287 réponses à ce sujet

[SgtSteel91]

If you side with the mages plight and then align with the Qunari you fail at logic.

If you scold Leliana about how she handles spies, and/or reassure her pulling agents back at Haven was a tactical retreat, and then side with the Qunari you fail at logic.

If you fight for the sovereignty of nations like Orlais, Ferelden, Nevarra etc etc and team with the Qunari you fail at logic.

The Qunari end game is world domination, not coexistence. That is not a political idea that could change with new leadership, it is the heart of the cultures' philosophy. Any friendship they offer is only to benefit them, anything you gain is done so with a scorpion on your back.

 

Unfortunately this is one of my Inquisitors. They did all that (Mage Freedome, talking to Leliana about that, etc) and still decided to sacrifice the Chargers mainly because they believed that this alliance could open the doors to more diplomatic ventures and a real truce between the Qunari and Thedas. And because they agreed to the mission and they are the kind of person who keeps their word; If they weren't serious about forming an alliance with the Qunari then they wouldn't go on the mission. 

[Snowy-Ninja]

Personally I prefer saving the Chargers.

 

The alliance with the Qun does not add much to the game. All that really changes is the war table missions you get and how your companions talk to Bull. The only thing that would make me ally with the Qun is to save Denerim, but we don't know if war table missions will have any effect future games or DLC's so it doesn't really matter who you choose its more about morality I guess.

[The Baconer]

Well they intend to punch southern Thedas in the gut before they punch Tevinter in the gut, so...

 

The quest can be taken at a point where Corypheus's forces have been thoroughly ass-whooped at every turn. The dialogue between Gatt and Bull implies that the Ben-Hassrath is primarily worried with Red Lyrium mutants being unleashed upon Seheron and possibly Par Vollen, with them "coming back down" to finish Southern Thedas.

 

Within this context, one might think "Well, the situation down here is just about wrapped up, but it doesn't really bother me if you get a taste."

[andy6915]

The quest can be taken at a point where Corypheus's forces have been thoroughly ass-whooped at every turn. The dialogue between Gatt and Bull implies that the Ben-Hassrath is primarily worried with Red Lyrium mutants being unleashed upon Seheron and possibly Par Vollen, with them "coming back down" to finish Southern Thedas.

Within this context, one might think "Well, the situation down here is just about wrapped up, but it doesn't really bother me if you get a taste."

Well... Point taken. But I still don't see how doing the alliance after siding with mages makes you an idiot or hypocrite.

[The Baconer]

Well... Point taken. But I still don't see how doing the alliance after siding with mages makes you an idiot or hypocrite.

 

It doesn't, not necessarily. But I think that, regardless of what faction you pursue, one should remember you would be working with a force that doesn't hide any desire to forcefully conquer the land you're trying to save, and who intends to erase the religion in which the people see you as an icon.

 

And if you're a mage, well, their end goal for you would be brain bleach, or death, if you're lucky.

[zambingo]

And how in game would the Inquisitor know it? Qunari support would give you more chance against Corypheus than the Chargers ever would.

You're told from the start only you have the power to close the breach.

[Boost32]

You're told from the start only you have the power to close the breach.

The Breach was already closed at the time, I'm speaking how your character can know he/she didnt need the help of the Qunari to defeat Corypheus?

[Rainbow Wyvern]

I always sacrifice the Chargers. They're boring and expendable. *shrug* 

Besides, I'd rather not possibly let half of Denerim burn for a couple of dull side characters, and the Ben-Hassrath also help with rooting out the Venatori. 

[zambingo]

The Breach was already closed at the time, I'm speaking how your character can know he/she didnt need the help of the Qunari to defeat Corypheus?

Okay. That is fair distinction, feels a little close to splitting hairs but I can understand the point.

There is no way to know what is needed to defeat Corypants specifically.

Maybe you need the blood of the Arishok. Maybe you need to translate ancient Qunari texts. Maybe you need 8 foot tall cannon fodder. Maybe you need Tevinter. Maybe you need Templars. Maybe you need Krem and the Chargers because special reasons.

Since we're now in Second Guess Yourself Land, Can't Make Decisions-ville then to make any sort of plan forward your Inquisitor has to just be themselves and do their best. Which brings us all back to the "if you side with" logic stream.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

There is no way to know what is needed to defeat Corypants specifically.

Maybe you need the blood of the Arishok. Maybe you need to translate ancient Qunari texts. Maybe you need 8 foot tall cannon fodder. Maybe you need Tevinter. Maybe you need Templars. Maybe you need Krem and the Chargers because special reasons.

 

This is blatant pedantry and you know it too.

[ShadowLordXII]

It may not be connected, but it still takes place in the timeline of Thedas. And I'm not saying metagaming has anything to do with the Inquisitor's choice to protect the dreadnaught, just that it does for players.

 

I see what you're getting at, but I don't think the fact that it's metagaming matters. Whether we get hints from advisors about what's going to happen or whether we play a certain path and see what the result is and then reload, it's all the same. Both methods tell us what is going to happen in the near future. It's like Daniel in Cassandra's quest. We see that his fate is to be infected and eventually die or get turned. But what if you don't do Cassandra's quest? Well, it's logical to conclude that his fate is the same, since his fate is not tied to whether you accepted Cassandra's personal quest or not. Same case with the fire ship. It always gets launched no matter what you do. The only question is if the Ben-Hassrath can stop it without Inquisition help.

 

Again, not saying this is any kind of rationale for the Inquisitor, because metagaming never is, just that it's a good reason for the players to choose that path. It doesn't matter that it's a different playthrough. That path proves that the fire ship and all involved agents exist. Choosing to save the Chargers doesn't make the fire ship suddenly not exist. Choosing to save the dreadnaught doesn't make the fire ship appear from out of thin air. From here it is simple logical deduction that without Inquisition assistance, Denerim has at least a 75% chance of burning because of the fire ship.

 

I never wrote Denerim would definately burn if you save the Chargers, but rather that saving the dreadnaught leads to you getting involved in the assassination attempt in Denerim, which has a good chance of leading to the Inquisition and Qunari working together to successfully save Denerim from getting burned.

 

But this I will write. The Inquisition definately has Venatori spies in Skyhold. If you don't ally with the Qunari, then the spies remain, as the Ben-Hassrath were the only ones to spot them and were the only ones to make you aware of them.

 

These spies can't be that much of a concern if the Venatori and Corypheus never used the supposedly gathered information to it's fullest through the following:

 

A) Set up an ambush to capture/kill the Inquisitor

 

Orchestrate an assault on Skyhold when a good chunk of the Inquisitions forces are too far away to help

 

C) Kidnap the Inquisitor's love interest or one of the advisers to set-up a lose-lose hostage situation.

 

Or Leliana once again proved herself as the best spymaster in Thedas by dealing with them and whatever plans that they had.

[zambingo]

This is blatant pedantry and you know it too.

What's good for the goose...

If someone argues the Quizzy can't possibly know what is needed to defeat Coryfists and so that is a point for the Qunari Alliance then that is a point for EVERY asset decision. You can't have it one way.

[andy6915]

It doesn't, not necessarily. But I think that, regardless of what faction you pursue, one should remember you would be working with a force that doesn't hide any desire to forcefully conquer the land you're trying to save, and who intends to erase the religion in which the people see you as an icon.

 

And if you're a mage, well, their end goal for you would be brain bleach, or death, if you're lucky.

 

And my mage would be well aware of all those things. You act like the alliance would mean I actually trust them.

[Boost32]

What's good for the goose...
If someone argues the Quizzy can't possibly know what is needed to defeat Coryfists and so that is a point for the Qunari Alliance then that is a point for EVERY asset decision. You can't have it one way.

The difference is that the things you said were rudiculous. I don't think you didn't understand what I meant, if you did I shall explain again:
The Inquisitor cant know he/she don't need the Qunari spies and war ships, the best he/she can do is build a strong Inquisition and hope its enough to defeat Corypheus. In that regards, a alliance with the Qunari gives you a stronger ally than the Chargers will ever be.

These spies can't be that much of a concern if the Venatori and Corypheus never used the supposedly gathered information to it's fullest through the following:
 
A) Set up an ambush to capture/kill the Inquisitor
 
Orchestrate an assault on Skyhold when a good chunk of the Inquisitions forces are too far away to help
 
C) Kidnap the Inquisitor's love interest or one of the advisers to set-up a lose-lose hostage situation.
 
Or Leliana once again proved herself as the best spymaster in Thedas by dealing with them and whatever plans that they had.

Leliana is the worst spymaster ever.

This decision have a huge flaw, it never show what happens if you went with the Chargers. Denerim is never burned and the Venatories spies never act, its almost like the game doesn't want you to feel bad and face the consequences of your actions.

[KaiserShep]

This decision have a huge flaw, it never show what happens if you went with the Chargers. Denerim is never burned and the Venatories spies never act, its almost like the game doesn't want you to feel bad and face the consequences of your actions.

 

The whole setup is kind of problematic, because at the end of the day, the Qunari have just as much incentive, perhaps more so, to crush anything the Venatori do anywhere in Thedas. But I guess this also goes to Leliana's lackluster spymastering when the plot (or absence of plot) demands it. It's especially damning when you consider that Denerim was her old stomping ground, putting aside that it's Ferelden's capital. Years of developing contacts and rubbing elbows with whomever, not to mention possibly being good friends with Ferelden's royalty should've bore fruit, but somehow she's totally blind to what goes on there. Maybe Varric really could have done her job after all.

[NaclynE]

Frankly I was so/so.

 

If you side with the qunari you really don't get to much out of it other than a new icon picture for Iron Bull and him sounding like a puppet. If you saved the charges Iron Bull is a-lot more up beat and cheerful and you still can do charges mission here and there.

 

Story wise all i can say is if you kept the qunari ship alive the qunari now have a base camp to invade Orlias. If it sunk then well the qunari would have to dock elsewhere and hate Ferelden and Orlias still.

[zambingo]

The difference is that the things you said were rudiculous. I don't think you didn't understand what I meant, if you did I shall explain again:
The Inquisitor cant know he/she don't need the Qunari spies and war ships, the best he/she can do is build a strong Inquisition and hope its enough to defeat Corypheus. In that regards, a alliance with the Qunari gives you a stronger ally than the Chargers will ever be.

Yes. Ridiculous. Because your stance is that. However you can't know those possibilities are ridiculous. You can't demand The Unknown is in favor for Alliance and then demand You Know the Chargers are Unimportant. You destroy your own premise when you insist this.

[Cobra's_back]

It doesn't, not necessarily. But I think that, regardless of what faction you pursue, one should remember you would be working with a force that doesn't hide any desire to forcefully conquer the land you're trying to save, and who intends to erase the religion in which the people see you as an icon.

 

And if you're a mage, well, their end goal for you would be brain bleach, or death, if you're lucky.

 

True.

 

I look at it as a temporary alliance with Bull being a reasonable contact/connection. There are plenty of temporary alliances to get information. Bull keeps his position and is not called a deserter. 

 

Never hurts to have an inside man. I don't save the mages. As far as I'm concern they are both bad news. I like to disband the Templars and get them to kick the drug habit.

 

 

The fact that he asked for advice does look like he wants to leave the Qun. So I would say as a personal friend offer him a way out of the Qun.

 

As a leader, ask him to stay in the Qun as your communications adviser. 

[c0bra951]

Doing the Qunari alliance war table missions also gets you a very nice Tier 3 staff schematic: Masterwork Archon Staff Schematic
 

 

So I sacrificed the Chargers in my current PT, consoled Bull, who took it almost too well, and went through the real-time tedium of chasing through over a half-dozen linked war-table missions, all to get this thing.  And it's underwhelming.  Sure it looks good, and with some good choices of grip and blade can be made almost good enough.  But damn-- constitution/strength has absolutely no place on a mage staff.  That is simply a ridiculous design decision on this thing.  I lose half of my critical chance when it replaces my trusty, but boring-looking T3 First Enchanter staff.  A T3 Witch staff blade brought some of that back with +6 crit chance, but that still doesn't make up for the sting of losing the 11 cunning and 11% crit chance--for what, constitution?  (Strength is totally worthless here.)

 

Anyway, rant over.  I'm using it, and it does have other good qualities.  It just baffles me why they chose what they did for it, particularly when it's so much busywork to get.

 

Edit:  I found a T3 grip at the Sulevin merchant which allowed me to improve attack a bit and add 6% more to crit chance.  (Nothing is sacrificed.)  That brings my cc attribute up to 27%.  That works for me.  It was 31% with the First Enchanter staff.  Close enough, and plenty good enough for energy barrage/clean burn.  But constitution or strength on a staff?!  Blech!  I still can't get over that.

Modifié par c0bra951, 03 juillet 2015 - 02:17 .

[XEternalXDreamsX]

The Breach was already closed at the time, I'm speaking how your character can know he/she didnt need the help of the Qunari to defeat Corypheus?

I thought it was still there but it stopped growing?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I thought it was still there but it stopped growing?

 

People in Thedas can't seem to decide if it's actually closed or not after In Your Heart Shall Burn.

[Dabrikishaw]

So I sacrificed the Chargers in my current PT, consoled Bull, who took it almost too well, and went through the real-time tedium of chasing through over a half-dozen linked war-table missions, all to get this thing.  And it's underwhelming.  Sure it looks good, and with some good choices of grip and blade can be made almost good enough.  But damn-- constitution/strength has absolutely no place on a mage staff.  That is simply a ridiculous design decision on this thing.  I lose half of my critical chance when it replaces my trusty, but boring-looking T3 First Enchanter staff.  A T3 Witch staff blade brought some of that back with +6 crit chance, but that still doesn't make up for the sting of losing the 11 cunning and 11% crit chance--for what, constitution?  (Strength is totally worthless here.)

 

Anyway, rant over.  I'm using it, and it does have other good qualities.  It just baffles me why they chose what they did for it, particularly when it's so much busywork to get.

Exactly the reason I don't save the Dreadnaught.

[Boost32]

I thought it was still there but it stopped growing?

You closed it for good after In Your Heart Shall Burn.

[Balek-Vriege]

You closed it for good after In Your Heart Shall Burn.

 

This

 

-  You stabilize the Breach in the prelude preventing it from growing.

-  Then you close it completely in the beginning of "In Your Heart Shall Burn"

-  Corypheus reopens the Breach in "Doom upon all this World" (not to the Golden City of course, because he needs the Anchor/Ritual or Eluvian for that), growing at a world ending exponential rate before you stop him.

 

On the topic at hand you have to understand the Qunari and the Qun, which we have had three games to do so, to understand whether the alliance is worth it or not.

 

The answer is no, the alliance is not worth it because it's not even an alliance.  The Inquisition is being used temporarily for short term gain, gauged/tested for effectiveness and/or indirectly compromised, nothing more.  There is only the Qun, and everything else that must fall under the Qun.  The Inquisition by its very nature cannot co-exist with it the same way the Chantry cannot or any other philosophy, religious or political structure formed outside of it can.  The Qun only allows for the Qun and the Qunari are very strict in its following.

 

If the future DLC information is true then it will confirm what Sten, the Arishok, Tallis, Iron Bull and other Qunari have been telling you all along:  You can't trust them in the long run or even when you enter an alliance with them, because their eventual goal is to covert and not the easy way.  Since most of Thedas seems to be happy with the Chant of Light, that means there's a 100% chance of military invasion at the right time.

 

The only thing you may gain by allying with them is respect akin to the respect Hawke could gain from the Arishok in DA2.  However, respect and alliances do not get in the way of Qunari doing what they feel is best for the Qun as DA2 showed.  If the Inquisitor and the Inquisition are obstacles to dominance over Thedas they will be targeted and taken out.  The only way you avoid the wrath of Qunari is willingly converting to the Qun, or commanding enough respect, intellect and cunning to convince them they don't need to fight you to get what they want.  Or kill them back.

 

The Chargers to me are more trustworthy and when you choose them Iron Bull is more loyal to the Inquisition.  A 100% loyal special forces-like unit is pretty handy.  Hopefully Iron Bull decides to stick around forever and the Chargers become a division of the Inquisition.

 

An interesting thing in Dragon Age Keep too.  If you choose to save the Chargers, the keep tapestry is designed as the "friendship" one with Iron Bull.  Choosing to save the Dreadnaught is not, with "Iron Bull loyal to the Qun."

[Labrev]

Yes. Ridiculous. Because your stance is that. However you can't know those possibilities are ridiculous. You can't demand The Unknown is in favor for Alliance and then demand You Know the Chargers are Unimportant. You destroy your own premise when you insist this.

 

Is this guy a troll or something, or does he actually consider this an argument?