Guest_StreetMagic_*
Even if Marksman worked, wouldn't it just get in the way of using Concussive Shot? I prefer Concussive Shot because it has a fast recharge (6.5 seconds) and therefore is a good detonator. Her and Garrus, both with Concussive Shot make a good team for my Engineer.
I don't even know. Never got a chance to use it. She's a good detonator/primer in general though... I think that's her real strength.
Letting the timer run out on Grissom Academy is gut-wrenching, as a Jack fan/romancer -- character I love combined with an awful, awful fate.
That said, I did do it once. That whole playthrough was a nightmare, though. It ended with TIM killing Shepard, hahaha.
I can off everybody else without feeling anything.
This is the only reason I DO want to kill Garrus.
He's the one of the ones I don't like killing -- don't get me wrong. I like him for my own reasons - but I'm a little annoyed how he's written as the ultimate standup bro or something. That was a choice of the writers..not necessarily a natural development in players' minds. While some characters simply didn't exist until the second game.
It might have been interesting to have a Virmire type scenario between Liara and Garrus in Mass Effect 3. Or Tali and Garrus. Of course anytime you have a scenario like that in a game for some players it isn't going to be a tough choice, since they'll either hate one or both of the characters involved. But for most players those three were fan favorites, and it would be a tough choice and the death that followed would be emotionally impactful.
So long as the next game isn't the first of a multi-game series I hope it doesn't flinch from putting characters in the line of fire, with no way out for some. On the other hand if it is the first part of a multi-game series its best to limit those sort of choices to the final chapter so it doesn't create multiple branching paths or fates that the writers have trouble accounting for in a sequel.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
It might have been interesting to have a Virmire type scenario between Liara and Garrus in Mass Effect 3. Or Tali and Garrus. Of course anytime you have a scenario like that in a game for some players it isn't going to be a tough choice, since they'll either hate one or both of the characters involved. But for most players those three were fan favorites, and it would be a tough choice and the death that followed would be emotionally impactful.
So long as the next game isn't the first of a multi-game series I hope it doesn't flinch from putting characters in the line of fire, with no way out for some. On the other hand if it is the first part of a multi-game series its best to limit those sort of choices to the final chapter so it doesn't create multiple branching paths or fates that the writers have trouble accounting for in a sequel.
They were gonna have one with Liara and VS, I believe.. in the original Thessia with Kai Leng (rather than just facing off the VS alone in the Coup earlier).
I'm slighting kidding though about Garrus.. I really do like him. I just think they wrote it with a little too much awareness of his fanbase (also the change in writer makes a difference). It's a little jarring coming from ME1 and 2, when this type of "bro" stuff was more understated. You read whatever you wanted into Garrus.. rather than have it told to you.
They were gonna have one with Liara and VS, I believe.. in the original Thessia with Kai Leng (rather than just facing off the VS alone in the Coup earlier).
I'm slighting kidding though about Garrus.. I really do like him. I just think they wrote it with a little too much awareness of his fanbase (also the change in writer makes a difference). It's a little jarring coming from ME1 and 2, when this type of "bro" stuff was more understated. You read whatever you wanted into Garrus.. rather than have it told to you.
I kind of agree with them scrapping the original version of Thessia because it would have required two mandatory squadmates on that mission. I'm okay with having one mandatory squadmate on some missions, but two would be a bit much for me. Also between that version of Thessia and the Coup the game would probably be putting the VS on the chopping block too often.
I kind of wish they had something like ME2's suicide mission for the end run of Mass Effect 3, except with all of the surviving ME2 squadmates joining for the end run and being selectable as well (like the arena in the Citadel DLC), and with there being some unavoidable casualties. I'd port Liara's Virmire from Thessia to there and not have the VS be the other half. Having said all of that I also wish the ending was quite different and worth the sacrifices the team would make in getting there. But that's a whole different discussion, and dead horses and all that.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I kind of agree with them scrapping the original version of Thessia because it would have required two mandatory squadmates on that mission. I'm okay with having one mandatory squadmate on some missions, but two would be a bit much for me. Also between that version of Thessia and the Coup the game would probably be putting the VS on the chopping block too often.
I kind of wish they had something like ME2's suicide mission for the end run of Mass Effect 3, except with all of the surviving ME2 squadmates joining for the end run and being selectable as well (like the arena in the Citadel DLC), and with there being some unavoidable casualties. Having said that I also wish the ending was quite different and worth the sacrifices the team would make in getting there. But that's a whole different discussion, and dead horses and all that.
The VS still wasn't a squadmate at this point in the story. And it was only scrapped because of a lot of little surrounding stories -- especially Javik. They had to rethink Javik because they were running out of time... and then they just salvaged what they could of him as DLC.
Basically though, Ash or Kaidan kind of become the hero of their own story once they become Spectres. They are investigating Prothean stuff, and you run into them twice, I think. Once at Eden Prime (which goes badly between you and them), and finally at Thessia. The kicker is that Kai Leng is with part of their "squad" posing as some Alliance rep (i.e. like maya brooks), feeding ideas into their head that you can't be trusted and you're still with Cerberus. Once the jig is up, Kai Leng finally forces a Virmire like situation between the VS and Liara, and gets away.. just like Saren did. And afterwards, you get Javik.
I'm not a fan of Garrus. I don't see the bro thing. During his goodbye in London he says I'll meet you at the bar. I would like to ask him when did we have a drink together.
As far as the Virmire decision or whatever on Thessia, if that's what was originally planned, it wouldn't have to be 2 mandatory squadmates, it can be whatever squadmate that is taken. It would make it interesting if the player had to choose between edibot and Liara. I would have it setup that if the player saves Liara, the synthesis ending gets locked since the platform is gone.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I'm not a fan of Garrus. I don't see the bro thing. During his goodbye in London he says I'll meet you at the bar. I would like to ask him when did we have a drink together.
As far as the Virmire decision or whatever on Thessia, if that's what was originally planned, it wouldn't have to be 2 mandatory squadmates, it can be whatever squadmate that is taken. It would make it interesting if the player had to choose between edibot and Liara. I would have it setup that if the player saves Liara, the synthesis ending gets locked since the platform is gone.
Read my post above. It wasn't 2 mandatory squadmates. Just Liara. Thessia was first conceived as the first recruitment area for Javik and Ash/Kaidan. So they would always be there. The Coup didn't play out the same way originally. Even that sounded more complex in the original version. Udina's behavior seemed like it made more sense.
But anyways, I don't mean to beat a dead horse. He just mentioned Virmire decisions and it reminded me of this.
Read my post above. It wasn't 2 mandatory squadmates. Just Liara. Thessia was first conceived as the first recruitment area for Javik and Ash/Kaidan. So they would always be there. The Coup didn't play out the same way originally. Even that sounded more complex in the original version. Udina's behavior seemed like it made more sense.
I read it. I would just have it setup that any squadmate can die and not just Ashley/Kaidan or Liara
It seems with the posts I've read of yours mentioning what might've happened in the original script, I would like to see Bioware remake ME3 with those scenarios in the game
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I read it. I would just have it setup that any squadmate can die and not just Ashley/Kaidan or Liara
It seems with the posts I've read of yours mentioning what might've happened in the original script, I would like to see Bioware remake ME3 with those scenarios in the game
Oh I'd like to see it too.. but I doubt it'd happen now. I also think they salvaged this cooler part of Kai Leng and made Maya Brooks. This is the kind of deception they intended with him. Now Kai Leng is worthless, and Maya ends up the better character.
I'm prepared to kill every character at least once. But, if I kill Mordin, it has to be on the suicide mission. I just couldn't shoot him in cold blood like that. He's possibly my favourite character, and it's just too sad. 
It's hard enough siding with the geth (losing Tali), or the quarians (killing Legion), or betraying Wrex. I haven't shot either Virmire Survivor during the Citadel coup yet, but I think I could manage it on my badShep PT.
All this talk about original scripts... You do realize there are two sides of the coin? There was a reason why the original script was changed, probably several reasons. The devs/writers probably had extensive debates on those issues, eventually leading them to change the script.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
All this talk about original scripts... You do realize there are two sides of the coin? There was a reason why the original script was changed, probably several reasons. The devs/writers probably had extensive debates on those issues, eventually leading them to change the script.
It wasn't that.. I remember they were really bummed out about not executing the original Javik stuff.. and pushed and pushed for extensions, but couldn't get them. So they just did what they could. They don't say this in so many words, but some of it is in the "Final Hours" app (not the details of the script though). You can see the disappointment on Hudson about this.
It's EA's fault. They're too used to cranking out annual sports games and seemingly don't know how to handle an RPG company. Or didn't. It seems like they learned their lesson with DAI.
I'm prepared to kill every character at least once. But, if I kill Mordin, it has to be on the suicide mission. I just couldn't shoot him in cold blood like that. He's possibly my favourite character, and it's just too sad.
I've done that a few times. When I know I'm going to sabotage the genophage, especially with Wrex alive, I have Mordin die during the suicide mission.
It wasn't that.. I remember they were really bummed out about not executing the original Javik stuff.. and pushed and pushed for extensions, but couldn't get them. So they just did what they could. It's EA's fault. They're too used to cranking out annual sports games and seemingly don't know how to handle an RPG company. Or didn't. It seems like they learned their lesson with DAI.
It may be a part of things. Changing the coup place in storyline, removing all connections of Leng to VS doesn't sound like they didn't have time to implement what they wanted. I can say with 99% certainty that the game was rushed but it's not the sole reason for the final script.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
It may be a part of things. Changing the coup place in storyline, removing all connections of Leng to VS doesn't sound like the didn't have time to implement what they wanted. I can say with 99% certainty that the game was rushed but it's not the sole reason for the final script.
Well yeah, there's always going to be tweaks and changes, but not revamping major elements unless they're forced to. That's all I'm talking about.
Well yeah, there's always going to be tweaks and changes, but not revamping major elements unless they're forced to. That's all I'm talking about.
Not sure about that. All kinds of changes can be done. A good writer should not be afraid to delete things if they don't work, even if they are awesome by themselves. In the end, we have no idea how the development process went, what were the reasons behind cutting down certain elements and/or introducing others. All I'm saying is that glimpses of the original script we've seen sound great to us, but we don't see the full picture.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Not sure about that. All kinds of changes can be done. A good writer should not be afraid to delete things if they don't work, even if they are awesome by themselves. In the end, we have no idea how the development process went, what were the reasons behind cutting down certain elements and/or introducing others. All I'm saying is that glimpses of the original script we've seen sound great to us, but we don't see the full picture.
I'm not acting like I'm privy to the details. I'm just saying they had a vision. They had ideas that were dear to them, but faced disappointment due to time constraints. I can't quote the Final Hours verbatim (and it's in a weird Adobe Air format), but they didn't want a Prothean DLC. It was supposed to be integrated into the main story. You can tell this much. They made necessary sacrifices to get the game out...that's different than an artistic decision.
And even if that was a design decision, then it's completely on Bioware's heads, where you're saying they intended to have first day DLC. My narrative is better, where it's on EA's head. 
Day one DLCs are obvious money grabs. I don't blame it on Bioware, it has EA written all over it. All I'm saying is that there are a lot of factors, many of which we have never seen and might never hear about. Time constraints and EA pressure is just one of them.
I'm pretty sure that the game would've been much better had they have another 12 months to work on it. But that doesn't mean that we would've had the original script in that game.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Day one DLCs are obvious money grabs. I don't blame it on Bioware, it has EA written all over it. All I'm saying is that there are a lot of factors, many of which we have never seen and might never hear about. Time constraints and EA pressure is just one of them.
I'm pretty sure that the game would've been much better had they have another 12 months to work on it. But that doesn't mean that we would've had the original script in that game.
We're in agreement then.
All I'm talking about is this part of the story. I'm well aware that all kinds of changes happen.. I don't make games, but I'm a musician. I don't create strictly down a linear path. Things develop organically. I'm just talking about Javik. Once that bit got scrapped, other little things hinged on it, and required changes elsewhere. It's like breaking a crucial spoke in a wheel. Kai Leng and the VS are two things affected by it.
It might have been interesting to have a Virmire type scenario between Liara and Garrus in Mass Effect 3. Or Tali and Garrus. Of course anytime you have a scenario like that in a game for some players it isn't going to be a tough choice, since they'll either hate one or both of the characters involved. But for most players those three were fan favorites, and it would be a tough choice and the death that followed would be emotionally impactful.
Tali already has her VS moment. Of course, it is fairly easy to circumvent with a half decent import, and if you don't really care for the geth's last minute sob story attempt at a retcon, than it really is practically a non decision since the quarians are worth more to the war effort as well. Could have been done a lot better.
Garrus and Liara both did need a similar moment, though. I've had an idea about Garrus's being included in in the 2nd Turian Platoon mission. Have him be the one responsible for disarming the bomb and dying in the process, or you can override him and chose Victus, who instead of redeeming himself fails (would be foreshadowed with some dialouge about him being a non optimal choice due to Garrus's tech skills or Victus's lack of them), and the bomb detonates with subsequent consequences to Krogan war assets and relations with the Turians. Would really test how far players are willing to go with following through on the "ruthless calculus of war" methodology that Garrus always espouses, and fit with the themes of his character arc. Are you willing to send him to death in the name of the best outcome for the war effort, even if he is your comrade?
Liara already had some concepts as mentioned, with the original Thessia/VS arc (which I like except for it yet again trying to kill the poor VS) and I think a potential suicide after the mission, but I really can't think of a tactful and thematically poignant way to kill her off that wouldn't just be more gratuitous "sacrifice" nonsense like with Mordin and Legion. Maybe someone else is more creative
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Tali already has her VS moment. Of course, it is fairly easy to circumvent with a half decent import, and if you don't really care for the geth's last minute sob story attempt at a retcon, than it really is practically a non decision since the quarians are worth more to the war effort as well.
Garrus and Liara both did need a similar moment, though. I've had an idea about Garrus's being included in in the 2nd Turian Platoon mission. Have him be the one responsible for disarming the bomb and dying in the process, or you can override him and chose Victus, who instead of redeeming himself fails (would be foreshadowed with some dialouge about him being a non optimal choice due to Garrus's tech skills or Victus's lack of them), and the bomb detonates with subsequent consequences to Krogan war assets and relations with the Turians. Would really test how far players are willing to go with following through on the "ruthless calculus of war" methodology that Garrus always espouses and fit with his character arc. Are you willing to send him to death in the name of the best outcome for the war effort, even if he is your comrade?
Liara already had some concepts as mentioned, with the original Thessia/VS arc (which I like except for it yet again trying to kill the poor VS) and I think a potential suicide, but I really can't think of another a tactful and thematically poignant way to kill her off that wouldn't just be more gratuitous "sacrifice" nonsense like with Mordin and Legion. Maybe someone else is more creative
I would loved to go back to Palaven to help evacuate the civilians when Garrus talks about the fleets pulling out. Maybe something bad could have happened there with Garrus. Or not. Like that cut content idea where Sidonis could rescue his dad, I think? But what if Garrus killed Sidonis? Uh oh...
Also, it would have been a good opportunity for other characters. Jack mentions rescuing civilians on Palaven during her romance, and Kal Reegar dies helping people there. Probably could have had Grunt healed up and in full force. Eh... but whatever. Instead we get emails and holograms. 
Tali already has her VS moment. Of course, it is fairly easy to circumvent with a half decent import, and if you don't really care for the geth's last minute sob story attempt at a retcon, than it really is practically a non decision since the quarians are worth more to the war effort as well. Could have been done a lot better.
My issue with Tali's Virmire was that is also a choice between the survival of whole factions, something I'm not a fan of for a couple reasons. The first is that is entirely too video gamey and doesn't make much sense realistically. The battle for Rannoch should neither end with the Quarians or the Geth completely annihilated, no matter who loses. It should determine the fate of the planet and who controls it, but the loser should still have plenty of ships and personnel left who either retreat or were not in the vicinity for the battle to begin with. The Geth in particular were spread out across the whole of what was formerly Quarian space, but even the Quarians should have had held some ships in reserve, particularly those with the civilians. The second is that making the destruction of whole factions optional is just a very bad idea if you ever plan to make sequels of that game. It is difficult enough to craft a satisfying sequel from a game where individual characters can have varying fates, let alone one where entire factions can be destroyed based on player choice.
I'd have rather Rannoch play out like the Orzammer choice in DA:O. You determine the future of Rannoch without erasing an entire faction from the series. On that note I'd have also dropped the whole Geth die in Destroy bit.
Tali had a Virmire moment? Ha. More like I don't give a crap about my people moment. She stands there doing nothing while Legion/gethvi uploads the code. Why didn't she make any attempt to stop it? She could've pushed it over the edge, use her knife or shoot the thing.
It's a little jarring coming from ME1 and 2, when this type of "bro" stuff was more understated. You read whatever you wanted into Garrus.. rather than have it told to you.
The only reason it was understated is because in ME1 it was entirely optional and in ME2 you were eventually stonewalled by the calibrations.
Come to think of it, its increased prominence may be a result of that last.
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