287 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

I got the same staff, and I watched the Chargers die. The reason is because I completed the Chargers missions in full before I did Bull's personal quest.

 

The Chargers have operations all the way until What Pride Had Wrought, so unless Bull's quest is available all the way until that part of the game, you can't complete all of their operations until that point. 

 

Unless you are going for diplomatic relations and strong alliances. In which case saving Denerim earns you a lot of trust with Ferelden's crown and other nobility. This also creates special ties between the Inquisitor and the Hero of Ferelden, if the Hero is one of Ferelden's monarchs.

 

On the other hand, a destroyed Denerim only creates a weaker monarch. It does not harm the banns directly. They could conceivably go on to snatch up more power for themselves while the crown tries to pick up the charred remains of the capital. This would only create a destabilized and chaotic Ferelden. One that the Inquisition would not be able to influence or use to its advantage. Better to preserve Ferelden's strength and have them owe you one.

 

 

 

 

Saving Denerim certainly helps bolster ties, but Denerim suffering at the hands of the Venatori doesn't necessarily hurt the Inquisition's standing with anyone either, since, after all, the Inquisition still did more than most to quell the madness. 

 

Either way, Ferelden still owes you one. 

[Urzon]

Unless you are going for diplomatic relations and strong alliances. In which case saving Denerim earns you a lot of trust with Ferelden's crown and other nobility. This also creates special ties between the Inquisitor and the Hero of Ferelden, if the Hero is one of Ferelden's monarchs.
 
On the other hand, a destroyed Denerim only creates a weaker monarch. It does not harm the banns directly. They could conceivably go on to snatch up more power for themselves while the crown tries to pick up the charred remains of the capital. This would only create a destabilized and chaotic Ferelden. One that the Inquisition would not be able to influence or use to its advantage. Better to preserve Ferelden's strength and have them owe you one.

They can owe you one either way if played right.

If Ferelden becomes destabilized and chaotic, the Inquisition can swoop in and act as a stabilizing force. Josie and Leliana then starts pulling strings to get the optimal outcome for the Inquisition, and once Ferelden is stabilized again, the monarchy owes the Inquisition hugely for maintaining order when the country was falling apart when they couldn't.

Afterwards, you would also have a large portion of the Ferelden population and nobility thirsty for Venatori's blood, since they attacked and killed a good number of their people in their capitol. If swung the right way, this could draw in a large number of new recruits for the Inquisition's forces, and the nobles would be more willing to possibly donate and contribute to the Inquisition's cause against their common enemy.

[Bizantura]

Soldiers, mecenaries, you are nothing more but cannon fodder.

 

To make that bitter pill swallow better "the powers that wield" invented the hero archetype and if you are lucky to survive fysically you get atention and medals that go with being a hero.

 

Give up your sovereignty, live with the consequences.

[Lazarillo]

I also disagree that the Chargers are a formidable force. They weren't even capable of handling some Venatori. All their prior missions were easy ones. The Storm Coast one was easy too, but not easy enough.

 

The Qunari ship exists to make war on a nation of mages, and yet it gets taken out by just a couple of spellbinders.  Who's not formidable now?

[Dabrikishaw]

I got the same staff, and I watched the Chargers die. The reason is because I completed the Chargers missions in full before I did Bull's personal quest.

Yes, that's exactly what you need to do in order to get the Masterwork Archon Staff schematic. 

 

The point being, I don't kill the Chargers because I don't find the schematic a good enough reward for it.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Also, what I want for my associate and the outcome I prefer are not intertwined here.

 

Bull should be his own man IMO, but I am not going to sacrifice the alliance just for him to see the light.

 

Similarly, I had Cullen stop taking the lyrium because of my concern for him. I am not really supportive of all Templars doing the same, though.

[Dai Grepher]

The Chargers can hunt and kill Envy, a job on the level of the Quizzy and companions. That's a highly capable force, or maybe even formidable is appropriate. However I reserved formidable for the Qunari as a whole not the Chargers. As to the Chargers dying in this mission, we (aka The Quizzy) can get a "game over" screen too. :-)

Also seems odd that Envy Hunt variation gets programmed (and many others) but the Denerim fire never appears again. Especially odd considering the devs POV is the game's timeline was multiple years. It falls much more logically in line with, but not provably, being part of the test the Qunari have created for Bull.

Regardless and to be clear; You (Dai Grepher) chose The Alliance over The Chargers, I don't think you're wrong. You made a sound decision. The Quizzy, the Player, is in the right with either choice... it's Bull who is facing a right or wrong. Again while it's obviously true we're outside the box picking the option and thus have the Quizzy voice a pov inside the box, Bull is the one making the choice as it's one only he can decide. This mission isn't about the Alliance, it's about Bull. Your Bull decided he was Qunari afterall.

 

Not exactly. The Chargers hunted down Envy among the various towns and wilderness. The Herald on the other hand had to take on red templars, and then had to fight the Envy demon in his or her own mind. According to Krem's report... and I'm using the most complimentary timing for the Chargers for this assessment, which is right after dealing with Redcliffe and before closing the breach. The report (Investigate Theirinfall Redoubt) states that for both Leliana and Cullen that the forces that were there withdrew. In Cullen's they couldn't even get in to most places in the castle.

 

Then the next quest in the chain (Hunt Down Theirinfall Redoubt Demon) will either have Josephine work with the banns to place guards and make things easier, or Leliana who will just leave everything to the Chargers. Both advisor choices end the same. They track it down and kill it as a group. Envy's only strategy was to impersonate everyone from Cassandra, to The Iron Bull, to Krem, and others I would assume. So I'm sure this battle was one of running, holding attacks to make sure the person they were targeting was the Envy demon, advancing on it, and this repeated numerous times until they all finally killed it. But again, this is way different from the battle between Envy and the Herald. Envy could call on red templars and it had its own natural form to fight with, which is deadlier than any one humanoid character. With the Herald, it was 4 vs. 1, then 4 vs. 1 + several red templars, then 5 vs. 1 when Cole joined in. With the Chargers it was always at least 6 vs. 1. And if The Iron Bull was there, and I assume he would have been, then that makes at least seven. There are also some Chargers who are nameless "throat cutters" that we see on the Storm Coast, so there were possibly more than just 7 Chargers against the Envy Demon alone.

 

As for the possibility of game over, if we're going to bring in gameplay issues, then I should point out the enemies in Bull's personal quest were only level 7 if I recall correctly. So really, the Inquisitor should only realistically get a game over if he's level 7 or less.

 

I'm afraid I don't understand your second point. What Envy Hunt variation? Denerim doesn't get mentioned unless you have the Qunari as allies. So if you don't, then obviously you receive no report from the Qunari about it. But what does that have to do with the Storm Coast possibly being a test for Bull? Also, the devs did not give a time frame from Inquisition's events. That was just a misunderstood statement of Gaider's.

 

I agree that there is no wrong answer in Bull's quest. Both choices have their merits and their logic. I think I understand what you're getting at with Bull. Ultimately it was his choice. I'm just saying the Inquisitor influenced it. But yes, Bull could have ignored the Inquisitor's suggestion. I think a good hypothetical would be to see the Inquisitor tell Bull that they need to hold the hill at all costs to protect the dreadnaught, and then see Bull agree with that logic but then sound the retreat anyway because he doesn't want his friends to die.

 

As much as I'd like to think the mission is about Bull, it's not. It's about the alliance and doing what's necessary. I wish deciding Bull's belief came with a mission that did not have so many other implications attached.

[Dai Grepher]

The Chargers have operations all the way until What Pride Had Wrought, so unless Bull's quest is available all the way until that part of the game, you can't complete all of their operations until that point. 

 

Saving Denerim certainly helps bolster ties, but Denerim suffering at the hands of the Venatori doesn't necessarily hurt the Inquisition's standing with anyone either, since, after all, the Inquisition still did more than most to quell the madness. 

 

Either way, Ferelden still owes you one. 

 

Actually they have operations up until Doom Upon All the World, which is the final mission. And yes, I saved The Iron Bull's personal quest until shortly before Doom Upon. I think this is logical storywise, as it makes sense for the few remaining loyal Venatori to ship as much red lyrium off the Storm Coast as possible in order to plant the seeds of their infectious cult in other nations. A final attempt to preserve themselves and Corypheus' plan to take over the world. Likewise with the fire ship. One last-ditch effort to cause destruction and death in Ferelden's capital and the target of the most recent archdemon. Finally, the Venatori spy network. The last remnants of Corypheus' loyal forces. With the death of his last remaining general, and Calpernia defecting along with the now ex-Venatori, Corypheus has nothing left in the world except the orb and his dragon. Thus, he plays his only remaining cards, and hopes to kill the Inquisitor in one last battle. So to me, these missions explain why Corypheus waits so long after the Temple of Mythal to make his final desperate move, because he was waiting to see if the other plans would work out first.

 

It doesn't hurt the Inquisition's standing, but it still hurts the alliance by reducing Ferelden's effectiveness. It could also drain Inquisition resources if chaos breaks out in Ferelden and the Inquisition chooses to supply aid to those effected by it.

 

Ferelden owes you one regardless, but unless your Inquisition accepts scorched bits of debris as payment, Ferelden will be unable to pay you back for quite some time.

[MyKingdomCold]

There's something I found a little "odd" regarding the Chargers.  Are there more of them than the ones that are actually shown?  I mean, if you talk to Krem about the Chargers, there's something about Skinner, I think or could be someone else, and her people.  Also when you have drinks with the Chargers, Bull says that some of the others are elsewhere ( I forgot what he actually says).  

[Dai Grepher]

They can owe you one either way if played right.

If Ferelden becomes destabilized and chaotic, the Inquisition can swoop in and act as a stabilizing force. Josie and Leliana then starts pulling strings to get the optimal outcome for the Inquisition, and once Ferelden is stabilized again, the monarchy owes the Inquisition hugely for maintaining order when the country was falling apart when they couldn't.

Afterwards, you would also have a large portion of the Ferelden population and nobility thirsty for Venatori's blood, since they attacked and killed a good number of their people in their capitol. If swung the right way, this could draw in a large number of new recruits for the Inquisition's forces, and the nobles would be more willing to possibly donate and contribute to the Inquisition's cause against their common enemy.

 

True, it can act in that manner. But would this go as planned, or would the banns see that as intrusion and interference? Would they band together against the Inquisition? And what of Orlais? Would they pull their support for the Inquisition if they suddenly saw their gold going toward building up those barbaric dog lords? Or would Orlais see this as cause to lay claim to Ferelden, since it was their gold that helped prop it back up? Or if Gaspard is the emperor, would he seize on that opportunity to launch an attack against Ferelden?

 

The Venatori blood... eh, that's something I can't get behind. First there's the matter of if the fire ship blows up half of Denerim or not. It's possible this doesn't happen naturally until after Cory is already dead. And in that case the Venatori might not even go through with the fire ship plan at all since their "god" is dead. So really the only way to ensure that half of Denerim is blown up is to side with the Qunari and then make mistakes during that Chore Table quest line so that half of Denerim is blown up. Second, even in this case, Ferelden doesn't lend any more troops to your cause than normal. And the only time you see this is in the Arbor Wilds. So even if they have an axe to grind against the Venatori, they don't show it in the Arbor Wilds. Third, Ferelden might actually commit less troops from a storyline perspective if those troops are needed to keep order in Ferelden after Denerim's destruction (though I admit this is just a hypothetical). Fourth, if the fire ship destroys half of Denerim after the events of the game, then there's really only a few pockets of Venatori to deal with at that point, not a main force. So Ferelden's help at this point in time would be unnecessary.

[Dai Grepher]

The Qunari ship exists to make war on a nation of mages, and yet it gets taken out by just a couple of spellbinders.  Who's not formidable now?

 

No, the dreadnaught exists to destroy any ship in a matter of one, two, or three volleys at the most. They are slow and not well maneuverable, but they are extremely powerful. The dreadnaught is not capable of hitting mages on land who can fire from cover. The Iron Bull explains this to you if you ask him about it before the teams set out to take their locations. The dreadnaught's job was to destroy the red lyrium ship. Your job and the Chargers' job was to provide cover for the dreadnaught to complete its mission and withdraw. That's why if the Chargers retreat there is no one to stop the Venatori mages from firing on the dreadnaught from the coastline.

 

The Venatori go after the Chargers because they know they can't fire at the dreadnaught while the Chargers provide cover. But if The Iron Bull sounds the retreat, the Venatori run back to the coast and start firing because they know the Chargers have left and they'll never catch them. If The Iron Bull does not sound the retreat, the Venatori make it up the hill. In which case the Chargers have no way to escape. By the time the Venatori close off the Chargers' escape route, the dreadnaught is safely out of range. Which means the Venatori can only get their retribution by killing the Chargers.

[Dai Grepher]

There's something I found a little "odd" regarding the Chargers.  Are there more of them than the ones that are actually shown?  I mean, if you talk to Krem about the Chargers, there's something about Skinner, I think or could be someone else, and her people.  Also when you have drinks with the Chargers, Bull says that some of the others are elsewhere ( I forgot what he actually says).  

 

Yes, there are, and The Iron Bull acknowledges this. However, it is shown that those nameless Chargers are with Krem on the hill. So while there were more Chargers than just the ones we met, those Chargers were also part of the Storm Coast mission, and they too were killed during it if you chose to save the dreadnaught.

[zambingo]

:-)

The Envy Hunt Variation was mentioned because it is an arc that occurs when a different path is taken, the dev team programmed in variations to provide world consistency. Yet the Denerim Fire arc never happens with the Chargers. You used the Denerim Fire as a reason to keep the Alliance, but it seems to be a variable event not a fixed point (to turn a Whovian phrase).

Bull's companion quest is about him, not the Alliance. If it was about the Alliance, if the Qunari valued the Alliance then they wouldn't give up on it because an agent turned on them. The Qunari want Bull and their Alliance was a tool to lure him to this decision, frankly to insist otherwise is to ignore all context.

Gaider was the lead writer and obviously part of the dev team. While I am not aware of him recanting or clarifying his 'Inquisition takes place over a couple years' point, that doesn't mean he didn't. So pass there.

[Darkstarr11]

:-)

The Envy Hunt Variation was mentioned because it is an arc that occurs when a different path is taken, the dev team programmed in variations to provide world consistency. Yet the Denerim Fire arc never happens with the Chargers. You used the Denerim Fire as a reason to keep the Alliance, but it seems to be a variable event not a fixed point (to turn a Whovian phrase).

Bull's companion quest is about him, not the Alliance. If it was about the Alliance, if the Qunari valued the Alliance then they wouldn't give up on it because an agent turned on them. The Qunari want Bull and their Alliance was a tool to lure him to this decision, frankly to insist otherwise is to ignore all context.

Gaider was the lead writer and obviously part of the dev team. While I am not aware of him recanting or clarifying his 'Inquisition takes place over a couple years' point, that doesn't mean he didn't. So pass there.

 

Yeah, I kinda felt the same.  Honestly, if they REALLY wanted the alliance, they could have said, kick out (or kill) Bull and his Chargers, and we will give you the alliance.  That is, if he chose the Chargers over the Qunari.  THAT...btw...would have made it a much more difficult choice.  Especially if they added something to spice it up, say unique schematics or a TON of influence.  Honestly, if this had been made prior to DAII, I think they would have done it, or something similar.  

 

STILL, I like this debate.  Though I'm not choosing the Qunari just for that schematic.  Heh, my mages are just fine dealing the death that they are right now...

[Dai Grepher]

The Envy Hunt Variation was mentioned because it is an arc that occurs when a different path is taken, the dev team programmed in variations to provide world consistency. Yet the Denerim Fire arc never happens with the Chargers. You used the Denerim Fire as a reason to keep the Alliance, but it seems to be a variable event not a fixed point (to turn a Whovian phrase).

Bull's companion quest is about him, not the Alliance. If it was about the Alliance, if the Qunari valued the Alliance then they wouldn't give up on it because an agent turned on them. The Qunari want Bull and their Alliance was a tool to lure him to this decision, frankly to insist otherwise is to ignore all context.

Gaider was the lead writer and obviously part of the dev team. While I am not aware of him recanting or clarifying his 'Inquisition takes place over a couple years' point, that doesn't mean he didn't. So pass there.

 

Um... yeah... it never happens with the Chargers because it only happens with the Qunari. Just like how the Envy Hunt doesn't happen with the Chargers if you side with the Templars. I already addressed that point with the fire ship. It's possible that half of Denerim was destroyed and we simply never got news of it in the game. Or it's possible that the Venatori were still preparing the fire ship to destroy all of Denerim, and the ship won't launch until after the end of the game if you saved the Chargers. Or it's possible that the remaining Venatori give up on their fire ship plan once they learn their "new god" is dead. Logically, this should not be a variable event. The plan should still exist regardless. The only way it can exist as a variable is if the Venatori create the fire ship plan as a direct result of your action during the Storm Coast operation. But based on the facts of this mission, it seems this was being planned for quite some time.

 

But it wasn't just Bull turning on them. The Inquisitor is the one who told him to sound the retreat. The Qunari blame Bull for his action, but they also blame the Inquisitor for agreeing with the retreat. To refer back to my hypothetical, if the Inquisitor had told Bull to have the Chargers hold the hill, and then Bull sounded the retreat anyway, then the Qunari simply would have blamed Bull and pursued the alliance with the Inquisition. Another hypothetical, would the Qunari pursue the alliance if Bull is still allowed to serve the Inquisition, or would you have to dismiss him from your party?

 

No it wasn't a lure for Bull. There were other way to test him. A mission to stop red lyrium from spreading is not the time for such a test. It just so happened that the mission provided the Qunari insight into Bull's loyalties. Besides, if all they wanted was to test Bull, then why did they continue to provide information to the Inquisition afterward? Why not simply recall Bull and forget about the alliance?

 

Gaider thought the question was about how long the video game took to make, not how much time passed in the story from start to end.

[zambingo]

Thanks for the info re: Gaider.

However you're fixed on the Envy Hunt being THE point, it was an example that the devs programmed in variations for major events. You use the Denerim Fire as an important point for the Alliance, so important you extensively detail how it could be pivotal, but it only occurs in one path. There is no variation mission to deal with such an important event. You suggest it could still happen because importance, but it doesn't, so the suggestion has as much weight as someone's head canon about their Warden.

You also are still ignoring the context. Bull can make any choice he wants, in fact it is such a deep choice only he can make it. To insist otherwise is saying my employer can tell me from this project on I'm [fill in a religion]. The Quizzy makes no such stance. The Quizzy is not sounding the horn, the Quizzy is not telling Bull what to believe. The player is choosing what Bull chooses internally and the Quizzy acts according to that stance.

After the decision the Quizzy can still bring up the Alliance with an olive branch apology for how things went, but this important Alliance is so important the Qunari drop it because their own agent sucks at being Qunari. The Qunari don't care about an Alliance, this mission is 100% about Bull being their loyal agent inside the Inquisition.

[Urzon]

Yet the Denerim Fire arc never happens with the Chargers. You used the Denerim Fire as a reason to keep the Alliance, but it seems to be a variable event not a fixed point (to turn a Whovian phrase).

It's also entirely possible that, if you didn't form the alliance, the Ben-Hassrath simply took care of the Venatori fire ship on their own. We learn from the war table missions that the Ben-Hassrath investigating didn't really need our help on the matter, and the Inquisitor's role was mostly either smoothing over details with the Ferelden authorities (or not at all) and simply suggesting courses of action. Token leadership at best since the Ben-Hassrath are already trained to deal with these things quickly and privately.

The Qunari wouldn't have felt the need to report back to the Inquisition, the group that turned down their offer of an alliance, that they took down a Venatori plot, and Ferelden wouldn't either if they didn't really know the full extent of the matter at hand with the exploding ship on their river.

[Dai Grepher]

Thanks for the info re: Gaider.

However you're fixed on the Envy Hunt being THE point, it was an example that the devs programmed in variations for major events. You use the Denerim Fire as an important point for the Alliance, so important you extensively detail how it could be pivotal, but it only occurs in one path. There is no variation mission to deal with such an important event. You suggest it could still happen because importance, but it doesn't, so the suggestion has as much weight as someone's head canon about their Warden.

You also are still ignoring the context. Bull can make any choice he wants, in fact it is such a deep choice only he can make it. To insist otherwise is saying my employer can tell me from this project on I'm [fill in a religion]. The Quizzy makes no such stance. The Quizzy is not sounding the horn, the Quizzy is not telling Bull what to believe. The player is choosing what Bull chooses internally and the Quizzy acts according to that stance.

After the decision the Quizzy can still bring up the Alliance with an olive branch apology for how things went, but this important Alliance is so important the Qunari drop it because their own agent sucks at being Qunari. The Qunari don't care about an Alliance, this mission is 100% about Bull being their loyal agent inside the Inquisition.

 

No problem.

 

I understand about variations for major events. But I'm saying the fire ship chain only occurs in one path because that is the only path that makes it possible for the Inquisition to be involved in it or know about it. Saving the Chargers does nothing to make you aware of the fire ship plot. You don't know that it doesn't happen. Just because you don't hear about it in the game doesn't mean it still doesn't take place or won't take place in the near future after the game.
 

Sorry, but you're just plain wrong on that. If this were Bull's choice alone then the dialogue wheel would apply only to him. He would be the one making the choice, and then the Inquisitor would be the one who simply responds to it with a comment like, "Then it's your call, Bull". But instead we see Bull look to the Inquisitor who has one of two options, one that has him tell Bull to call them back and one that has him tell Bull that they need to hold the hill. Bull goes with whichever the Inquisitor chooses, which proves this isn't Bull's choice. He's split down the middle on the issue.

 

If the Inquisitor tells Bull to pull them, the Qunari turn down an alliance with the Inquisition because the Inquisitor showed poor judgment in their opinion. The Qunari care about an alliance, otherwise they would deny it in either case. It's just that they don't want to ally with an organization led by someone who puts merc lives above the mission. That's how they see it. They see the Inquisition as unworthy if the Inquisitor tells Bull to sound the retreat.

 

Again, this can't possibly be set up by the Qunari. There's no way they could have known that Bull would split the groups up as he did or that the Venatori would act as they did, or that the Chargers would not be able to handle the job. You know what an easier test would be? Ordering Bull to send his Chargers to a location on the Storm Coast where they would be mercilessly blown to pieces by a Qunari dreadnaught. Why? Because the Qun demands it. That would be a true test of Bull's loyalty. And as for what happened in the game, this alleged test failed. Bull looked to the Inquisitor for what to do. Bull did not prove that he could be loyal to the Qun without someone there to encourage him to do the "right" thing.

[KaiserShep]

It's not Bull's choice if you look at it like a gameplay sequence, but in this scenario, Bull is fully capable of making his own decisions. His indecision is irrelevant. If the Inquisitor's choice is considered a failing, then it is as much Bull's failing as it is his/hers. Consider that the stakes here are stacked well against Bull and not the other. Bull is risking far more than the Inquisitor is, because between the two, only one of them is facing a crossroad when it comes to their role in their respective societies. Regardless of the outcome, the Inquisitor is still the leader of a powerful organization, whereas Bull will become a pariah among his people. It's not like it's a gamble. He knows the consequences. There isn't a chance that it works out well if he defies Gat. If he can't make up his mind, that's his fault. His lack of resolve to see that the demands of the Qun are met regardless of what some bas says is his own doing and no one else's.

[Arisugawa]

Cobbling together some of my earlier posts to reply:

 

A surprising number of fans feel that this is some manner of test for Bull set up by the Qunari. I find this highly unlikely - he was a good agent, but I doubt they are willing to risk a dreadnought and its crew just to test the loyalty of that agent. It's a terrible price for the Qun to pay if Bull doesn't choose the Qun over his current life, and the Qunari (as far as we can tell) do not waste anything if they can avoid it.

 

A number of other fans feel that you, as a the player, should not look at this as anything more than you (again, as the player and not the Inquisitor) choosing the direction of Iron Bull's narrative. I find it difficult to do that myself; I have to frame this choice in terms of how the Inquisitor would do it in the moment in order to make the whole scenario feel right. As a player, I inevitably feel I made the wrong choice regardless of which one I choose. I feel I let the Inquisition down if I sacrifice the dreadnought, and I feel I let Bull and the Chargers down if I do not.

 

If you're looking at this from a narrative perspective in so far as developing a canon storyline for your Inquisitor:

 

Sacrifice the Dreadnought:

• No alliance with the Qunari - this may or may not have consequences for southern Thedas later. No Ben-Hassrath intelligence being shared, no Ben-Hassrath War Table missions. Qunari may be unlikely to make similar offer in the future.
• Bull's Chargers available - Krem & Co will be available for other War Table missions. From a narrative perspective, this can also have unspoken effects on the morale of the Inquisition soldiers. Both because the Inquisitor was unwilling to sacrifice her/his people, and because the Chargers are very well respected amongst the other troops. Also, keep in mind the Chargers are much more than the five or so you meet at Skyhold. It's a much bigger company than that, you only meet 5 of them.
• Iron Bull declared Tal-Vashoth by the Qunari. He questions his himself and his ability to keep his composure. Fellow companions all try to sooth this by saying they will help him, that they will be there for him if needs them. He seems to appreciate this. His overall mood does not change that much; his introspection comes out largely when other companions ask him questions.

Sacrifice the Chargers:

• Alliance with the Qunari - this may or may not have consequences for southern Thedas later. Ben-Hassrath intelligence willingly shared, Ben-Hassrath War Table missions. Long strings of operations involving tracking down and destroying Venatori operatives and their missions within Thedas take place because of this cooperation. While you do not see them in action, mission reports indicate that the Ben-Hassrath are committing their people to this, not just forwarding the intelligence to the Inquisition.
• Bull's Charges unavailable. Krem & Co gone, no War Table missions for them. From a narrative perspective, this can have unspoken effects on the morale of the Inquisition. The Inquisitor choose an Alliance over part of her/his people; this may have the effect of the Inquisitor appearing imperious and/or willing to sacrifice in the short term to win the long game. The individual military will probably not be as pleased, but the nobility and backers of the Inquisition may have more respect.
• Iron Bull remains with the Qun and is happy that the Alliance is working. However, the loss of the Chargers wrecks him. He withdraws and is inconsolable over their sacrifice. His demeanor becomes much more Qunari outwardly; Solas and Bull snap at each other constantly. At the end, he seems okay about returning to the Qun - this may or may not be genuine as he's had a lot of time to contemplate since the events on the Storm Coast.

 

Sacrificing the Chargers, in my opinion is the better choice for the Inquisition overall, and it's the hard choice that leader of the Inquisition needs to make.

 

 

You, as the Inquisitor, have a responsibility to the Qunari. Assuming that no hidden "we are testing Hissrad's loyalty" subterfuge exists and this is exactly what it seems to be, the Qunari brought the dreadnought in to sink the Venatori vessel under the condition that the Inquisition provide ground support. That was part of the arrangement in having this operation take place. They would not have risked the vessel and its crew had the Inquisition not agreed to support it.

 

Abandoning this responsibility is essentially saying, "once the Venatori ship is sunk, you are on your own. Expect no further support from the Inquisition."

 

If you do not protect the dreadnought, you're going to lose the alliance because the Arishok, or Ariqun, or whomever, is going to ask Gatt what happened at that battle. And he is going to tell the Qunari leadership that the Inquisition chose to retreat rather than honor their arrangement.

 

If this was not Bull's Chargers on that other hill, and just some nameless Inquisition soldiers under Cullen's command that the Inquisitor had never spoken to before, would you balk at sacrificing them to ensure the operation is successful? The fact that you have met them should not alter your Inquisitor's position. If it does, then your Inquisitor has no business making military or diplomatic decisions and should leave them to Cullen and Josephine, respectively.

 

Because if that's how your Inquisitor honestly feels, that the Qunari vessel you agreed to protect is not worth protecting at the cost of some of your people's lives, then you are not prepared to honor your half of the arrangement and you're better off telling Bull not to bother arranging the operation when he first suggests it. You become the deceitful party otherwise. Lives were going to be at risk from the moment you accepted Bull's offer to work with the Ben-Hassrath on this. If you were not prepared to lose some of them for the alliance, you should have never agreed to work with the Qunari in the first place. 

 

To quote from elsewhere, "To be a good soldier you must love the army. But to be a good officer you must be willing to order the death of the thing you love. This is a very hard thing to do" - Michael Shaara, The Killer Angels

[Lazarillo]

You, as the Inquisitor, have a responsibility to the Qunari. Assuming that no hidden "we are testing Hissrad's loyalty" subterfuge exists and this is exactly what it seems to be, the Qunari brought the dreadnought in to sink the Venatori vessel under the condition that the Inquisition provide ground support. That was part of the arrangement in having this operation take place. They would not have risked the vessel and its crew had the Inquisition not agreed to support it.

 

 

The Qunari also insisted that you solve the problem their way, and its their bad intelligence that puts the Inquisition's men in danger.  If things went the way you were told they were "supposed to" go, and the Chargers still couldn't handle it, that would be one thing.  But assuming, as you are, that everything taking place is true at face value, that still just means the Ben Hassrath completely bungled their part of the operation. 

 

Even putting aside that it's the Chargers, we're left with a scenario where either the Qunari on the ship are going to die, or Inquisition soldiers are going to die.  In both cases, the dreadnaught sinks the smuggling ship before things go to pot, so the mission has already been accomplished, and the Inquisition pulling back is not going to have an effect the outcome, other than deciding whose soldiers are sacrificed.  The agreement has been honored, and I'm not saying that an agreement where you back out at the first sign of hardship is a good one, but if we're going to argue about the Inquisition's responsibility to protect Qunari lives, what about the Qunari's responsibility to protect Inquisition lives.  I suspect Cullen would have told the Qun exactly where to stick it in that sort of situation, too, to be honest.

 

And speaking of backing out at the first sign of hardship, that's exactly what the Qunari do.  The moment that some of their own guys get sacrificed for the sake of working with the Inquisition, they show themselves to be just as much of fair-weather friends.  Granted, that's a hindsight moment that you may or may not be able to justify predicting in character, but the Qun shows itself to be just as unworthy of your trust, honestly.

[BSpud]

I've only played it once so far but my impression was that I was feeling out the Qunari. My Inq is not a big fan of theirs and was suspicious it was a set-up (with Bull being played, too). So no, I don't agree that in my case I had any responsibility to the Qunari or had any full-fledged arrangement. I was testing them as much as they were testing me, and if they can't see that it's way too early in our relationship for me to sacrifice the lives of troops because of a flaw in an operation I had no input in, so be it. It takes two to overcome that mutual lack of trust and confidence, and the Qunari did themselves no favors taking the ball and going home. I've got too much on my plate to worry about emotionally babysitting those inflexible man-children the whole way.

[BSpud]

 

In both cases, the dreadnaught sinks the smuggling ship before things go to pot, so the mission has already been accomplished, and the Inquisition pulling back is not going to have an effect the outcome, other than deciding whose soldiers are sacrificed.  The agreement has been honored, and I'm not saying that an agreement where you back out at the first sign of hardship is a good one, but if we're going to argue about the Inquisition's responsibility to protect Qunari lives, what about the Qunari's responsibility to protect Inquisition lives.  I suspect Cullen would have told the Qun exactly where to stick it in that sort of situation, too, to be honest.

 

And speaking of backing out at the first sign of hardship, that's exactly what the Qunari do.  The moment that some of their own guys get sacrificed for the sake of working with the Inquisition, they show themselves to be just as much of fair-weather friends.  Granted, that's a hindsight moment that you may or may not be able to justify predicting in character, but the Qun shows itself to be just as unworthy of your trust, honestly.

 

Ninja'd.

 

Well put.

[Darkstarr11]

 

The Qunari also insisted that you solve the problem their way, and its their bad intelligence that puts the Inquisition's men in danger.  If things went the way you were told they were "supposed to" go, and the Chargers still couldn't handle it, that would be one thing.  But assuming, as you are, that everything taking place is true at face value, that still just means the Ben Hassrath completely bungled their part of the operation. 

 

Even putting aside that it's the Chargers, we're left with a scenario where either the Qunari on the ship are going to die, or Inquisition soldiers are going to die.  In both cases, the dreadnaught sinks the smuggling ship before things go to pot, so the mission has already been accomplished, and the Inquisition pulling back is not going to have an effect the outcome, other than deciding whose soldiers are sacrificed.  The agreement has been honored, and I'm not saying that an agreement where you back out at the first sign of hardship is a good one, but if we're going to argue about the Inquisition's responsibility to protect Qunari lives, what about the Qunari's responsibility to protect Inquisition lives.  I suspect Cullen would have told the Qun exactly where to stick it in that sort of situation, too, to be honest.

 

And speaking of backing out at the first sign of hardship, that's exactly what the Qunari do.  The moment that some of their own guys get sacrificed for the sake of working with the Inquisition, they show themselves to be just as much of fair-weather friends.  Granted, that's a hindsight moment that you may or may not be able to justify predicting in character, but the Qun shows itself to be just as unworthy of your trust, honestly.

 

This makes more sense than my 'testing Iron Bull' theory.  Bad intelligence would certainly do the job.  If they dropped the ball, I don't feel any regret for washing my hands of it.  Basically, it came down to, our guys or yours, and then them pulling the alliance?  Hmmm.  Still don't feel right about sacrificing good men for the Qun.  If the situation were reversed, would they do the same?  In chess, you often sacrifice material (pawns, rooks, knights, bishops) in hopes of future gain.  While working with the Qunari does seem to have a huge plus down the line, what happens next?  I remember destroying the cure in Mass Effect 2; rewriting the Geth; killing the rachni; and punching Khalisa.  They didn't really pay off in the end (except punching the reporter, don't say you didn't do it at least once!).  Choosing Harromont seemed like the honorable choice, but I'm betting the casteless (who probably outnumbered the rest by a good number) didn't see it that way.  Allying with the Qunari seems like the practical and pragmatic choice now...but tomorrow?  By sharing intel, they gain an advantage as well.  Also, at no point to they say, 'hey, we are giving up that whole, convert or die' nonsense.  You basically handed them a whole lotta intel on specific personnel in Ferelden, Orlais, and the Free Marches.  Remember that list you may (or may not) have let Tallis keep?  Well, it's very possible that the Qun stole the Inquisition's NOC list.  They'll know your troop movements, schedules, and size.  They'll know which nobles you lean on, and who your spies contacts are.  Leliana will do her best to keep that from getting too bad, but when you open the door, you can't complain about what runs out into the street.  

 

OF COURSE, I'm probably overthinking this...way too much.  So take what I say with a grain of salt...no, no, NO...put the bag away, I said a GRAIN...sheesh...

[Medhia_Nox]

Poor Decision Making Rob Lowe says yes!