going to see it the way you do, shrug.
Indeed, me the player. *I* control how my character feels, thinks, believes, develops -- I'm the architect of their belief structure, who they are, what they do and why they do it. No one else gets to define my character but me myself. Not you, nor anyone else here on the forums. Such is the beauty and depth available to these games, the essence of the "roleplaying" aspect that goes into every single RPG.
For me, the story has to make sense, is all. And it was the opening scenes of the Dalish elf origin that most clearly defined that particular character, for me. I was shown my character and her friend/lover/whatever both prepared and feeling absolutely justified killing a couple of humans who did nothing truly wrong except wander too far into the forest where the clan was camping. FOR ME, these were two elves who bitterly disliked humans and it was obvious right there in the very start. FOR ME, no matter how far removed from her clan Mahariel went, she was always that same girl who was fully prepared to kill a couple of humans in the forest. Just for being human, mind you. FOR ME, she didn't suddenly become someone who cared about anyone and everyone aside from her own unique Dalish people. She was anti-human from the start and pretty much finished that way by the time it was all done and over.
Look, this isn't a question about right or wrong. It's not like you get to define what's correct in anyone's story but your own. See the Dalish origin story as you choose and as you control and as you feel is best, Jedi. It's all good, right? Only realize that not everyone's going to see it the way you do, shrug.
It just doesn't make any sense to me that you would intentionally define your character in a way you couldn't relate to. The same options are available to everyone who plays that Origin.
It just doesn't make any sense to me that you would intentionally define your character in a way you couldn't relate to. The same options are available to everyone who plays that Origin.
It didn't make sense any other way, shrug. Not to me. Mind you, Mahariel is NOT my canon Warden, precisely because I plain didn't like her. But the story didn't make sense any other way but THAT one, and for me that's simply how Mahariel is supposed to be. I myself can't wrap my head around how you'd be able to see Mahariel any other way, rather.
It just doesn't make any sense to me that you would intentionally define your character in a way you couldn't relate to. The same options are available to everyone who plays that Origin.
Tell that to people who can't stand BroShep but love FemShep, even though the dialogue for both characters is exactly the same, save for gender. Sometimes a protagonist just doesn't "click" with some people, since everyone has their own preferences and tastes?
I mean, I desperately want to play a male Cadash but I just can't get into playing that character the same way I can with a female Cadash. While I like the female Adaar, it's been harder for me to get into that playthrough, compared to my male Adaar while I took to like a duck takes to water. I used exactly the same voices (Sumalee and Jon's American accents) for both Qunari and Dwarves, yet for some reason, even though the peformances were the same and the only difference was race, I simply found it harder to get into the character this time around?
I like the Dalish Origin and the Dalish Warden overall, but I totally get where Phyrdeblade's coming from because I had the exact same problem with that particular origin as well. It took me nigh on forever to warm to the character and even now, I've still not managed to finish a full playthrough of that character. Often, I find myself enjoying other people's Dalish Wardens in fanfic or artwork, more than my own, who I never got that much attached too?
Tell that to people who can't stand BroShep but love FemShep, even though the dialogue for both characters is exactly the same, save for gender. Sometimes a protagonist just doesn't "click" with some people, since everyone has their own preferences and tastes?
Don't people like FemShep over BroShep because of the differences in voice acting? FemShep has more passion in her voice acting while BroShep sounds kinda bland.
Don't people like FemShep over BroShep because of the differences in voice acting? FemShep has more passion in her voice acting while BroShep sounds kinda bland.
That's because most people sadly don't give BroShep enough time, they take one listen and switch to FemShep. Which is kinda a disservice, since both genders sounded rather bland and stiff in ME1 compared to later games, but I'd say that was more of how Shepard was written in the first game more than Hale or Meer's fault, both the writers and actors were still getting used to the character. Mark Meer really hit his stride in ME2 once Shepard was given more humour (which is Meer's forte) and more of a personality, and his handling of the more emotional stuff was often better than Hale was.
As for unvoiced games... well, the character's "voice" often comes in how they are written or are show to interact with others? Mahariel's "voice", at least in their origin definitely comes across as having a "Never again shall we submit" vibe to it, even if you play them as tolerant as possible.
I did the Lavellan playthrough, Solas romance and all, as my first playthrough, and I'm glad I did, I don't think any other race/gender combination as as much potential to get emotionally invested in the story.
I found a lot of potential for that in Lavellan/Sera.
It didn't make sense any other way, shrug. Not to me. Mind you, Mahariel is NOT my canon Warden, precisely because I plain didn't like her. But the story didn't make sense any other way but THAT one, and for me that's simply how Mahariel is supposed to be. I myself can't wrap my head around how you'd be able to see Mahariel any other way, rather.
Alright, then. I still don't really understand how you can see any particular Warden as having been "supposed to be" any one way, especially since you get dialogue to decide right away how you feel about the very first situation you are put in, but whatever.
Tell that to people who can't stand BroShep but love FemShep, even though the dialogue for both characters is exactly the same, save for gender. Sometimes a protagonist just doesn't "click" with some people, since everyone has their own preferences and tastes?
I mean, I desperately want to play a male Cadash but I just can't get into playing that character the same way I can with a female Cadash. While I like the female Adaar, it's been harder for me to get into that playthrough, compared to my male Adaar while I took to like a duck takes to water. I used exactly the same voices (Sumalee and Jon's American accents) for both Qunari and Dwarves, yet for some reason, even though the peformances were the same and the only difference was race, I simply found it harder to get into the character this time around?
I like the Dalish Origin and the Dalish Warden overall, but I totally get where Phyrdeblade's coming from because I had the exact same problem with that particular origin as well. It took me nigh on forever to warm to the character and even now, I've still not managed to finish a full playthrough of that character. Often, I find myself enjoying other people's Dalish Wardens in fanfic or artwork, more than my own, who I never got that much attached too?
Well, I'm not someone who has a preference for MaleShep or Femshep and don't dislike either. But even in that case I could potentially understand disliking a vocal performance for one reason or another. But the Warden is a silent protagonist.
I could understand not really finding the basic premise of an Origin to be an interesting concept for a protagonist. I was not really excited about the prospect of playing a Circle Mage, for instance. They are last on my list of Wardens to play, but that's not because I somehow can't or couldn't wrap my head around playing a Mage in one of the ways the game clearly offers. I mean isn't that opportunity the whole point of an RPG like this?
Don't people like FemShep over BroShep because of the differences in voice acting? FemShep has more passion in her voice acting while BroShep sounds kinda bland.
That's because most people sadly don't give BroShep enough time, they take one listen and switch to FemShep. Which is kinda a disservice, since both genders sounded rather bland and stiff in ME1 compared to later games, but I'd say that was more of how Shepard was written in the first game more than Hale or Meer's fault, both the writers and actors were still getting used to the character. Mark Meer really hit his stride in ME2 once Shepard was given more humour (which is Meer's forte) and more of a personality, and his handling of the more emotional stuff was often better than Hale was.
As for unvoiced games... well, the character's "voice" often comes in how they are written or are show to interact with others? Mahariel's "voice", at least in their origin definitely comes across as having a "Never again shall we submit" vibe to it, even if you play them as tolerant as possible.
I actually related far better to Broshep when I played the entire series with the same guy character. Maybe Sifr has a point, that the voice improves past the first game. I know I enjoyed ME2 and ME3 far more than the first game, shrug. I only appreciate that each one of us is going to respond to these stories in our own unique ways, to see the characters from their own perspective.
It's like the companions, maybe. I can't stand Blackwall and every time I think of making a female character to romance him I just can't help but think, "Why?!" But I am okay with Vivienne, love the heck out of Fenris (fave game character EVER!), thought Kaidan was fairly awesome and sacrificed Ashley every time, didn't really mesh well with Leliana in Origins, and actually adore Solas to no end. But I don't bother myself to disagree when people feel exactly the opposite of me, when they insist Fenris was too emo or how silly it is to ever pick Kaidan over Ashley. To me, how you see and feel the story works is totally up to you, is all.
Basically, to each his own. It's a game, have fun with it!
Alright, then. I still don't really understand how you can see any particular Warden as having been "supposed to be" any one way, especially since you get dialogue to decide right away how you feel about the very first situation you are put in, but whatever.
*snip*
Turn it around, Jedi. There's dialogue there that lets you make a Mahariel who's anti-human, arrogant and snotty about being Dalish to everyone she meets. Why would you personally NOT choose that dialogue?
Turn it around, Jedi. There's dialogue there that lets you make a Mahariel who's anti-human, arrogant and snotty about being Dalish to everyone she meets. Why would you personally NOT choose that dialogue?
Because you decided that your Mahariel isn't like that.
Turn it around, Jedi. There's dialogue there that lets you make a Mahariel who's anti-human, arrogant and snotty about being Dalish to everyone she meets. Why would you personally NOT choose that dialogue?
Because I didn't like playing a character that way. So I played the character differently. And I could do easily that without skipping all the Dalish specific dialogue. There was no one way I had to play him.
Lavellan does come across as an outsider of all the Inqusitors and the one who seems most alone.
Even the other two non-human origins have "made it" in the mostly human-run Thedas, since Cadash has travelled across the Free Marches (and possibly even to Orzammar) as a member of the Carta, while Adaar has amassed quite an impressive and glowing resume as a mercenary (according to Jospehine) that has won them a lot of respect.
Compared to them, Lavellan has spent their life wandering with their clan, skirting the borders of Free March states to avoid drawing too much ire from the local lords. Even if Clan Lavellan is more interested in human affairs than most, this is still likely the first time that Lavellan has been amongst humans en-masse, especially since it's the only origin where they went to the Conclave on their own and not as part of some group.
Iron Bull, Varric, Scout Harding and even Ameridan in JOH all lampshade at times that the "Inquisitor" is comes across as a larger than life figure, far bigger than they are. This does often mean they have to to play a role for the rest of Thedas, while hiding who they actually are underneath, so that original person is almost lost underneath the legend.
My Lavellan felt like an outsider even among her own inner circle, at least until Varric set up the wicked grace bonding moment. After that she started to feel a bit more part of the group. She did feel extremely alone to me, because people couldn't see her as anything but a religious icon and with that comes people keeping a respectable distance from you. Revere you as an icon but can't get past that to see you as a person. That could be difficult for any inquisitor to handle, but even more so for a Lavellan who is a fish out of water. Who can't connect with people, not only because of that distance, but because she can't shake off the feeling that the only reason she is being treated with any amount of decency is because her hand glows. My first Lavellan couldn't even reveal in the possibility that her position could help her people, because she was sure humans would just say, "Well, Lavellan is an exception and all other elves are inferior."
This feel changed a bit as the game continued on. The wicked grace game made her feel like the others have more or less gotten past the religious icon garbage and started seeing her as a person. While ending the Wicked hearts game with Briala in power started to make her believe a bit more that she could actually make things better for her people.
I feel, that for my Lavellan, this is short of the reason why she fell for Solas. He doesn't believe she is the herald of anything and can see her for who she is. At, the beginning, Sera short of made her feel like a person too with the pranks and whenever Sera brought up her simple world view, my Lavellan would smile and think, "I wish things were really that simple." But Sera ruined that by crapping on Lavellan's heritage and beliefs, so...
Modifié par The Lone Shadow, 11 juin 2015 - 12:47 .
Couldn't you play the Dalish Warden a bit like Merrill in that she/he doesn't show aggression towards humans? Just because someone comes from a certain background doesn't mean that they have to act in a certain way, the nature vs nurture argument. I mean, I've seen a lot of people play Tabris as a hotheaded anti-human elf that uses violence to solve problems, while I played Tabris as a calm person, who is also anti-human but tries to solve thing through diplomacy. Why? Because doing so makes it less likely for anyone to have to die, particularly on the elf side.
Because I didn't like playing a character that way. So I played the character differently. And I could do easily that without skipping all the Dalish specific dialogue. There was no one way I had to play him.
Because you didn't like playing the character that way ... well, Jedi. I didn't LIKE playing Mahariel the way you did. The story didn't feel "correct" to me until I played Mahariel the way I did, and then I didn't really like Mahariel. I had one single successful playthrough with a Mahariel and that was enough for me.
Couldn't you play the Dalish Warden a bit like Merrill in that she/he doesn't show aggression towards humans? Just because someone comes from a certain background doesn't mean that they have to act in a certain way, the nature vs nurture argument. I mean, I've seen a lot of people play Tabris as a hotheaded anti-human elf that uses violence to solve problems, while I played Tabris as a calm person, who is also anti-human but tries to solve thing through diplomacy. Why? Because doing so makes it less likely for anyone to have to die, particularly on the elf side.
Don't get me started on Merrill. I stopped feeling sorry for Merrill the first time I heard her call Feynriel a halfbreed, actually. One of the most bigoted characters you ever get the chance to meet, mind you. Which is precisely the point, my issue with Mahariel was that she never really lost her bias against non-Dalish, not that she was some sort of violent person when she met other people. She shared Merrill's prejudices, is all. And why not? They were both from the same clan and raised to see non-Dalish in the same ways.
To me, Lavellan is exactly what Solas called him; from a rather exceptional clan, more open to new ideas and new people than most Dalish. I thought it was rather cool to be able to see such a new perspective of the Dalish, in fact. Far removed from the anti-human, arrogant Dalish I got to know in the first two games.
Because you decided that your Mahariel isn't like that.
Exactly!
Retour en haut