287 réponses à ce sujet

[XEternalXDreamsX]

This

- You stabilize the Breach in the prelude preventing it from growing.
- Then you close it completely in the beginning of "In Your Heart Shall Burn"
- Corypheus reopens the Breach in "Doom upon all this World" (not to the Golden City of course, because he needs the Anchor/Ritual or Eluvian for that), growing at a world ending exponential rate before you stop him.

On the topic at hand you have to understand the Qunari and the Qun, which we have had three games to do so, to understand whether the alliance is worth it or not.

The answer is no, the alliance is not worth it because it's not even an alliance. The Inquisition is being used temporarily for short term gain, gauged/tested for effectiveness and/or indirectly compromised, nothing more. There is only the Qun, and everything else that must fall under the Qun. The Inquisition by its very nature cannot co-exist with it the same way the Chantry cannot or any other philosophy, religious or political structure formed outside of it can. The Qun only allows for the Qun and the Qunari are very strict in its following.

If the future DLC information is true then it will confirm what Sten, the Arishok, Tallis, Iron Bull and other Qunari have been telling you all along: You can't trust them in the long run or even when you enter an alliance with them, because their eventual goal is to covert and not the easy way. Since most of Thedas seems to be happy with the Chant of Light, that means there's a 100% chance of military invasion at the right time.

The only thing you may gain by allying with them is respect akin to the respect Hawke could gain from the Arishok in DA2. However, respect and alliances do not get in the way of Qunari doing what they feel is best for the Qun as DA2 showed. If the Inquisitor and the Inquisition are obstacles to dominance over Thedas they will be targeted and taken out. The only way you avoid the wrath of Qunari is willingly converting to the Qun, or commanding enough respect, intellect and cunning to convince them they don't need to fight you to get what they want. Or kill them back.

The Chargers to me are more trustworthy and when you choose them Iron Bull is more loyal to the Inquisition. A 100% loyal special forces-like unit is pretty handy. Hopefully Iron Bull decides to stick around forever and the Chargers become a division of the Inquisition.

An interesting thing in Dragon Age Keep too. If you choose to save the Chargers, the keep tapestry is designed as the "friendship" one with Iron Bull. Choosing to save the Dreadnaught is not, with "Iron Bull loyal to the Qun."

I have always wanted to save the Chargers. I completely agree with the arguments that the short term alliance can help the Inquisition though. Aside from the war table missions, it's just far as your imagination brings you. I think Bioware intended on majority of us to be against the Qun. Due to the point that they want to conquer civilization. I find their alien concept interesting that I wanted to be Pro-Qun to experience it. Those decisions were lack luster. Giving Isabella to Arishok was null and void. This alliance may do nothing for us besides maybe Iron Bull siding with the Qun if it's in the DLC. It'll give the decision more weight.

[metalfenix]

I just had to go this mission today. I'm a staunch pro-mage player, I know what they do with mages, I hate the qun code, my PC is a mage who liberated all the mages he could, and I hate to see bull depressed, so the obvious statement would be letting the qunaris burn...but somehow, I got to choose to save the dreadnought. I needed to go with a "flaw" (if we can call that) on my mary-sueish mage playthrough.

 

At least I hope to see more hot bare chested qunaris around lol. BTW, I heard the advisors at the war table talking about this "alliance", they will watch it carefully too, I'm glad to have a paranoid spy-master

 

Certainly, if you plan to romance the bull, saving the chargers would be better, so he can commit to you. Saving the dreadnought only commits him to the qun entirely so a romance is a no-no thing. In a non-romanced Iron bull playthrough (like my current one) the most practical thing would be saving the dreadnought. More military forces, a spy network, and some war table ops.

[Labrev]

If I had Bull, then I might very well ally with the Qun. 

 

 

The harder choice for me is whether to have Iron Bull around in the first place. To me, that's already allying with the Qunari, seeing what little you know about him at first. It's the strangest recruitment scene for me.

 

Choose the action-option "Don't make us regret this" to recruit him.

 

The Inquisitor accepts his offer but makes it clear that they will be keeping an eye on him and whatever messages he sends out. He has no problem with that, and it allows you to recruit him without coming off as a too-trusting idiot.

[MEBengal2008]

DA Dragon Keep has two selection for Iron Bull when setting this up for the next game. Yeah I said next game. It looks as if the dragon keeper was designed to house our decisions for more than just DAI. With that said, I honestly believe the decision will Iron Bull may impact future game decisions. Who knows at this point in time.

 

I selected saving the ship; plain and simple. An alliance is needed to protect others and it does. Who knows how all of these little decisions will impact the next game.

[zambingo]

Is this guy a troll or something, or does he actually consider this an argument?

My position is logically sound.

The Other Poster laid the premise that The Unknown is the reason we must side with The Qunari and that is why The Chargers are unimportant.

No one can say they know the correct choice when they argue the outcome is unknowable.

[ComedicSociopathy]

The new DLC pretty much tells us that the alliance with the Qunari doesn't count for much since their going to invade anyway. 

 

Not that surprising since the Qun sees anyone who isn't one of them as things, not actual people. 

[zambingo]

Or they could be bold and make one version of Bull... Qunari Spy. Then they just need a line or two of dialogue to explain this position. In this way He and the Qunari play us the whole time. This would not even invalidate this companion mission. This mission becomes the cover Bull and the Qunari use to keep him close to you and you essentially tell them what you are willing to believe; Bull is your trusted Qunari Contact or Bull is your trusted Tal-Vashoth Companion. Both are covers that scream win for a Spy.

[Cobra's_back]

The new DLC pretty much tells us that the alliance with the Qunari doesn't count for much since their going to invade anyway. 

 

Not that surprising since the Qun sees anyone who isn't one of them as things, not actual people. 

 

Most alliances are not forever. Bioware is about choices. There is no one answer. If you ally with them, you save Denerim, find the Venatori Agent, and close down the Venatori spy network in Thedas.  

 

There are several war table missions I found entertaining, and the group of missions that came from the alliance was part of my favorites. 

[andy6915]

Or they could be bold and make one version of Bull... Qunari Spy. Then they just need a line or two of dialogue to explain this position. In this way He and the Qunari play us the whole time. This would not even invalidate this companion mission. This mission becomes the cover Bull and the Qunari use to keep him close to you and you essentially tell them what you are willing to believe; Bull is your trusted Qunari Contact or Bull is your trusted Tal-Vashoth Companion. Both are covers that scream win for a Spy.

So the assassins sent to kill bull if he goes tal-vashoth were just sacrificial lambs? The qun doesn't do that with their people, and they in fact hate how non-qun people think that only some people are important instead of all people.

[Balek-Vriege]

I thought that whole scene didn't really make sense in regards to the Qun.  Secret overarching plot or no, the Qunari would have sent their best to take out Bull if they were going to send assassins.  He's no longer of any use as Tal-Vashoth but their assassins were.  Sending unskilled assassins to die by his hand was a waste of people.

 

If he was of any use and he's still a spy or they want him to come back to the Qun, they would have saved their assassins and not sent them at all.

 

I guess it depends who sent them and who gave the order.  It may have been that elven agent in the mission that looks up to Iron Bull, basically giving him a pass for saving him, while giving him a clear message that he's no longer considered Qunari.  He could then argue that they shouldn't send anymore assassins because it is a waste.

[zambingo]

So the assassins sent to kill bull if he goes tal-vashoth were just sacrificial lambs? The qun doesn't do that with their people, and they in fact hate how non-qun people think that only some people are important instead of all people.

The Qun demanded their sacrifice? It would be no different than a loyal, but loose Saarebas killing itself because it is what is demanded.

As to the second part, all people are so important to the Qun that they take their own who question and mind**** them into submission.

Yeah. They value life. ;-)

[Balek-Vriege]

The Qun demanded their sacrifice? It would be no different than a loyal, but loose Saarebas killing itself because it is what is demanded.

As to the second part, all people are so important to the Qun that they take their own who question and mind**** them into submission.

Yeah. They value life. ;-)

 

Not so much life, but purpose and all Qunari as equal assets I guess.

 

Which is why I think if there were orders from up on high to send assassins loyal to the Qun, they would have sent skilled enough ones to finish the job or not at all.  If they didn't intend to kill Iron Bull and just send him a message, they would have just sent an envoy to telling him he's no longer Qunari.

 

I personally think that the Qunari would have sent their best and keep sending them until he's dead because he knows too much as an accomplished spy.  He's more dangerous than a loose Saarebas.

 

Then again maybe your right.  These assassins maybe were guys that didn't truly follow the Qun, or made mistakes, and were disposable enough as pawns in a greater plot.

[The Baconer]

Then again maybe your right.  These assassins maybe were guys that didn't truly follow the Qun, or made mistakes, and were disposable enough as pawns in a greater plot.

 

Like getting you to trust Iron Bull even though he's still a Ben-Hassrath plant oh noooooo.

[SgtSteel91]

I think he's genuinely distanced and enemies of Qunari, if you save the Chargers. I don't really see a big plot brewing there.

 

 

Like I said above though, I just have a problem having on my team as a mage. There's no good dialogue there to give me an out... something to work with. I think the only people who don't mind are just completionists and going through the motions of gathering characters. Or mages who think it'd be cool to romance him...in which case, they can rationalize their Inquisitor as horny (no pun intended). Otherwise, it stinks.

 

But not recruiting him I think will be the only way you might be enemies with him.... at least indirectly. So I don't mean to sound off-topic. This is my main point.

 

I think I'm sort of the same way with Vivienne with my main playthrough.

[Labrev]

My position is logically sound.

The Other Poster laid the premise that The Unknown is the reason we must side with The Qunari and that is why The Chargers are unimportant.

No one can say they know the correct choice when they argue the outcome is unknowable.

 

Your position is laughably bad.

 

The Inquisition is a military organization, waging a war. There are certain things that they can reasonably believe will help them toward achieving those ends, such as: infantry, spies, intel (the things that the Qunari will give you). It may not be known exactly how much of those you need, but it is known that those are resources you need, and the Qunari offer it in greater capacity than Bull's rent-a-swords.

 

Claiming that the Inquisitor should put no more value on greater military resources than random trinkets is just, ... there are no words to express how ridiculous that is. You should have just claimed to be trolling while you had a chance.

[zambingo]

You've misunderstood this particular exchange between The Other Poster and I.

Weighing assets and probabilities is totally correct, you're totally doing it right. No matter what choice you make the Quizzy is in the position to have made a tactically sound decision. I was not arguing against the Qunari or for the Chargers, I was pointing out that particular method used to reach a decision was illogical.

No one can say they know the correct choice when they argue the outcome is unknowable.

This has been clearly repeated and if you cannot grasp the broken method there perhaps I am not deserving of the Troll Tag.

[evelynwarden]

Bioware often poses several options, two of which can be classified as "feel good" and "politically correct." Which is which is obvious in this situation, and has been pointed out in the epilogue scenes, neither is consistently the correct decision, if there even is a right and wrong system.

 

I've played all the way to the end of inquisition a few times now, and the first time I couldn't do anything but feel obligated to save the Chargers, so I did. The second time, I picked the Dreadnought just to see what would happen. As torn as I am about the situation... I felt that saving the Dreadnought is the way to go, though with DLC rumors, it may be that your decision ultimately has little weight with the Qunari.

You get war table missions and an intriguing story line within the war table operations that come with the alliance. But let's put the actual hard consequences aside. Those are easy to look up. As far as how Bull behaves, the conversations that come following either decision, no matter what you choose he will validate it, but in the decision to save the alliance, there is a greater sense of gratitude and closure, versus a greater sense of sentimentality. Regardless, he does not hold you responsible for the decision. 

I would choose to save the alliance again. Good writing inspires difficult as well as uplifting emotion. The loss is worth it in my experience.

[SgtSteel91]

Because of the Circle? Qunari are worse "Templar friendly" types. That's what so silly about this.

 

But fair point. Both of these are niche characters. But at least she stays alive more on nightmare. I don't exactly feel a big loss losing him, even on a gameplay level.

 

It's less about the Circle, I can just agree to disagree and all that, and more her using the Inquisition to get more power for herself.