94 réponses à ce sujet

[mosspit]

knownastherat wrote...

mosspit wrote...

Im guessing it is odd for you since you have equated "strong" with dps.

Actually not, as I said initially I equated "strong class" with a class by ifself, not in context of teamwork or benefits, in the first place.

Dunno .. s/he was strong .. but only when s/he had xzy others around. Sure, matter of interpretation of her/his strenght.

Ok thats how you interpret it. I personally interpret strength in terms of combat roles. be it dps, cc, buff/debuff, tank. Normally classes/builds are meant to excel in only 1 or 2 roles. Anything more, there will be a lack of balance.

[Husqvarna Nox]

jsachun wrote...

I'd like to see you deal with that ogre by yourself at Low Level at Ostagar.

Easy Kite with a mage,

[Tirigon]

soteria wrote...

Realmzmaster, are you implying that the other classes can solo the game without potions? I hesitate to say anything is impossible, but without extreme stealth cheese, I can't see warriors or rogues soloing the entire game without potions.

We've already been over this before... whether or not something has been done or can be done is not relevant to the question of whether a mage makes it easier. And, I'm guessing you were still using potions in those two runs, eh?

Is the game easier with 1 or 2 mages than with none? Definitely YES.

Is the game easier with 3 mages and (therefore necessarily) either no tank or no rogue? Definitely NO.

Is the game as easy as possible with Mage, Warrior, and Rogue in the party + the class you like best personally?
Imo, a definite YES, too.

That´s why it is a party game. Because it´s best to have every class in your party.

[Realmzmaster]

flagondotcom wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
For example a 20 level mage againt a 20 level rogue who wins. I assume the mage would win, but only if the mage survives the rogue's first attack.
 

In this game, even after the 1.02 patch on PC, any 20th level mage will have Crushing Prison...and in the time CP is active (and damaging the rogue) the mage will get enough other things going that the rogue is toast before getting to make another (or even first) attack.

Only some combination of high spell-resist gear, or starting the combat stealthed, would allow a melee rogue a chance to close to melee distance.  AoS would be the only other way the rogue could win, I'd expect.

I stated in the post the mage would win if the rogue is not shealthed. If the rogue is shealthed and gets within melee range. The mage would have to survive the first attack to have a chance. If the first attack hits it will be a critical. If the first attack stuns the mage it is game over. If the rogue is shealth and lets loose with AoS. If it hits the mage loses.
If the rogue is not shealthed the mage wins, because of crushing prison and other spells.
If the rogue is a ranger, then you can have a shealthed rogue with pet. Send the pet to attack the mage and pepper the mage with arrows or attack shealthed at melee range.
If the ranger is unshealthed the mage gets a chance at using crushing prison. The ranger will have sent his pet (say a great bear) to attack. The mage has to take care of the attack from the pet. If the ranger has enough constitution to survive the prison the mage is in trouble. Or if the mage concentrates on the great bear it can resist a great deal of spells. Let the bear slam the mage and rage. The Ranger lets loose AoS.

[dkjestrup]

It's not "Shealthed" it's "Stealthed"!!



The situation of a Rogue being in stealth and getting the first hit, s/he would use dirty fighting or riposte, they wouldn't attack. Then they would use the other after the stun wore off.



The mage would win though, even with stealth. Cast Glyph of Repulsion at their feet, and the rogue can't backstab. The Mage could then set up AoE attacks all around him, to be guaranteed to hit the rogue.



The rogue's best shot at winning, would be as an archer. Stealth>Shattering Shot>AoS>Pinning shot and try to kill the mage before they can cast.



But the mage could still win if they got the first shot it.



And please don't try to prove that mages aren't the strongest class in the game. We all know they are. Just because a rogue archer can win 50% of the time in a dual, doesn't make the Mage worse.



Firstly, heal is very overrated, especially for a solo. Using potions would be much more effective than healing.



Secondly, Mages don't win soloing the game from spamming pots/heals. If you truly think that then we're wasting our time arguing with you. Mage solo the game through crowd control.

[Tirigon]

dkjestrup wrote...


And please don't try to prove that mages aren't the strongest class in the game. We all know they are. Just because a rogue archer can win 50% of the time in a dual, doesn't make the Mage worse.

This, ser, is wrong.

Mages have best CC, but rogues are much better in DPS and warriors are better at tanking, while still doing much more damage than a mage.

[soteria]

*boggle*



Cast Cone of Cold on a group of archers, or any group of enemies. Now cast virulent walking bomb on them. Now cast stonefist on that same person with the walking bomb, and congrats, you just did 250 damage to all of them, and probably killed them in the process even without spell might. That's just one of many ways a mage can do loads of damage in a hurry.

[Tirigon]

soteria wrote...

*boggle*

Cast Cone of Cold on a group of archers, or any group of enemies. Now cast virulent walking bomb on them. Now cast stonefist on that same person with the walking bomb, and congrats, you just did 250 damage to all of them, and probably killed them in the process even without spell might. That's just one of many ways a mage can do loads of damage in a hurry.

Well, maybe you are playing on easy, but on my playthrough (Nightmare) you don´t come close enough to archers for CoC, and anyways, the freeze is much too short.....

I found my Dual wielding warrior to be a hell of a lot stronger, though much less fun.

[soteria]

Actually, I demonstrate doing exactly what I'm saying (though with Walking Bomb, not virulent) in the spell combos video in my signature. On nightmare. And as I said, it doesn't have to be archers, it could be any clumped up group of enemies. Plus, you could always cast walking bomb before casting cone of cold.



Regardless, that's just one way of dealing a lot of damage. Mana clash, entropic death, storm of the century, or just multiple aoe spells + affliction hex. Or, for single targets, vulnerability hex, affliction hex, and cycle through vwb, crushing prison, arcane bolt, frost, and lightning.

[mosspit]

Tirigon wrote...

Well, maybe you are playing on easy, but on my playthrough (Nightmare) you don´t come close enough to archers for CoC, and anyways, the freeze is much too short.....

I found my Dual wielding warrior to be a hell of a lot stronger, though much less fun.

I believe you are generalizing dps as being single target or dmg per hit. Rogues have the highest damage potential in the single target category. But that does not mean a skillspam dw warrior or an AoE spellcaster has lower dps.

[Snorepoke]

There isn't much value in determining strength of class by theorycrafting who would win in a duel--it's not a readily available option to test by experiment (no multiplayer) and it's not relevant to the gameplay (no multiplayer). I would even say that there's very little value in saying "X class is stronger than Y class" because "strength" is something that really needs to be defined. I could say 2H warrior builds are the "strongest" class because they tend to have the most attribute points in Strength! My point is that it very much depends on the parameters we're working with. Highest single target DPS? We can test that, to some extent. Largest spike damage output? We can play with that too. But "strongest?" Well, what do you mean? Defining your parameters can avoid a lot of misunderstanding and [hilarious] flamewars.

[Tirigon]

soteria wrote...

Regardless, that's just one way of dealing a lot of damage. Mana clash, entropic death, storm of the century, or just multiple aoe spells + affliction hex. Or, for single targets, vulnerability hex, affliction hex, and cycle through vwb, crushing prison, arcane bolt, frost, and lightning.

Sure you can do great damage as mage. But you need to plan, use spells wisely etc.....


With a Dual wielder you can win a fight by setting tactics to:

• activate dual striking
• activate [the thing for more attackspeed; forgot name]
• attack nearest enemy
• HP< 50%: Drink potion

and then go afk.....

You can´t do that with a mage.

[Tirigon]

Hollorous wrote...

In this playthrough, I can honestly say it's far FAR more easier on my warrior than it was on my mage. I don't even need to be careful, just rush in and zerg things, whereas on my mage I had to constantly CC tough enemies, set up aoe rotations between me and morrigan.

Mages are not OP, just extremely versatile.

I totally agree.

[Ferelden Templar]

For me a well-built Mage and DW Warrior on Momentum/Berserk are on par with each other.



I'd still give the edge to the mage on battlefield control options. But no mage area damage can ever match a DW Warrior in clearing a field.

[soteria]

Are mages needed? Watch this video, and tell me if you think it would be possible to do this without a mage:  I'm going to try, but on nightmare without potions I'm not sure it's possible. Maybe.

There are a lot of reasons mages are more powerful than the other classes--and when I say "more powerful" I don't mean "easier to faceroll your way through encounters." Their resource, mana, is easier to restore than stamina. They have more and better CC. They have the best aoe damage. They are the only class that can heal the group. They are the best class at ranged damage. Only a mage can set up one of the best ways of killing a group quickly--the shatter combo.

Whether or not it's possible to beat the game without a mage doesn't even enter into the discussion. Frankly, with a well-built character, this game just isn't difficult with or without a mage. It's just too easy to make an indestructible character.

Also, what do warriors have that is OP? Momentum. What do mages have that is OP? Blood wound, fireball, paralysis explosion, mana clash, force field, storm of the century...

Modifié par soteria, 30 janvier 2010 - 06:03 .

[x-president]

Tirigon wrote...
Is the game easier with 1 or 2 mages than with none? Definitely YES.

Is the game easier with 3 mages and (therefore necessarily) either no tank or no rogue? Definitely NO.

3 Mages own.  I've played one game like that already and I'm playing a current game with all shapeshifting mages.  No problems what so ever.

[Tirigon]

soteria wrote...

Also, what do warriors have that is OP? Momentum. What do mages have that is OP? Blood wound, fireball, paralysis explosion, mana clash, force field, storm of the century...

So, I´ll enjoy disagreeing with this one by one:

• Blood Wound: 1 point for you, I´ll admit. Best spell in the game, Imo.
• Fireball: Nice, but NO WAY overpowered. Dual sweep or the 2h weapons AoE-Attack does same, lategame even more damage without hurting allies...
• Paralysis explosion: Never used, so I can´t say how strong it is; But a skill you never use can´t be so good I´d say, at least I never felt like it would help now, while I often missed a Dual-wielding warrior
• Mana clash: Nice against mages, but useless against other enemies, that is MOST enemies
• Force Field: Helpful sometimes, but NO WAY overpowered; The fact that the protected ally can´t fight anymore, or the disabled enemy can´t be wounded, prevents it from being OP. Besides, the last patch nerfed it quite hard...
• Storm of the century: SUXX like hell.... Too long casttime, and it tends to hurt your team more than the enemy... I honestly think this is one of the most useless skills in the game.

[Tirigon]

x-president wrote...

3 Mages own.  I've played one game like that already and I'm playing a current game with all shapeshifting mages.  No problems what so ever.

So what? I had so less problems (on Nightmare) with my Dualwielding warrior that I stopped playing on Lv 12 because I was totally bored......

[dkjestrup]

Fireball is so underrated. Sure, you can do more damage with Whirlwind. Whirlwind is close range! Fireball is one of the best ways in the game to eliminate archers.

Paralysis Explosion is the best form of crowd control in the game, just about. You can use the Glyph of Repulsion to keep enemies in a room, for a powerful AoE for example. Like Storm of the Century.

Mana Clash is extremely overpowered. There's a mage every 2-3 groups of enemies. And considering mages are the enemies you have to watch out for...

Forcefield is way overpowered too. Taunt + Forcefield is completely broken.

BTW, awesome video Soteria! 

Modifié par dkjestrup, 30 janvier 2010 - 09:20 .

[soteria]

Tirigon wrote...

So, I´ll enjoy disagreeing with this one by one:

[*]Blood Wound: 1 point for you, I´ll admit. Best spell in the game, Imo.

[*]Fireball: Nice, but NO WAY overpowered. Dual sweep or the 2h weapons AoE-Attack does same, lategame even more damage without hurting allies...


[*]Paralysis explosion: Never used, so I can´t say how strong it is; But a skill you never use can´t be so good I´d say, at least I never felt like it would help now, while I often missed a Dual-wielding warrior


[*]Mana clash: Nice against mages, but useless against other enemies, that is MOST enemies


[*]Force Field: Helpful sometimes, but NO WAY overpowered; The fact that the protected ally can´t fight anymore, or the disabled enemy can´t be wounded, prevents it from being OP. Besides, the last patch nerfed it quite hard...


[*]Storm of the century: SUXX like hell.... Too long casttime, and it tends to hurt your team more than the enemy... I honestly think this is one of the most useless skills in the game.

Glad you enjoyed the video, dk.  I just love that fight, and wish there were more like it.  Too bad the denerim guards encounter doesn't include some mages and a boss level enemy.
[*]Are you really comparing fireball to dual weapon sweep and 2h sweep?  It has about the same cooldown, couldn't compare them exactly but fireball's cooldown is pretty short.  It has a huge radius, and doesn't require facing the exact right way and a really tight group like dual weapon sweep.  Fireball also has the advantage of being long range.  I can knock down a group of archers with it from across the map.


[*]Paralysis explosion... saying "if I've never used it, it can't be that great," is some of the worst logic I've seen in a while.  I didn't think momentum would be very good, so I ignored it for most of my first game.  And I completed that game, so it must not have been very good, amiright?

[*]Mana clash--as dk said, mages are typically the enemies you want to kill the fastest, and that do the most damage.  It one-shots even the yellow ones, and sometimes even the bosses if you use hexes first.  Also, you can use it from the other side of a wall, in complete safety.  And the radius is as big as anything short of storm of the century, for reasons I can't begin to guess.

[*]Force field is stupidly good because the enemies are stupidly bad at realizing they are beating on an invincible enemy.  The last patch hardly touched it, except that now there is a 10 second window where you're not invincible.  good thing cone of cold can fill that window with a 9 second duration, huh?  Or you could just take two mages with cone of cold and keep the high dragon frozen for pretty much the whole fight.

[*]Storm of the century--now see, this is where multiple mages really start to shine.  Have one cast glyph of repulsion while another casts glyph of paralysis, and now everyone is paralyzed, including bosses that normally couldn't be paralyzed.  Now have one mage cast blizzard while the other casts spell might + tempest, and boom, sotc, without any way of being interrupted.  If you really wanted to get unfair you could throw an earthquake or grease or mass paralyze or fireball or blood wound in there as well, just to make sure no one gets out, and add a vulnerability hex just for kicks.  While you're at it, why not cast death cloud + affliction hex + death hex on the boss?  Now everyone is taking 100+ damage a second, and except for the boss, they're probably still paralyzed.

Modifié par soteria, 30 janvier 2010 - 09:35 .

[soteria]

For Cauthrien, you can't bring Shale, and I'm specifically talking about doing it without leaving the room or using potions. Whirlwind and dual weapon sweep won't hit all 4 archers in a group, as I recall--you'd be better off spamming 4 flasks on them, which would probably work. I'm curious, have you actually done what you're suggesting (on nightmare w/o potions or leaving the room), or are you just theorizing?



I'm definitely not going to say anything is impossible, but in my experience with that fight, if more than three archers manages to get off a scattershot, someone is going to die. Regardless, I think it's hard to argue that it's anywhere near as easy as it is with a mage.

[soteria]

If you can, make a video; I'd love to see it. I'm planning on trying this next time myself.