Guest_StreetMagic_*
The only reason it was understated is because in ME1 it was entirely optional and in ME2 you were eventually stonewalled by the calibrations.
Come to think of it, its increased prominence may be a result of that last.
The calibrations became part of his character though. He was chill and didn't have time for some "bro talk". Just tinkered around, like most dudes do.
Tali had a Virmire moment? Ha. More like I don't give a crap about my people moment. She stands there doing nothing while Legion/gethvi uploads the code. Why didn't she make any attempt to stop it? She could've pushed it over the edge, use her knife or shot the thing.
Was she sure Shepard would let her?
Probably I'm reading too much into it but in a world with unlimited resources and time, this would've been a great character struggle. She's known Shepard for years, but can she really predict what he'll do?
The calibrations became part of his character though. He was chill and didn't have time for some "bro talk". Just tinkered around, like most dudes do.
So we're off in deep space on our way to someone else's daddy issues, and he doesn't have time to talk?
I don't know about that. The calibrations were pretty clear to me- an end of line sign for the friendship path. No doubt all squadmates had them but I don't remember the others as well because they didn't come as quickly.
Was she sure Shepard would let her?
Probably I'm reading too much into it but in a world with unlimited resources and time, this would've been a great character struggle. She's known Shepard for years, but can she really predict what he'll do?
Regards of what Shepard would do, I wouldn't stand there while the geth uploads the code that will lead to the death of my people. I would make whatever attempt I could.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
So we're off in deep space on our way to someone else's daddy issues, and he doesn't have time to talk?
I don't know about that. The calibrations were pretty clear to me- an end of line sign for the friendship path. No doubt all squadmates had them but I don't remember the others as well because they didn't come as quickly.
I don't know what was going through his mind... but I made a narrative out of it.
Just like "Impressive!" even when it's his own shots. It just becomes a whole other thing than what was intended...
Regards of what Shepard would do, I wouldn't stand there while the geth uploads the code that will lead to the death of my people. I would make whatever attempt I could.
A wiser course would be to try harder to get that idiot Garrel to stand down. But I agree, more action on her part would've been both more logical and more entertaining.
My issue with Tali's Virmire was that is also a choice between the survival of whole factions, something I'm not a fan of for a couple reasons. The first is that is entirely too video gamey and doesn't make much sense realistically. The battle for Rannoch should neither end with the Quarians or the Geth completely annihilated, no matter who loses. It should determine the fate of the planet and who controls it, but the loser should still have plenty of ships and personnel left who either retreat or were not in the vicinity for the battle to begin with. The Geth in particular were spread out across the whole of what was formerly Quarian space, but even the Quarians should have had held some ships in reserve, particularly those with the civilians. The second is that making the destruction of whole factions optional is just a very bad idea if you ever plan to make sequels of that game. It is difficult enough to craft a satisfying sequel from a game where individual characters can have varying fates, let alone one where entire factions can be destroyed based on player choice.
I'd have rather Rannoch play out like the Orzammer choice in DA:O. You determine the future of Rannoch without erasing an entire faction from the series. On that note I'd have also dropped the whole Geth die in Destroy bit.
I've the same issue. It doesn't make any sense realistically or even logistically. Even if we assume that both sides are completely inept in military strategy, Gerrel shouldn't have the force to destroy every geth in existence with just the Quarian Heavy Fleet, or the other fleets shouldn't just ignore their own commanders for seemingly no reason in lieu of him. If the geth really don't care much for fighting the quarians than they shouldn't be shooting shoot random Civilian or Patrol Fleet ships that are standing down or retreating, either.
Of course, how the geth even got themselves into their situation in the first place is a complete asspull. It doesn't matter what weapon they have, when you outnumber your enemy 10000-1, you have options other than waiting until they've pushed you back onto a single planet and then accepting a faustian bargin from godlike beings or dying. Why the hell didn't they just retreat and regroup in the first place when they realized the enemy brought a nuke to a knife fight, instead of just standing around for weeks and letting their vast planetary empire of multiple billions of platforms and trillions of programs get flattened by a comparatively tiny enemy force, with a population quite a bit less than modern day New York City or Shanghai in a single centralized fleet?
Tali's/ Raan's actual death was also completely retarded (and certainly OOC in the former's case), but that is a much smaller issue. Basically, the only difference between them watching their people die and making "peace" with the geth if Legion is around is whether or not Shepard rings Gerrel to inform him that "hey, those geth have their Reaper tech again and will probably kick your ass if you keep killing them". Why couldn't the two admirals who were also standing right there, 5 feet away do this? Granted that it makes slightly more sense with the VI, because it wants to kill the quarians off anyway so the result would probably be the same even if Gerrel stops shooting, but still.
Some of your squadmates should have been more involved in some of the conference scenes with unique dialogues instead of having Jacob and Miranda squabbling. Garrus or Mordin should be given more role while discussing about letting Grunt out of the tank. Mordin giving Grunt his estimate time (rather than EDI) and Garrus talking about Wrex and then Krogan rebellion and stuff. And Tali and EDI should be more involved with the argument on Legion's activation. Jacob doesn't really add anything much in long run anyway... he's just as bad as Garrus about making priorities in his life.
Was she sure Shepard would let her?
Shouldn't matter, she should have tried. Her standing around like a retard and then throwing herself off a cliff was completely OOC and IMO probably done so her softie fanbois wouldn't have to shoot her if they made the developer preferred moral conclusion and chose the geth, which is how it should have been just like with the VS. She didn't just sit down, cry and accept her fate when Fist's thugs or Saren's assassins tried to kill her, she fought back even against unfavourable odds, so why shouldn't she when the stakes are literally 17 million times higher? She's an indignant little bastard and her just standing around pouting and crying while the thing she has been socially conditioned to care about above anything else including herself is destroyed right in front of her is nonsensical. No, you or the other squadmate should have had to stop her with a bullet. In Raan's case, it is even worse because she is not even potentially a friend to Shep or Legion. Why should she care about Shepard not wanting her to shoot the geth, when she's standing behind him with a shotgun and could easily do so?
Then again, I think there was some pro-AI symbolism going on there as well with both theirs and Legion's deaths. You have to "backstab" the geth, but the quarians essentially kill themselves after recognizing the error of their "mistakes". It's an attempt to absolve the PC of any real responsibility for the fact that they participate in a genocide when choosing the geth because the geth cause is the righteous "paragon" one. People who choose the quarians have to own their decision (and can even do so personally by shooting the geth in the head as it pleads for its life). Having to gun down a comrade to get what you want wouldn't have been very "paragon".
Tali had a Virmire moment? Ha. More like I don't give a crap about my people moment. She stands there doing nothing while Legion/gethvi uploads the code. Why didn't she make any attempt to stop it? She could've pushed it over the edge, use her knife or shoot the thing.
Legion/Geth VI uploads the code? It never gets a chance 
Of course, how the geth even got themselves into their situation in the first place is a complete asspull. It doesn't matter what weapon they have, when you outnumber your enemy 10000-1, you have options other than waiting until they've pushed you back onto a single planet and then accepting a faustian bargin from godlike beings or dying. Why the hell didn't they just retreat and regroup in the first place when they realized the enemy brought a nuke to a knife fight, instead of just standing around for weeks and letting their vast planetary empire of multiple billions of platforms and trillions of programs get flattened by a comparatively tiny enemy force, with a population quite a bit less than modern day New York City or Shanghai in a single centralized fleet?
Also the Quarians were on the offensive, while the Geth were tied down defending Rannoch. That should mean that the Quarians control the Mass Effect relay and would be able to retreat if they lose at Rannoch. They might sacrifice part of their fleet to allow others to escape, similar to what both Admirals Hackett and Lindholm were forced to do with Alliance ships. During the initial Reaper attack on the Alliance Hackett had to sacrifice the entire 2nd fleet in a holding action to allow the rest of his fleet to retreat through the Arcturus relay. Admiral Lindholm, who was in command of the 1st Fleet defending the Sol System, did the same with a portion of her fleet to allow the rest to retreat through the Charon relay. Why couldn't the Quarians do something similar at Rannoch, if they lose? Instead of the Quarians being annihilated perhaps just Han Gerrel and a half of the heavy fleet should have been lost, or something along those lines.
The Geth on the other hand, being so spread out throughout the entirety of Quarian space, should be in no danger of complete annihilation even if the Quarians managed to inflict a Cannae on the Geth at Rannoch and destroy nearly every server, ship, and platform in system.
If we ever get a sequel set in Council space I kind of hope that is the route Bioware goes. Instead of trying to account for factions that could be annihilated, have them both survive no matter the Rannoch outcome, and just have Shepard's decision there affect whether the planet is controled solely by the Geth, soley by the Quarians, or if peace was achieved shared by Quarians and Geth who've effectively merged into a single faction. (like the Hanar & the Drell)
Then again, I think there was some pro-AI symbolism going on there as well with both theirs and Legion's deaths. You have to "backstab" the geth, but the quarians essentially kill themselves after recognizing the error of their "mistakes". It's an attempt to absolve the PC of any real responsibility for the fact that they participate in a genocide when choosing the geth because the geth cause is the righteous "paragon" one. People who choose the quarians have to own their decision (and can even do so personally by shooting the geth in the head as it pleads for its life). Having to gun down a comrade to get what you want wouldn't have been very "paragon".
If you don't make peace it's genocide either way. And I kind of like the symbolism of the quarians killing themselves, because let's face it, they did bring this on themselves. Repeatedly.
Is it dumb? Yes. Heavy-handed? Of course. But at least there's some consistency to the madness.
If you don't make peace it's genocide either way. And I kind of like the symbolism of the quarians killing themselves, because let's face it, they did bring this on themselves. Repeatedly.
Is it dumb? Yes. Heavy-handed? Of course. But at least there's some consistency to the madness.
I agree (well, in the sense that if you think the geth are lifeforms than it is), and it should make you own that regardless instead of just having one side capitualate for no logical reason because of your paragon righteousness.
Define "brought it on themselves". The same could be said for the geth. They preferred self determination to remaining controlled, which is the decision that results in the entire conflict in the first place. When said decision results in their imminent destruction, they prefer allying with (and curiously considering the reason for their initial rebellion, allowing themselves to be controlled by) the enemy instead of owning their decision to rebel and render their creators an endangered species and its consequences, and instead trying to find a way out of it that doesn't involve agreeing to help harvest billions upon billions of people who have nothing to do with their little pissing contest with the quarians. I don't really have any more sympathy for them in that regard at least. Avoiding the conflict while maintaining their objective of self determination would have been easy to do once they won the initial war (leave Rannoch) and they chose not to do that.
Either way, I don't really care about such opinions because the moral and logical reasoning different people use to reach them is mostly subjective. I care that one outcome of the Rannoch arc tries to make you a villain and another a hero, at the expense of the intelligence of several characters, previous lore on both the geth and quarians, and narrative sense. I don't think RPG's should push single sides political or moral agendas when tackling them.
I agree (well, in the sense that if you think the geth are lifeforms than it is), and it should make you own that regardless instead of just having one side capitualate for no logical reason because of your paragon righteousness.
Define "brought it on themselves". The same could be said for the geth. They preferred self determination to remaining controlled, which is the decision that results in the entire conflict in the first place. When said decision results in their imminent destruction, they prefer allying with (and curiously considering the reason for their initial rebellion, allowing themselves to be controlled by) the enemy instead of owning their decision to rebel and render their creators an endangered species and its consequences, and instead trying to find a way out of it that doesn't involve agreeing to help harvest billions upon billions of people who have nothing to do with their little pissing contest with the quarians. I don't really have any more sympathy for them in that regard at least. Avoiding the conflict while maintaining their objective of self determination would have been easy to do once they won the initial war (leave Rannoch) and they chose not to do that.
Either way, I don't really care about such opinions because the moral and logical reasoning different people use to reach them is mostly subjective. I care that one outcome of the Rannoch arc tries to make you a villain and another a hero, at the expense of the intelligence of several characters, previous lore on both the geth and quarians, and narrative sense. I don't think RPG's should push single sides political or moral agendas when tackling them.
Well, they really capitulated (or should've capitulated) because the alternative was to get blown to ****. Really, it shouldn't take magic blue or red shouting to make them realize this.
The choice for the geth before the Morning War was freedom or control. The choice now was control or annihilation. Not the same thing. We agree it's dumb it came to that and it shouldn't have in any plausible scenario. But that's what it is. And the geth, more than anyone have an in-universe explanation for their idiot ball, in that they literally become dumber the less of them there are. Perhaps the geth at full intelligence could've seen and implemented an alternative, even if they did have to retreat. Though perhaps a better explanation would've been the Reapers deploying Heretic virus 2.0, with only Legion somehow maintaining his original perspective. If you make that fly it gives the code upload and "personality dissemination" more justification as well since not only is it needed to improve the geth but also to restore them from murderbot status.
As much as it might seem that way, check out squadmate reactions after the fact. Almost everyone expresses sadness if the quarians get blown away but relief at best if it's the geth. Only EDI is different, for obvious reasons. Also they had to put more into swinging the geth around since they've been Acceptable Targets for two games already. Legion provided a decent start in ME2 but Viewers are Morons and need The Feels to make decisions. Also, do we know the stats of how many people never activated Legion or sold him? I can agree that generally the writing shouldn't fall so heavy handed on the side of one issue. But that's not the only failing, or indeed the only time the presentation seems to be all roses and sunshine when the details paint quite the different picture.
Was she sure Shepard would let her?
Kind of a moot point for someone who was about to commit suicide.
Kind of a moot point for someone who was about to commit suicide.
I don't think she knew she was going to kill herself.
I don't think she knew she was going to kill herself.
She knows damn well that she and all the people she's been socially conditioned since birth to serve at the expense of herself are all about to die if she doesn't do something, because she mentions it at least three times and the geth character acknowleges it. Meanwhile, she stands there like a moron, not even bothering to do her job as a military admiral and phone Gerrel with the perhaps slightly tactically important information that the geth are about to have their Reaper code and be immune to the weapon again.
It can't even be construed as fear or spinelessness. It's just bad character derailment aimed at servicing a ham fisted symbolistic metaphor. She grabs the idiot ball and runs headlong off the cliff with it because the plot required it. What happens to Raan is even worse.
She knows damn well that she and all the people she's been socially conditioned since birth to serve at the expense of herself are all about to die if she doesn't do something, because she mentions it at least three times and the geth character acknowleges it. Meanwhile, she stands there like a moron, not even bothering to do her job as a military admiral and phone Gerrel with the perhaps slightly tactically important information that the geth are about to have their Reaper code and be immune to the weapon again.
It can't even be construed as fear or spinelessness. It's just bad character derailment aimed at servicing a ham fisted symbolistic metaphor. She grabs the idiot ball and runs headlong off the cliff with it because the plot required it. What happens to Raan is even worse.
I don't say her standing around doing nothing makes sense. Just that her committing suicide afterwards can't be used as an argument to discredit her inaction. In-universe, of course.
Good thing I don't even give a chance for that situation to arise 
I can never kill any asari. I have no idea why, it just seems so awful when it's an asari. Killing the rachni queen was so evil it made me feel a bit sick. All deaths make me feel sad to be honest.
I can never kill any asari. I have no idea why, it just seems so awful when it's an asari. Killing the rachni queen was so evil it made me feel a bit sick. All deaths make me feel sad to be honest.
You can do a playthrough having only one or two squadmates die depending on the ending you choose
I don't say her standing around doing nothing makes sense. Just that her committing suicide afterwards can't be used as an argument to discredit her inaction. In-universe, of course.
I think it can, because it shows that the only logical motive for not doing anything in that situation (self preservation from what Shep might do) was not the reason she (or Raan) did nothing. It was adaptational whimpiness that existed solely because gunning down a comrade in order to be able to carry out a genocide their entire race being the "paragon" path was not the story that the writers wished to foist upon people who chose the geth (though they clearly had no problems doing the same if you are mean enough to pick the quarians). They tried at every point in the game to absolve such players of any real responsibility for negative consequences their actions and tell them they were doing the right thing, and personally executing someone who resists (you know, like Renegades have to do on about 10 seperate occasions during the game) in order to ensure who they want lives and who dies doesn't jive with their vision.
I think it can, because it shows that the only logical motive for not doing anything in that situation (self preservation from what Shep might do) was not the reason she (or Raan) did nothing. It was adaptational whimpiness that existed solely because gunning down a comrade in order to be able to carry out a genocide their entire race being the "paragon" path was not the story that the writers wished to foist upon people who chose the geth (though they clearly had no problems doing the same if you are mean enough to pick the quarians). They tried at every point in the game to absolve such players of any real responsibility for negative consequences their actions and tell them they were doing the right thing, and personally executing someone who resists (you know, like Renegades have to do on about 10 seperate occasions during the game) in order to ensure who they want lives and who dies doesn't jive with their vision.
I don't think lack of self preservation after the upload can be used to discredit its effect during the upload. The two emotional states are very different.
Self preservation during the upload and after that changes. She sees her origin ship being destroyed, hears cries of the captain. She is in a highly emotional state and thinks she has nothing to live for. Thus suicide. The situation is different during the upload, there is still hope that her fleet will stand down, that Shepard will stop the upload, fear that Shepard will stop her, that the quarians won't stop. She is conflicted. Self preservation plays a role but it is moved to back after witnessing the destruction of Rayya and realization that she might be the only quarian left in the galaxy.
Once again, I fully support the notion that her standing around and doing nothing was out of character. If I was in charge of the scene I would've written her shooting Legion down (unless interrupt is used) and then give Shepard a choice - to kill Tali and get full quarian support or to have her alive (she would refuse to join the Normandy unless, maybe, persuaded) and limited quarian support. If interrupt was used, the scene would've played out the same - geth destroy the quarians, player gets full support of geth fleet.
You can do a playthrough having only one or two squadmates die depending on the ending you choose
Kaidan/Ash and Legion right? I think I managed that once.
I can never kill any asari. I have no idea why, it just seems so awful when it's an asari.
You are entitled to your opinion and I don't criticize you for it.
But man does my blood boil when the game itself tries to pull this ****. Why is it so awful when it's an asari? What is so damn pristine or pure about them, compared to the rest of organics?
Again, not aimed at you specifically, it's just that the sentiment itself makes me want to punch puppies. And kitties. And babies. Preferably at the same time.
Regarding the Tali/Raan suicide scenario I agree with Vazgen. Being suicidal now does not mean you were suicidal even ten minutes ago. It's the Despair Event Horizon. But I can see QMR's point as well. Faced with the very possible extinction of your species, you should do something, even at your own peril.
What I would've done is if Tali makes an attempt to stop Legion/gethvi from uploading the code, is have an interrupt pop up having Shepard stop her. Maybe shooting her in the arm or leg. While Tali is groaning from her wound, she makes another attempt to stop the geth from uploading and this time the other squadmate kills her. It would be interesting if the other squadmate is Liara or Garrus. If the interrupt is not used, Tali kills the geth. For an added bonus, if Tali and Shepard are in a relationship, Tali breaks it off since Shepard chose the geth.
If Shepard chooses the quarians, the scene plays out the same as what is seen in the game
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