The Qun aren't offering you anything in that mission. They want to see if you are willing to put the Qun's goals ahead of the lives of your own men. They are testing to see if you are going to be a willing puppet and tool that they can use, or whether you are a threat by being a free-thinker.
Have never chosen the Qun over the lives of those under my command once, and never will in any playthrough.
You can buy it too at some point. No need for the qun.
I searched, but all I see is that you need to complete a series of missions related to Bull's quest. Those don't happen without siding with the Qun. Where can I buy it?
I searched, but all I see is that you need to complete a series of missions related to Bull's quest. Those don't happen without siding with the Qun. Where can I buy it?
The Black Emporium, the schematic is super expensive though.
No,unless you're a spy of the Qun which is fun to roleplay. 
The Black Emporium, the schematic is super expensive though.
If you're playing a mage, it's kind of worth it (I'd never spend the coin on companions), though the Staff of the Void is the next best thing and all you have to do is kill one of the Emprise du Lion ice dragons to get it.
I searched, but all I see is that you need to complete a series of missions related to Bull's quest. Those don't happen without siding with the Qun. Where can I buy it?
Could be also one of those merchant perks which give the schematics or the staff itself available. Can´t remember which. Also one of the dragons drops it too.
the black emporium for 15k only good staff other that is from a blues eyes white dragon drop in the du LionCould be also one of those merchant perks which give the schematics or the staff itself available. Can´t remember which. Also one of the dragons drops it too.
the black emporium for 15k only good staff other that is from a blues eyes white dragon drop in the du Lion
Yep, that was it.
I was just playing through and I noticed a few things. The Chargers DO have a good bit that they take care of. Such as:
Investigating either Redcliffe Castle or Therinfal Redoubt.
Dealing with the Envy Demon.
Scouting Haven, Adamant, and finding the Heretic Sister. Buying out the Orlesian Mercs, and then dealing with the Nobles. Inflating the Inquisition numbers after the Arbor Wilds. Claiming that Grey Warden Cache and hunting down that Venatori map. I'd say its not even, even...but they do quite a bit. That Envy Demon was dangerous...even the TEMPLARS didn't know it was there. Those mercs could have started another civil war, and the demons at Adamant were absolutely a problem. Qunari didn't help with that or even notice it. Looks like each takes care of different things. Mercs and demons are a threat to everyone. So it IS a bit of personal preference...who gets screwed? Orlais by demons and hired swords...or does Ferelden burn?
The first time I played this, I went with my gut emotional reaction: Save the Chargers.
On my second playthrough, I approached this with a more practical mentality. It wasn't about what was best for Bull, it was about what was best for the Inquisition. Now, of course after completing the game the first time I knew that it was totally and perfectly possibly to defeat Corypheus without a qunari alliance. But from a RP perspective, what they offered to bring the table was MUCH more valuable than a band of charming mercenaries. An entire spy network that'll extend my Inquisition's reach even further, or a couple of soldiers who apparently can't hold their own against a couple of Venatori mages? The answer was simple.
If it's all about arithmetic, you have seven Chargers versus hundreds of qunari aboard the dreadnought. Sure, they aren't loyal to you. But if it's all about saving lives, again... the answer is simple. For me, atleast.
And if you do save the dreadnought, you can ultimately:
Spoiler
People seem to think that Bull is much happier if you spare the Chargers. I would say initially, sure. But if you save the dreadnought he ultimately comes to terms with their deaths and accepts that his place has always been with the Qun, not living as Iron Bull. Some think that he's better off as Iron Bull. I'm not a Qun sympathizer myself, so I actually tend to agree with that. However, the alternative also has him looking over his shoulder for the rest of his life, dodging assassins and never being able to return to the place he calls home. It's kind of a lose-lose for the guy.
If you're doing what's best for Bull, save the Chargers.
If you're doing what's best for the Inquisition (and acting as a responsible leader, IMO), save the dreadnought.
Perfectly stated.
If a military unit from a powerful nation sacked and destroyed half of, say, Boston, and tore apart a good chunk of its government in the process, I don't think my first response as a New Yorker would be "Who cares? I'm from New York. Boston sucks!"
And what if it was... Detroit?
Interesting. I can see what you mean. I remember though a conversation about the re-educators that Bull and the Inquisitor had. About changing how someone thinks. Bull went to them before. Predicting someones actions, or helping guide them through social engineering isn't unheard of. I'm still more towards them trying to test Bull, or force him to choose, but I see what you are saying. Though, it wasn't uncommon for groups or governments to sacrifice troops or spies to ensure the loyalty of a higher ranked officer. It happened in Japan, Persia, and many ancient states. Still does in some cases. After all, we only have the word of the Qunari agents as to the conditions of this mission. I doubt even Gatt knows everything.
Also, I admit that this can be chalked up to a writing flub.
True. Assisting the Qunari does give insight, and left alone, they may become a dangerous unknown quantity. That is a very fair point. I don't know if they will fail without the Inquisition helping them...perhaps in that instance, but as nothing further is revealed, its unknown if the Venatori get as far as they do without. Some of it might have been caught by Leliana's people and neutralized before it ever got to the War Table. Unknown. There REALLY should have been something further, consequences and such for picking a side. If THAT had been the case, it would have added depth to your choice, making it harder to just say 'Chargers Forever', and be done.
As to the allies, I'm sure they know, or WILL know. Word travels, and soldiers gossip. The Chargers don't come back, some one WILL talk. They have spies too. Your Orlesian and Free Marcher allies WILL hear of it...it's just a matter of when. Orlais will be shrewd, MIGHT accept it, but the Free Marches would consider it a slight.
AGAIN, there should have been a bigger impact about your choices. The more I think of it, the more it saddens me that this wasn't thought out more. This could have been a big thing. Had a big impact upon the game. Darn it...
I understand. But also remember that the mission itself was to stop red lyrium from spreading to other parts of the world. Would the Qunari, pragmatic as they are, put that mission at risk of failure in order to set up an elaborate test for Hissrad? I can't imagine the Qunari doing that. I only see them making the best plan they can to stop the red lyrium.
I think the first mission in that quest line can result in the final mission failing. The Qunari send spies to Denerim to investigate, but without the Inquisition to work with the crown, the Qunari run into problems with the local authorities. The time it takes to smooth things over allows the Vints to get away and put more time into their fire ship launch. I could be wrong, but I think the wrong choice here will cause Denerim to burn.
Thanks, and I agree this quest should have been more. I think the whole set up seemed forced and unimaginative.
I was just playing through and I noticed a few things. The Chargers DO have a good bit that they take care of. Such as:
Investigating either Redcliffe Castle or Therinfal Redoubt.
Dealing with the Envy Demon.
Scouting Haven, Adamant, and finding the Heretic Sister. Buying out the Orlesian Mercs, and then dealing with the Nobles. Inflating the Inquisition numbers after the Arbor Wilds. Claiming that Grey Warden Cache and hunting down that Venatori map. I'd say its not even, even...but they do quite a bit. That Envy Demon was dangerous...even the TEMPLARS didn't know it was there. Those mercs could have started another civil war, and the demons at Adamant were absolutely a problem. Qunari didn't help with that or even notice it. Looks like each takes care of different things. Mercs and demons are a threat to everyone. So it IS a bit of personal preference...who gets screwed? Orlais by demons and hired swords...or does Ferelden burn?
I agree, they do contribute a lot. But there's no reason to choose one or the other. In my playthrough I exhausted all Chargers quests, and then I did Bull's personal quest, saving the dreadnaught, and then continuing on with the alliance.
Doing the Qunari alliance war table missions also gets you a very nice Tier 3 staff schematic: Masterwork Archon Staff Schematic
This is actually the reason I save the Chargers from now on. This staff just isn't as good as some of the others staffs you could find or even buy now that the Black Emporium is out.
The things, I don't think helping Ferelden is - pragmatically - in the interest of the Inquisition as an organization. A weaker Thedas generally - so long as you beat Corypheus - means a greater chance for you to embed the Inquisition as an institution into the fabric of the rest of Thedas.
The Chargers are no reason not to.
imo
If you exhaust Bull's dialogue prior to this mission then Bull relays how uncertain he is in the prospect of the Qun winning all. And the Qun winning all is the end game goal of the Qun. The Qunari know Bull is wavering and set this mission as a test of him. The mission's illogical restrictions might be there to force Bull to choose, and it is Bull choosing not the Quizzy... we as players just fill in that choice.
If you have exhausted Bull's and Krem's dialogue to this point (including missions) you'll know they are a highly capable force... almost The Dirty Dozen. As a player we know the Qunari are extremely formidable but zealous in their beliefs, any deal with them will certainly be dissolved as soon as they say the Qun demands it. The fire in Denerim is never mentioned if the Chargers are sided with, almost as if those events only transpire in "that other timeline" if you will, as such using that as a point for the Qunari is valid but shaky.
In Short: All told the lore and storyline seems to favor The Chargers over the Qunari.
I disagree. Bull looks to the Inquisitor for guidance, and the Inquisitor's response is what decides Bull's next action.
I also disagree that the Chargers are a formidable force. They weren't even capable of handling some Venatori. All their prior missions were easy ones. The Storm Coast one was easy too, but not easy enough.
The Inquisition can call the alliance off just as instantly. And the important thing to realize is that the Inquisition knows that the Qunari intend to conquer the world at some point.
The fire in Denerim is probably not mentioned because BioWare couldn't figure out how to bring it up outside of the Chore Table reports. The chain of events is set in motion when a Venatori agent sets the initial fire to an area where the monarch was at the time. There is no outside influence on this individual from the Qunari or Inquisition. Now, it's possible that the fire ship plot was originally intended to be carried out at a later date. Which is why you can take your sweet time getting around to this particular mission. The only reason the Vints launch the fire ship early is because the Qunari and Inquisition get involved unexpectedly. Thus forcing the Vints to launch before they are ready. This might also explain why only half of Denerim is burned down. Perhaps the original plan was to take more time in stocking the fire ship with explosives and fuel to destroy all of Denerim, but the alliance forced them to launch with what they had.
If that's true...
This is actually the reason I save the Chargers from now on. This staff just isn't as good as some of the others staffs you could find or even buy now that the Black Emporium is out.
I got the same staff, and I watched the Chargers die. The reason is because I completed the Chargers missions in full before I did Bull's personal quest.
The things, I don't think helping Ferelden is - pragmatically - in the interest of the Inquisition as an organization. A weaker Thedas generally - so long as you beat Corypheus - means a greater chance for you to embed the Inquisition as an institution into the fabric of the rest of Thedas.
Unless you are going for diplomatic relations and strong alliances. In which case saving Denerim earns you a lot of trust with Ferelden's crown and other nobility. This also creates special ties between the Inquisitor and the Hero of Ferelden, if the Hero is one of Ferelden's monarchs.
On the other hand, a destroyed Denerim only creates a weaker monarch. It does not harm the banns directly. They could conceivably go on to snatch up more power for themselves while the crown tries to pick up the charred remains of the capital. This would only create a destabilized and chaotic Ferelden. One that the Inquisition would not be able to influence or use to its advantage. Better to preserve Ferelden's strength and have them owe you one.
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