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is it worth making an alliance with the Qunari?


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#51
KaiserShep

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Here's how i see it:

 

The enemy of my enemy is just that and nothing more. The ultimate objective of the qunari is to conquer the entirety of thedas and brainwash or magically lobotomize the population. That will never change and you cannot negotiate it away. Just because they are focused on one of the inquisitions enemies right now does not mean that they themselves are not an enemy.

 

And this is particularly close to home if your Inquisitor is a Marcher, considering what the Arishok and his men did to Kirkwall. 



#52
Dai Grepher

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I didn't like the way the Qunari came with the offer.  They stated that you could only bring a small squad, not the army.  It really felt like a secret test of character for Bull.  Let's be honest, if Leliana had been able to send a handful of spies, that would have gone VERY differently.  OR, what about the Blades?  If you recruited them, they were RIGHT THERE!!!  If not, you've got THREE camps in the area.  The Venatori HAD to know they were there, so if they were found out, it wouldn't be a big surprise.  Gatt seemed like he was TRYING to get the Chargers killed.  Did he seem regretful?  Yes...but he DIDN'T seem surprised.  He KNEW where Bull would send the Chargers.  He knew where the Venatori were camped, and their numbers.  It's not a stretch to think he didn't know that Bull would be forced to choose between loyalties.  He hoped Bull would choose the Qun.  If he did, then his team would be dead, which pushes him deeper into the fold.  If he doesn't, he's out, and even cut loose, he's still an asset.  The death of the Chargers serves the Qunari, and losing Bull doesn't hurt them that much.  

 

I don't think an alliance helps that much.  The fireship that burns down Denerim?  ONLY happens (it seems) if you work with the Qunari.  Why?  Perhaps its your association with the Qun that factors into them trying to assault the capitol of Ferelden?  Remember, you are dealing with Qunari spies.  How much information do you really trust about them.  ANY time to deal with an intelligence organization, you have to wonder about sources.  Remember Mass Effect?  Cerberus put its best face forward for Shep, while keeping their really NASTY projects hidden.  The Qun is going to do what it takes to make you comfortable, but what you don't know won't hurt THEM...

 

I saved the Chargers.  Known quantity versus unknown.  Also, morale.  Bet your Orlesian and Ferelden allies would be happy to know you saved a well known mercenary band rather than secure an alliance with the Qun.  Especially considering how they treat 'difficult' converts...and King Alistair knows how they do that, as does Isabela, and Varric...lots of people actually...

 

And who said Bull had to bring the Chargers with him? Why not other companions of the Inquisition? It might seem like a test of character, but the Qunari could not have planned for Bull to bring the Chargers and split the groups up as he did. And even if they could, would they really risk a few Qunari and a dreadnaught on one possible Tal-Vashoth, especially when much simpler and less risky tests exist?

 

Logically, the Venatori have been planning the fire ship for a while and will use it regardless. They already attempted to assassinate at least one of the Ferelden monarchs. So they will keep trying no matter what. It seems the only thing that can even get the Inquisition involved in the first place is the Qunari alliance. Without that, the fire ship should succeed. Even if the Qunari try to stop the ship themselves without the Inquisition, they will not be successful. This is proven by the fact that the Inquisition can also fail if the right choices are not made at the Chore Table.

 

If you save the Chargers, then the unknown quantity remains an unknown quantity, and is in a position to harm you. Bringing them in close makes you aware of their capabilities and prepares you for them. Also, there are Venatori spies in Skyhold, which again, only the Qunari can pinpoint and trace back to the source.

 

Well your allies DON'T know that you saved a few mercs rather than got a foothold in with the Qunari. But Ferelden sure knows if you sided with the Qunari and together saved Denerim from being blown half to hell. Pretty sure they're happy about that. And as for what people know about the Qunari, they know one of them helped stop the Fifth Blight. One by the title of Sten, at the time? And King Cousland is friends with him, and knows full well what the Qunari intend to do one day. Ferelden will be ready, thanks in part to the Qunari helping to save Denerim.


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#53
Dai Grepher

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Treaties and alliances with the Qunari are pointless, they'll just use the period of peace in order to build up their forces and then launch another Storm. 

 

And in the meantime give you useful information to expand your own power and influence, which you can then use to prepare the Inquisition and other allies for the inevitable Qunari invasion.



#54
Dai Grepher

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I'd say that this is debatable, but then this really depends on what you think of the Qun. As I detest it, and would sooner have it wiped off the face of Thedas before ever giving it serious consideration, I would prefer to get as many of its members kicked out as I possibly could, so I guess it's not really sad from my point of view. 

 

As for Bull's decisions, he's not obligated to do what the Inquisitor suggests on the matter. It's not like they're conscripts. If he was truly committed, he'd just let his men take one for the team and the dreadnought would be saved. The alliance might suffer because of the Inquisitor's urging, but Bull would at least prove that his devotion to the Qun is unwavering. But since the Inquisitor can sway him so easily, well, it's like my father used to say: F*ck it. 

 

Edit: I would have been very interested to have a third option, where the Inquisitor turns it around and simply leaves the Chargers' fate to Bull. After all, they're his men. Why should I decide? Losing them would just free up expenses, and possibly ale. 

 

The Qun is a lie. But Bull likes the Qun. So I say he should be given the opportunity to either hold onto it or reject it. This should not happen against his freewill. Otherwise you're no different from the Qunari, all suppressing choice and whatnot.

 

And if he were seriously doubtful he would have withdrawn his men regardless.

 

I agree. Saying, "It's up to you Bull. They're your men, and I will support whatever decision you make", would have been a good option. It would have shown us what The Iron Bull really would have done.
 


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#55
King Killoth

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The Qun is a lie. But Bull likes the Qun. So I say he should be given the opportunity to either hold onto it or reject it. This should not happen against his freewill. Otherwise you're no different from the Qunari, all suppressing choice and whatnot.

 

And if he were seriously doubtful he would have withdrawn his men regardless.

 

I agree. Saying, "It's up to you Bull. They're your men, and I will support whatever decision you make", would have been a good option. It would have shown us what The Iron Bull really would have done.
 

from what I read if Bulls expressions and tone he wanted to save him men they are his boys and in the end he would have chosen them it was the qunari training that makes him look to the Inquisitor for the answer as he feels he can not make this choice himself


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#56
Dai Grepher

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*Mini spoilers*

Short answer is no, it's not worth it. I chose to put the interests of the Inquisition and thus all of Thedas above those of the inquisitor or Iron Bull, thus siding with the Qunari and saving the warship to secure an alliance that would hopefully ultimately spell doom for Corypheus. Logical thinking, yes?

 

Well, no. The best you get is some war table mission where you get a neat little staff schematic and possibly save some of Denerim from burning (none of which you actually see, mind, it's all just text on the war table).

 

Half of Denerim. And all the Vint spies in Skyhold cleared out, and the Vint spy network crushed.

 

More like you don't hear about half of Denerim burning to the ground.

 

Nice story BTW, though I would have ended it with a Shield Bash.



#57
Dai Grepher

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from what I read if Bulls expressions and tone he wanted to save him men they are his boys and in the end he would have chosen them it was the qunari training that makes him look to the Inquisitor for the answer as he feels he can not make this choice himself

 

Probably. But at least this way he gets to make the choice to stay with the Qun or leave it without any outside influences to pull him in either direction.



#58
The Baconer

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The Qun is a lie. But Bull likes the Qun. So I say he should be given the opportunity to either hold onto it or reject it. This should not happen against his freewill. Otherwise you're no different from the Qunari, all suppressing choice and whatnot.

 

Bull doesn't make a choice, he defers to the Inquisitor.



#59
Dai Grepher

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Here's how i see it:

 

The enemy of my enemy is just that and nothing more. The ultimate objective of the qunari is to conquer the entirety of thedas and brainwash or magically lobotomize the population. That will never change and you cannot negotiate it away. Just because they are focused on one of the inquisitions enemies right now does not mean that they themselves are not an enemy.

 

All the more reason to keep them closer.
 



#60
Dai Grepher

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And this is particularly close to home if your Inquisitor is a Marcher, considering what the Arishok and his men did to Kirkwall. 

 

Who cares? I'm from Ostwick. Kirkwall sucks!
 


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#61
Dai Grepher

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Bull doesn't make a choice, he defers to the Inquisitor.

 

I'm referring to the choice to stay with the Qun or reject it, not whether to save the Chargers or not. I'm saying let Bull choose to either leave the Qun or not, apart from the outside influence of saving the Chargers. If he saves the Chargers he is branded Tal-Vashoth, but he did not willing choose to leave the Qun.



#62
KaiserShep

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Nothing happens against Bull's will. In choosing to defer to the Inquisitor's suggestion, he basically made his choice. Gat laid it out perfectly clear: if he saves the Chargers, the alliance is dead as is his role in the Qun. Nothing was stopping him from rejecting the Inquisitor's advice and opting to sacrifice his men to save the ship. The Inquisitor can only urge, but not force him. 


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#63
The Baconer

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I'm referring to the choice to stay with the Qun or reject it, not whether to save the Chargers or not. I'm saying let Bull choose to either leave the Qun or not, apart from the outside influence of saving the Chargers. If he saves the Chargers he is branded Tal-Vashoth, but he did not willing choose to leave the Qun.

 

He can make that choice on his own time. If he wanted to live like a Qunari, he wouldn't be where he is in the first place.



#64
Steelcan

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Ignoring the terribly arbitrary choice that everyone saw coming from a mile away

 

I think this is one of the better dilemmas in the game.  There are tangible benefits to siding with the Qunari, more war table missions and so on, but there's the gut punch of having to sacrifice the Chargers.


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#65
KaiserShep

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Who cares? I'm from Ostwick. Kirkwall sucks!
 

 

If a military unit from a powerful nation sacked and destroyed half of, say, Boston, and tore apart a good chunk of its government in the process, I don't think my first response as a New Yorker would be "Who cares? I'm from New York. Boston sucks!" 



#66
Steelcan

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If a military unit from a powerful nation sacked and destroyed half of, say, Boston, and tore apart a good chunk of its government in the process, I don't think my first response as a New Yorker would be "Who cares? I'm from New York. Boston sucks!" 

as a Southerner I'd be ok with this


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#67
Darkstarr11

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And who said Bull had to bring the Chargers with him? Why not other companions of the Inquisition? It might seem like a test of character, but the Qunari could not have planned for Bull to bring the Chargers and split the groups up as he did. And even if they could, would they really risk a few Qunari and a dreadnaught on one possible Tal-Vashoth, especially when much simpler and less risky tests exist?

 

Logically, the Venatori have been planning the fire ship for a while and will use it regardless. They already attempted to assassinate at least one of the Ferelden monarchs. So they will keep trying no matter what. It seems the only thing that can even get the Inquisition involved in the first place is the Qunari alliance. Without that, the fire ship should succeed. Even if the Qunari try to stop the ship themselves without the Inquisition, they will not be successful. This is proven by the fact that the Inquisition can also fail if the right choices are not made at the Chore Table.

 

If you save the Chargers, then the unknown quantity remains an unknown quantity, and is in a position to harm you. Bringing them in close makes you aware of their capabilities and prepares you for them. Also, there are Venatori spies in Skyhold, which again, only the Qunari can pinpoint and trace back to the source.

 

Well your allies DON'T know that you saved a few mercs rather than got a foothold in with the Qunari. But Ferelden sure knows if you sided with the Qunari and together saved Denerim from being blown half to hell. Pretty sure they're happy about that. And as for what people know about the Qunari, they know one of them helped stop the Fifth Blight. One by the title of Sten, at the time? And King Cousland is friends with him, and knows full well what the Qunari intend to do one day. Ferelden will be ready, thanks in part to the Qunari helping to save Denerim.

 

Interesting.  I can see what you mean.  I remember though a conversation about the re-educators that Bull and the Inquisitor had.  About changing how someone thinks.  Bull went to them before.  Predicting someones actions, or helping guide them through social engineering isn't unheard of.  I'm still more towards them trying to test Bull, or force him to choose, but I see what you are saying.  Though, it wasn't uncommon for groups or governments to sacrifice troops or spies to ensure the loyalty of a higher ranked officer.  It happened in Japan, Persia, and many ancient states.  Still does in some cases.  After all, we only have the word of the Qunari agents as to the conditions of this mission.  I doubt even Gatt knows everything.  

 

Also, I admit that this can be chalked up to a writing flub.  

 

True.  Assisting the Qunari does give insight, and left alone, they may become a dangerous unknown quantity.  That is a very fair point.  I don't know if they will fail without the Inquisition helping them...perhaps in that instance, but as nothing further is revealed, its unknown if the Venatori get as far as they do without.  Some of it might have been caught by Leliana's people and neutralized before it ever got to the War Table.  Unknown.  There REALLY should have been something further, consequences and such for picking a side.  If THAT had been the case, it would have added depth to your choice, making it harder to just say 'Chargers Forever', and be done.

 

As to the allies, I'm sure they know, or WILL know.  Word travels, and soldiers gossip.  The Chargers don't come back, some one WILL talk.  They have spies too.  Your Orlesian and Free Marcher allies WILL hear of it...it's just a matter of when.  Orlais will be shrewd, MIGHT accept it, but the Free Marches would consider it a slight.  

 

AGAIN, there should have been a bigger impact about your choices.  The more I think of it, the more it saddens me that this wasn't thought out more.  This could have been a big thing.  Had a big impact upon the game.  Darn it... :P


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#68
Patchwork

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If there's political blow back about an alliance that could help the Inquisition fight demons falling from the sky and red lyruim being shipped all over Thedas then I'll set Josie on them.  

 

It's a pity the Blades of Hassarian don't play a part in the Qun quest, if you recruited them they provide backup and the Chargers live, if they're dead the Chargers die (if you choose the alliance) and if they're still alive and hostile the whole mission fails. 


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#69
DAO MAdhatter

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Doing the Qunari alliance war table missions also gets you a very nice Tier 3 staff schematic: Masterwork Archon Staff Schematic

3X5Zjhel.png


Is this given from the operation to find the guy in the place that involves several chained operations to determine who he is? If so, I've never gotten it. I couldn't figure out which choice was the right one.

#70
Forsythia77

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I think you need to evaluate whether your canon inquisitor is a pragmatist or a personal relationship builder.  If you are pragmatic, by all means, save the Dreadnaught.  If you are about personal relationships, save the Chargers.  For the record, I went wih the Chargers in every PT but one.  I let them die to experience that path, but it wasn't a decision I liked to make because I do not play as a pragmatist.  It made me feel...icky.  I always play as an inquisitor who builds personal relationships (even if that relationship is one where we shoot daggers at each other via our eyes).


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#71
c0bra951

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Doing the Qunari alliance war table missions also gets you a very nice Tier 3 staff schematic: Masterwork Archon Staff Schematic
 
3X5Zjhel.png

 

That does make a difference.  Ouch.  I had heard of this staff, but so far, I've been happy with the archon fire staff legendary schematic from the Black Emporium (which doesn't need to be fire).  It doesn't have the 2 extra slots.

 

Next time, maybe.



#72
King Killoth

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I think you need to evaluate whether your canon inquisitor is a pragmatist or a personal relationship builder.  If you are pragmatic, by all means, save the Dreadnaught.  If you are about personal relationships, save the Chargers.  For the record, I went wih the Chargers in every PT but one.  I let them die to experience that path, but it wasn't a decision I liked to make because I do not play as a pragmatist.  It made me feel...icky.  I always play as an inquisitor who builds personal relationships (even if that relationship is one where we shoot daggers at each other via our eyes).

well as I stated on page one I already made the choice to save the chargers. mostly for my head cannon being that I was tal'vashoth and my parents raised me out side of the qun for good reason. and from what every one says even bull it is not something that most people would be happy living under.. just another from of slavery. so I helped break bull away from the qun and made him into who he is The Iron F*cking Bull!!.. he seems much more happy about that



#73
fizzypop

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I always save the chargers because Qunari will go to war with the south eventually or backstab us. I don't trust them for a second.



#74
Jedi Master of Orion

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If a military unit from a powerful nation sacked and destroyed half of, say, Boston, and tore apart a good chunk of its government in the process, I don't think my first response as a New Yorker would be "Who cares? I'm from New York. Boston sucks!" 

 

Well being a Marcher is more like being European than being American. Kirkwall and Ostwick are different nations. Although Ostwick does have a history with Qunari as well, they were attacked in the Qunari Wars in the same campaign that saw them conquer Kirkwall the first time. Apparently it's the entire reason Ostwick has double walls.



#75
Uccio

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That does make a difference.  Ouch.  I had heard of this staff, but so far, I've been happy with the archon fire staff legendary schematic from the Black Emporium (which doesn't need to be fire).  It doesn't have the 2 extra slots.

 

Next time, maybe.

 

You can buy it too at some point. No need for the qun.