342 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Because you didn't like playing the character that way ... well, Jedi.  I didn't LIKE playing Mahariel the way you did.  The story didn't feel "correct" to me until I played Mahariel the way I did, and then I didn't really like Mahariel.  I had one single successful playthrough with a Mahariel and that was enough for me.

 

But the reason I was confused was because you said you wanted to play a Dalish that wasn't anti-human, and the only reason Maharial wasn't anti-human was because YOU made her that way. I don't really see why it only makes sense that way.

[phyreblade74]

But the reason I was confused was because you said you wanted to play a Dalish that wasn't anti-human, and the only reason Maharial wasn't anti-human was because YOU made her that way. I don't really see why it only makes sense that way.

 

I never saw Mahariel as anything other than the Dalish hunter willing to put an arrow in a human's face, which is how she was introduced to me.  What earthly sense does it make, that THAT character is suddenly going to be like, "Oh let's save all humans from a horrible fate, just cause I drank this darkspawn blood ..."?  That kind of story would never make sense to me. 

 

I'm actually bemused, that you can't wrap your head around how different people are going to interpret the story differently than you.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I never saw Mahariel as anything other than the Dalish hunter willing to put an arrow in a human's face, which is how she was introduced to me.  What earthly sense does it make, that THAT character is suddenly going to be like, "Oh let's save all humans from a horrible fate, just cause I drank this darkspawn blood ..."?  That kind of story would never make sense to me. 

 

I'm actually bemused, that you can't wrap your head around how different people are going to interpret the story differently than you.

 

But why did you see Maharial that way? You said you wanted to play a Dalish Elf that didn't hate humans and The Warden's personality is up to the player.

 

The part I can't wrap my head around is that you said you wanted to play a Dalish character one way, and then intentionally did not take the opportunity to do so. And then you said you were happy you finally could play an elf the way you wanted in the third game. 

 

It's not like I don't understand that people want to play differently than I do, but you sound like you played differently than even what you said you wanted to do.

[phyreblade74]

But why did you see Maharial that way? You said you wanted to play a Dalish Elf that didn't hate humans and The Warden's personality is up to the player.

 

The part I can't wrap my head around is that you said you wanted to play a Dalish character one way, and then intentionally did not take the opportunity to do so. And then you said you were happy you finally could play an elf the way you wanted in the third game. 

 

I've said WHY I saw Mahariel as I did several times already. 

 

The opening scenes of the story show her pointing an arrow straight in some human's face, fully willing and prepared to kill him.  If she does kill him, she expresses no remorse, no regret and no sorrow.  She walks away feeling and acting fully justified in having killed the human.  If she doesn't kill him, she gets some speech from Tamlen about why she should have killed him. 

 

For me, the story presents the Dalish as singularly anti-human straight off and I just couldn't make sense of those characters suddenly becoming unbiased and openly accepting of non-Dalish after that introduction.  It was like, head-spinning around confusing when I tried to RP the character as someone open-minded and tolerant, so I just gave up and accepted Mahariel wasn't.  And, yes, I did want a Dalish character who was open-minded and tolerant.  That wasn't Mahariel, shrug.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I've said WHY I saw Mahariel as I did several times already. 

 

The opening scenes of the story show her pointing an arrow straight in some human's face, fully willing and prepared to kill him.  If she does kill him, she expresses no remorse, no regret and no sorrow.  She walks away feeling and acting fully justified in having killed the human.  If she doesn't kill him, she gets some speech from Tamlen about why she should have killed him. 

 

For me, the story presents the Dalish as singularly anti-human straight off and I just couldn't make sense of those characters suddenly becoming unbiased and openly accepting of non-Dalish after that introduction.  It was like, head-spinning around confusing when I tried to RP the character as someone open-minded and tolerant, so I just gave up and accepted Mahariel wasn't.  And, yes, I did want a Dalish character who was open-minded and tolerant.  That wasn't Mahariel, shrug.

 

But you're assuming that all Dalish must be the same. Or that all Dalish are murder happy. One of the very first dialogue options you get is telling Tamlen that he judges humans too harshly. Also if you do let them go, Tamlen doesn't say they should have killed them. He actually drops the subject completely. Duncan didn't really suffer a lot of racism when he encountered any of the clan members, even though he was a stranger.

 

The idea that Maharial was prepared and willing to kill him is still something you, as a player, decide. 

[phyreblade74]

But you're assuming that all Dalish must be the same. Or that all Dalish are murder happy. One of the very first dialogue options you get is telling Tamlen that he judges humans too harshly. Also if you do let them go, Tamlen doesn't say they should have killed them. He actually drops the subject completely. Duncan didn't really suffer a lot of racism when he encountered any of the clan members, even though he was a stranger.

 

The idea that Maharial was prepared and willing to kill him is still something you, as a player, decide. 

 

And you're assuming that Mahariel is this sweetheart who suddenly becomes exceptionally and uniquely open-minded and tolerant, when she's not initially presented that way.  WHY would Mahariel tell Tamlen he judges humans too harshly?  WHY would Mahariel be anymore tolerant of humans than the typical Dalish?  She cares so much for Tamlen she mourns him through the entire game, and you expect me to believe she's soooo different from him?

 

Jedi, I have no issue with how you view the game, how it makes sense to you.  It's your story, make it what you want, shape it as you see fit.  I'm only doing the same.  I'm just not you, shrug.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

And you're assuming that Mahariel is this sweetheart who suddenly becomes exceptionally and uniquely open-minded and tolerant, when she's not initially presented that way.  WHY would Mahariel tell Tamlen he judges humans too harshly?  WHY would Mahariel be anymore tolerant of humans than the typical Dalish?  She cares so much for Tamlen she mourns him through the entire game, and you expect me to believe she's soooo different from him?

 

Jedi, I have no issue with how you view the game, how it makes sense to you.  It's your story, make it what you want, shape it as you see fit.  I'm only doing the same.  I'm just not you, shrug.

 

But my point is that he or she isn't initially presented any way. Maharial could be anything. That's up to the player to decide. There could be any number of reasons why Maharial is the way they are. It's up to the player to imagine. There's no reason they couldn't be. Hating humans is not a necessary feature of being Dalish.

 

Also, you can be friends with someone without being the same as them or agreeing with them about everything. But also I don't think that are a huge amount of references to Tamlen throughout the game anyway.

 

It just strikes me as strange to assume the worst about a character you control, despite admitting to preferring to play them differently. 

[phyreblade74]

But my point is that he or she isn't initially presented any way. Maharial could be anything. That's up to the player to decide. There could be any number of reasons why Maharial is the way they are. It's up to the player to imagine. There's no reason they couldn't be. Hating humans is not a necessary feature of being Dalish.

 

Also, you can be friends with someone without being the same as them or agreeing with them about everything. But also I don't think that are a huge amount of references to Tamlen throughout the game anyway.

 

It just strikes me as strange to assume the worst about a character you control, despite admitting to preferring to play them differently. 

 

This is really, really simple.  That's how I felt about Mahariel when I -- I'm the player! -- when I was introduced to her.  Every option to make her different, to me the player -- choosing those options felt wrong, it felt alien.  It was like trying to make Mahariel something she's NOT, so I didn't.  I played her exactly as I felt she was, exactly as she made sense to me.  Anything else felt weird, strange, and I just didn't like it.

[Lady Artifice]

My first impulse was to play Mahariel as deeply anti-heroic and a little ruthless. I think the reason was that I didn't particularly like the Origin at the time. I tried, and I detested it. I scrapped my initial Dalish character, and then created one with a very cautious and practical approach, who wasn't a xenophobe. 

 

I think that's a key factor, the Dalish stereotype is all tied up with xenophobia, but characters who go against that type are generally going to be more endearing to most players. I think an elf who doesn't hate humans makes just as much as a human who doesn't hate elves, and we have the opportunity to play that kind of character if we want to. They wouldn't be entirely alone. They have characters like Merrill and Cillian to keep them company. 

[phyreblade74]

My first impulse was to play Mahariel as deeply anti-heroic and a little ruthless. I think the reason was that I didn't particularly like the Origin at the time. I tried, and I detested it. I scrapped my initial Dalish character, and then created one with a very cautious and practical approach, who wasn't a xenophobe. 

 

I think that's a key factor, the Dalish stereotype is all tied up with xenophobia, but characters who go against that type are generally going to be more endearing to most players. I think an elf who doesn't hate humans makes just as much as a human who doesn't hate elves, and we have the opportunity to play that kind of character if we want to. They wouldn't be entirely alone. They have characters like Merrill and Cillian to keep them company. 

 

Nothing wrong with playing the story exactly as it most appeals to you, nope!

[Vit246]

I dislike this use of the word xenophobia with the Dalish because their fear of humans is hardly that irrational or unreasonable.

 

*EDIT*: I'm not saying the Dalish can never be wrong, but just try to really see things from their perspective, and maybe you can see why some of them act the way they do. Yes, they can be prickly, but think about why. What makes them that way?

[Master Warder Z_]

I dislike this use of the word xenophobia with the Dalish because their fear of humans is hardly that irrational or unreasonable.

*cough*

[Master Warder Z_]

I didn't find the Dalish PC that overly more interesting then a Dwarf or Qunari truth be told

[phyreblade74]

I dislike this use of the word xenophobia with the Dalish because their fear of humans is hardly that irrational or unreasonable.

 

I think xenophobia is a rather tame word.  Other words can be so much more loaded.

[Master Warder Z_]

I think xenophobia is a rather tame word. Other words can be so much more loaded.

Like a doctrine of racially superior jingoism?

[phyreblade74]

Like a doctrine of racially superior jingoism?

 

Oh, yea, that would be pretty intense.  I was thinking simpler, more blunt words, though.

[Bowie Hawkins]

This is really, really simple.  That's how I felt about Mahariel when I -- I'm the player! -- when I was introduced to her.  Every option to make her different, to me the player -- choosing those options felt wrong, it felt alien.  

 

There is no reason why you couldn't have felt some other way, though, because it was you, not Bioware, who decided that Mahariel was "doggedly anti-human, head-in-the-past snotty and arrogant a Dalish".

[phyreblade74]

There is no reason why you couldn't have felt some other way, though, because it was you, not Bioware, who decided that Mahariel was "doggedly anti-human, head-in-the-past snotty and arrogant a Dalish".

 

LMBO ... I'm impressed you think people have so much control over their feelings.  Hey, I don't even feel I need to justify how I perceived Mahariel, actually.  It was my game and I didn't like her.  C'est la vie!

[Felya87]

I actually miss the anti-human lines My wardens could say in DAO. Since I roleplayed a human hating city elf that warmed up to human characters later (she became only anti-noble) when seeing proof of actually good humans, and a racist For the entire game mage elf (My kill'em all psycho character) I miss the chance to having such freedom of roleplay.
At most, in DAI I can be sliglty pro elves(and not so much. There aren't even ways to answer agressively to some racist idiot) or anti-chantry, but not pro elven gods.

[The Lone Shadow]

I actually miss the anti-human lines My wardens could say in DAO. Since I roleplayed a human hating city elf that warmed up to human characters later (she became only anti-noble) when seeing proof of actually good humans, and a racist For the entire game mage elf (My kill'em all psycho character) I miss the chance to having such freedom of roleplay.
At most, in DAI I can be sliglty pro elves(and not so much. There aren't even ways to answer agressively to some racist idiot) or anti-chantry, but not pro elven gods.

 

Me too, so I just headcannon that Lavellan is making anti-human comments in her head.

[Felya87]

Me too, so I just headcannon that Lavellan is making anti-human comments in her head.

Same. Or that she is grumbling almost silently elven curses that the Others in the party (minus Solas) don't understand.

[Serelir]

Same. Or that she is grumbling almost silently elven curses that the Others in the party (minus Solas) don't understand.

Exactly! It's a regular lovefest for the Dalish. Oh, you're an elf? Let's flirt! You don't believe in the Maker? Well, it doesn't make any difference! We can all have a good laugh together about how elves kill babies. Sure, it's nice to instantly have a bunch of human friends. Maybe they treat all their slaves that way until they don't need them anymore. It's kind of like being an elf Dovahkiin in Skyrim. I'm just glad I wasn't forced to play as a human - I'll take what I can get. 

[Bowie Hawkins]

LMBO ... I'm impressed you think people have so much control over their feelings.  

 

You were complaining about how horrible the Dalish Warden is like it was Bioware's fault, when the one who made the Dalish Warden horrible was you. That's like the old story about the person at the restaurant complaining about everything they get served and ending by saying "And the portions are too small."

[phyreblade74]

You were complaining about how horrible the Dalish Warden is like it was Bioware's fault, when the one who made the Dalish Warden horrible was you. That's like the old story about the person at the restaurant complaining about everything they get served and ending by saying "And the portions are too small."

 

Oh heck no, I most certainly was not complaining over Bioware's story!  The absolute BEST stories are the ones that emotionally impact you, rather.  Those characters that can move you, can make you THINK, can make you FEEL something -- I don't have to like the crap out of them by the time all's said and done.  But I want them to *affect* me, nonetheless.  Bioware's story-telling is very very character-driven in their impact, and I love that!

 

No, this entire line of discussion came when someone indicated that those who enjoyed Lavellan as a character had "always" been in some sort of love fest with the Dalish, rather, and I explained that I never was until I was introduced to Lavellan.  That's all.

[Bowie Hawkins]

Oh heck no, I most certainly was not complaining over Bioware's story!  

 

When you wrote "the story presents the Dalish as singularly anti-human straight off and I just couldn't make sense of those characters suddenly becoming unbiased and openly accepting of non-Dalish after that introduction" it looked as through you were doing precisely that.