287 réponses à ce sujet

[SgtSteel91]

I gotta wonder how the Chantry and common people see the Inquisition, an Andrastian organization, ally with the Qunari, who have tried to invade Thedas and had an Exalted March called on them. I have to imagine it'd be bad for PR.

[andy6915]

I gotta wonder how the Chantry and common people see the Inquisition, an Andrastian organization, ally with the Qunari, who have tried to invade Thedas and had an Exalted March called on them. I have to imagine it'd be bad for PR.

 

This assumes the common people have detailed knowledge of every single treaty and agreement the Inquisition has. It's likely a not-entirely-public alliance.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I imagine they care more about the Inquisitions actions closer to home.

[Simfam]

Well... if we're gonna look at it "pragmatically" you would think that making the alliance is a no-brainer. At the cost of a merry band of misfits you've won yourself a network of spies that might even rival Orlais'.

 

However, I don't really see it that way. An "alliance" will always be something that can be broken and it's shifty at best. Besides, you're making an agreement with an unknown force that you have no knowledge of whatsoever. This isn't a mutual agreement, you're basically allowing the Qunari access to your Inquisition; there's no give-and-take, you saved a Dreadnought and they can now feed false information to a growing organisation that might one day be a force to reckon with when the Qun decide to invade.

 

Remember that spies are a different kind of monster. Information is key to any operation and depending on a network not under your direct command is detrimental to your efforts as the Inquisitor. You might potentially open the gate for Qunari invasion somewhere near the future.

 

It's far more prudent as a leader to develop your own network of spies and make them competent and strong. If the Qunari offer was troops, that's a different matter. But spies?

 

No way Jose.

 

Their general value is dwarfed when compared to the Qunari offer, but when it comes to a strong foundation you should always have loyal men at your side rather than shaky dealings with Unknowns that involve many factors, few which are desirable.

[TammieAZ]

Yes...

R.I.P.  Chargers.

[Gold Dragon]

No...

 

Death to the QUN! DEATH!!

[PrimerTrouble87]

I concur.
 
Dialogue if you save the dreadnought:

Spoiler

• Cole: Blood, crash of metal, but silent underneath - the horn didn't blow! That one-eyed bastard, I knew he'd betray us!
• Iron Bull: Oh good, you're doing your thing again.
• Cole: They died fighting. In your mind, they hated you, but you're doing it wrong! That isn't what Krem thought!
• Iron Bull: Well, then... what did he think?
• Cole: "Horns pointing up."
• Iron Bull: Oh... yeah.
• Cole: No, that didn't help - I tugged on the tangle and tore it--
• Iron Bull: It's all right. I'm good.

 
Nope

I wished I'd brung Cole with me on my dalish archer play through because this party banter is really hilarious.

[Dai Grepher]

It's also entirely possible that, if you didn't form the alliance, the Ben-Hassrath simply took care of the Venatori fire ship on their own. We learn from the war table missions that the Ben-Hassrath investigating didn't really need our help on the matter, and the Inquisitor's role was mostly either smoothing over details with the Ferelden authorities (or not at all) and simply suggesting courses of action. Token leadership at best since the Ben-Hassrath are already trained to deal with these things quickly and privately.

The Qunari wouldn't have felt the need to report back to the Inquisition, the group that turned down their offer of an alliance, that they took down a Venatori plot, and Ferelden wouldn't either if they didn't really know the full extent of the matter at hand with the exploding ship on their river.

 

I looked into this and actually... it is possible, but it's uncertain if they would make the right choices or not.

 

Basically, it's broken down into 3 parts: Failed Assassination Attempt Inquiry, Follow Venatori Assassins, and Stop Venatori Fire Ship. It also comes down to what the Qunari would do if left on their own.

 

So first lets see about the inquiry. The best option is to have Josephine get official sanction from the crown, but obviously the Qunari would not have this option. So the remaining options are to investigate secretly (Leliana), or investigate openly (Cullen). Both result in confrontations with Ferelden authorities, and time is wasted. More time is wasted in Cullen's case, though the report doesn't reflect this. So would the Qunari investigate openly or secretly? If it's Tallis, I would guess secretly. So this is a point in favor of the Qunari. But if the Qunari investigate openly, the mission is doomed for them (though not for an Inquisitor).

 

Next is the following. They discover documents that prove the Venatori are going to South Reach. Josephine's method of getting a ship to a place near Gwaren isn't based on arrangements with nobility, so this option is open to the Qunari. Leliana's method is to cut through the Brecilian Forest to save time and conceal movements. This is risky, but it works if you choose it. Would it work the same way for the Qunari? Maybe not. Perhaps they would not even consider it, since it is unknown territory. Cullen's option is to stay in South Reach long enough to kill any remaining Venatori so they can't warn their associates. The ship toward Gwaren only succeeds if Josephine's option was chosen in the first part. Otherwise it results in the Venatori burning the shipping station. Leliana's method succeeds, but this might be due to her own experience with that area from Origins. Cullen's option also works, and I think the Qunari might be more likely to choose his option.

 

The last part is the fire ship. Josephine warns Ferelden and has the local banns get their own ships into place. Leliana attempts to get her own people on to the fire ship. Neither of these options would be available to the Qunari. Also, Leliana's method always fails and results in Denerim being damaged. Josephine's will work if the previous two choices were correct. But in any case, it's up to Cullen's method, which is to have the Qunari dreadnaught take care of the fire ship.

 

So it all comes down to what Tallis and any others with her would do. Would they investigate secretly or in the open? Would they kill the Venatori in South Reach, or not? How would they get to Gwaren, by ship, by road, by forest? Then how would they get back to Denerim in time? Or how would they send word to the dreadnaught?

 

These are all factors in whether the fire ship would be stopped or not. On the one hand, I could see the secret investigation and confrontation holding them up somewhat, then I could see them killing the Venatori in South Reach. But what about how they get to Gwaren? I could see them trying a ship, or taking the road. Either of these could end in failure to preserve the shipping office. The forest is proven to be the best way, but without Leliana's suggestion, I don't see the Qunari attempting that option. The ship won't get them to Gwaren in time if they were held up in Denerim, so I can see this always ending in failure. And if they investigate openly, then based on Qunari actions, the mission is doomed from that point.

 

Here's what we have. The Qunari cannot get sanction for the inquiry. So it's (L or C) for mission 1. They aren't at all likely to cut through the forest in mission 2, so for that it's either (J or C) and J fails without the J in mission 1. Then for mission 3 the Qunari cannot use J, nor can they get back in time themselves to board the ship, so it is only ( C ).

 

1: (L,C)

2: (J,C)

3: ( C )

 

All possible combinations for the Qunari: (L,J,C) ; (L,C,C) ; (C,J,C) ; (C,C,C)

 

Anything here starting with C ends in failure. That puts them at 50% chance of failure. This leaves us with only two possible options, (L,J,C) and (L,C,C).

 

The ship toward Gwaren only succeeds if Josephine got sanction for the investigation, so (L,J,C) ends in failure. Thus, the Qunari's chance of success is 25%.

 

The winning choices are secret inquiry, kill the Venatori in South Reach, and then get word to the dreadnaught. Fortunately, this does seem to be the kind of path Tallis would choose, but that's assuming it's up to her and not someone else. Also assuming that they took the road to Gwaren and weren't spotted. Also assuming they had enough time to get word to the dreadnaught to get in position.

 

And this is also assuming I'm even right about Tallis and what she would do. She indicates in her letter than she would have sent word ahead to another Ben-Hassrath unit, which is the right choice. She also seems the type to inquire about the assassin secretly. But once caught in a confrontation, then what? How does she explain her way out of it? Does she merely reassure the guards that they have a common enemy? Or did she mention the alliance with the Inquisition to help smooth things over? In South Reach, did they bother killing the Venatori there, or did they set out immediately? Did they take the road or a ship? Were they able to get word to the dreadnaught in time?

 

These are all unknown variables, and any deviance from this 25% chance of success only makes it that much more likely to fail.

 

So yes, it's possible they stop the Venatori fire ship without the alliance with the Inquisition, but it's only a very small chance that they do, and there is no way to confirm it one way or the other.

[Dai Grepher]

It's not Bull's choice if you look at it like a gameplay sequence, but in this scenario, Bull is fully capable of making his own decisions. His indecision is irrelevant. If the Inquisitor's choice is considered a failing, then it is as much Bull's failing as it is his/hers. Consider that the stakes here are stacked well against Bull and not the other. Bull is risking far more than the Inquisitor is, because between the two, only one of them is facing a crossroad when it comes to their role in their respective societies. Regardless of the outcome, the Inquisitor is still the leader of a powerful organization, whereas Bull will become a pariah among his people. It's not like it's a gamble. He knows the consequences. There isn't a chance that it works out well if he defies Gat. If he can't make up his mind, that's his fault. His lack of resolve to see that the demands of the Qun are met regardless of what some bas says is his own doing and no one else's.

 

Yeah but even the Inquisitor can tell Bull back at Skyhold that he gave him the order. Bull will then ask to "let him have this one". But regardless, the Inquisitor also made a choice and that dialogue proves it.

 

I don't consider either choice a failing really.

 

Bull faces no crossroad. He faces a possible exit. If he chooses not to take that exit, there will be other possible exits further down the road.

[KCMeredith]

I never save the Chargers, we're at war and a few men and women (no matter how much you like them) aren't worth refusing the Qunari support.

[Dai Grepher]

 

The Qunari also insisted that you solve the problem their way, and its their bad intelligence that puts the Inquisition's men in danger.  If things went the way you were told they were "supposed to" go, and the Chargers still couldn't handle it, that would be one thing.  But assuming, as you are, that everything taking place is true at face value, that still just means the Ben Hassrath completely bungled their part of the operation. 

 

Even putting aside that it's the Chargers, we're left with a scenario where either the Qunari on the ship are going to die, or Inquisition soldiers are going to die.  In both cases, the dreadnaught sinks the smuggling ship before things go to pot, so the mission has already been accomplished, and the Inquisition pulling back is not going to have an effect the outcome, other than deciding whose soldiers are sacrificed.  The agreement has been honored, and I'm not saying that an agreement where you back out at the first sign of hardship is a good one, but if we're going to argue about the Inquisition's responsibility to protect Qunari lives, what about the Qunari's responsibility to protect Inquisition lives.  I suspect Cullen would have told the Qun exactly where to stick it in that sort of situation, too, to be honest.

 

And speaking of backing out at the first sign of hardship, that's exactly what the Qunari do.  The moment that some of their own guys get sacrificed for the sake of working with the Inquisition, they show themselves to be just as much of fair-weather friends.  Granted, that's a hindsight moment that you may or may not be able to justify predicting in character, but the Qun shows itself to be just as unworthy of your trust, honestly.

 

I don't see how. The mission was to take each hill and then hold them until the dreadnaught could do its job and then leave. The Chargers were given the easier hill to take by none other than The Iron Bull. If the Chargers had been stronger they'd still be alive.

 

But your job is to ensure the dreadnaught's safety until it can get out of range. Abandoning your position to the enemy is not only against the mission, but it's also cowardly.

 

The Qunari had no such responsibility during that mission. Theirs was only to destroy the Venatori ship and then move out.

 

The Qunari had made no alliance with you yet. The mission is what proves to them if the Inquisition is worthy of an alliance. Calling for a retreat from your position shows disloyalty and cowardice. And in all fairness, the Chargers were mercs. They were paid for what they died doing.

 

Who split the Chargers up as he did? Who assigned them that particular hill? Not the Qunari.

[Darkstarr11]

I looked into this and actually... it is possible, but it's uncertain if they would make the right choices or not.

 

Basically, it's broken down into 3 parts: Failed Assassination Attempt Inquiry, Follow Venatori Assassins, and Stop Venatori Fire Ship. It also comes down to what the Qunari would do if left on their own.

 

So first lets see about the inquiry. The best option is to have Josephine get official sanction from the crown, but obviously the Qunari would not have this option. So the remaining options are to investigate secretly (Leliana), or investigate openly (Cullen). Both result in confrontations with Ferelden authorities, and time is wasted. More time is wasted in Cullen's case, though the report doesn't reflect this. So would the Qunari investigate openly or secretly? If it's Tallis, I would guess secretly. So this is a point in favor of the Qunari. But if the Qunari investigate openly, the mission is doomed for them (though not for an Inquisitor).

 

Next is the following. They discover documents that prove the Venatori are going to South Reach. Josephine's method of getting a ship to a place near Gwaren isn't based on arrangements with nobility, so this option is open to the Qunari. Leliana's method is to cut through the Brecilian Forest to save time and conceal movements. This is risky, but it works if you choose it. Would it work the same way for the Qunari? Maybe not. Perhaps they would not even consider it, since it is unknown territory. Cullen's option is to stay in South Reach long enough to kill any remaining Venatori so they can't warn their associates. The ship toward Gwaren only succeeds if Josephine's option was chosen in the first part. Otherwise it results in the Venatori burning the shipping station. Leliana's method succeeds, but this might be due to her own experience with that area from Origins. Cullen's option also works, and I think the Qunari might be more likely to choose his option.

 

The last part is the fire ship. Josephine warns Ferelden and has the local banns get their own ships into place. Leliana attempts to get her own people on to the fire ship. Neither of these options would be available to the Qunari. Also, Leliana's method always fails and results in Denerim being damaged. Josephine's will work if the previous two choices were correct. But in any case, it's up to Cullen's method, which is to have the Qunari dreadnaught take care of the fire ship.

 

So it all comes down to what Tallis and any others with her would do. Would they investigate secretly or in the open? Would they kill the Venatori in South Reach, or not? How would they get to Gwaren, by ship, by road, by forest? Then how would they get back to Denerim in time? Or how would they send word to the dreadnaught?

 

These are all factors in whether the fire ship would be stopped or not. On the one hand, I could see the secret investigation and confrontation holding them up somewhat, then I could see them killing the Venatori in South Reach. But what about how they get to Gwaren? I could see them trying a ship, or taking the road. Either of these could end in failure to preserve the shipping office. The forest is proven to be the best way, but without Leliana's suggestion, I don't see the Qunari attempting that option. The ship won't get them to Gwaren in time if they were held up in Denerim, so I can see this always ending in failure. And if they investigate openly, then based on Qunari actions, the mission is doomed from that point.

 

Here's what we have. The Qunari cannot get sanction for the inquiry. So it's (L or C) for mission 1. They aren't at all likely to cut through the forest in mission 2, so for that it's either (J or C) and J fails without the J in mission 1. Then for mission 3 the Qunari cannot use J, nor can they get back in time themselves to board the ship, so it is only ©.

 

1: (L,C)

2: (J,C)

3: ( C )

 

All possible combinations for the Qunari: (L,J,C) ; (L,C,C) ; (C,J,C) ; (C,C,C)

 

Anything here starting with C ends in failure. That puts them at 50% chance of failure. This leaves us with only two possible options, (L,J,C) and (L,C,C).

 

The ship toward Gwaren only succeeds if Josephine got sanction for the investigation, so (L,J,C) ends in failure. Thus, the Qunari's chance of success is 25%.

 

The winning choices are secret inquiry, kill the Venatori in South Reach, and then get word to the dreadnaught. Fortunately, this does seem to be the kind of path Tallis would choose, but that's assuming it's up to her and not someone else. Also assuming that they took the road to Gwaren and weren't spotted. Also assuming they had enough time to get word to the dreadnaught to get in position.

 

And this is also assuming I'm even right about Tallis and what she would do. She indicates in her letter than she would have sent word ahead to another Ben-Hassrath unit, which is the right choice. She also seems the type to inquire about the assassin secretly. But once caught in a confrontation, then what? How does she explain her way out of it? Does she merely reassure the guards that they have a common enemy? Or did she mention the alliance with the Inquisition to help smooth things over? In South Reach, did they bother killing the Venatori there, or did they set out immediately? Did they take the road or a ship? Were they able to get word to the dreadnaught in time?

 

These are all unknown variables, and any deviance from this 25% chance of success only makes it that much more likely to fail.

 

So yes, it's possible they stop the Venatori fire ship without the alliance with the Inquisition, but it's only a very small chance that they do, and there is no way to confirm it one way or the other.

 

That was a WHOLE lotta work.  Thanks for breaking it down.  Makes it a lot clearer as well.  Awesome.

 

I don't see how. The mission was to take each hill and then hold them until the dreadnaught could do its job and then leave. The Chargers were given the easier hill to take by none other than The Iron Bull. If the Chargers had been stronger they'd still be alive.

 

But your job is to ensure the dreadnaught's safety until it can get out of range. Abandoning your position to the enemy is not only against the mission, but it's also cowardly.

 

The Qunari had no such responsibility during that mission. Theirs was only to destroy the Venatori ship and then move out.

 

The Qunari had made no alliance with you yet. The mission is what proves to them if the Inquisition is worthy of an alliance. Calling for a retreat from your position shows disloyalty and cowardice. And in all fairness, the Chargers were mercs. They were paid for what they died doing.

 

Who split the Chargers up as he did? Who assigned them that particular hill? Not the Qunari.

 

The more I've read here, the less I find my 'secret test of character' theory credible.  You're right, it doesn't hold up.  Bad intelligence does though.  Honestly, you can fault both the Inquisition and Iron Bull for trusting the Qunari intelligence.  Not involving the Blades (if they were recruited) was a BIG mistake.  As the Blades live on the coast, they could have easily scouted the location and provided back up.  They probably HAD the information already, if they had been asked.  Crestwood isn't CLOSE close, but Charter could have provided back up if they weren't around.  Or Harding and her scouts.  OR, why didn't the Inquisitor just jog over and butcher them?  There was no point in staying on that hill.  The Chargers couldn't retreat, but if the Inquisitor had come from behind and flanked them, it would have been over fast.  

 

As to the alliance, still something feels off.  Considering the real life situations that mirror it (Russia in Afghanistan come to mind), working with the Qunari seems like a 'make your own villain' scenario.  Bull himself seems uncomfortable with them being closer.  I also factor in their ways they use to convert, and giving them access to Inquisition intel seems frightening.  While it can be argued (successfully I might add, by Dai Grepher) that it is a tactically sound idea which does bolster the Inquisition through a solid alliance with a foreign power...I see that you've given them a foothold into Orlais and Ferelden.  If Bull reaffirms his allegiance to the Qun, you've also given the Qunari direct access to the Divine and the most powerful political leaders in Thedas.  A WEAKENED Thedas, by the way.  With the exception of the Inquisition, pretty much every other major power is damaged by the end of DAI.  So, the Qunari have access to the Emperor or Empress, the Divine, the leader of the Inquisition, the King or Queen of Ferelden, and the Grey Wardens.  While you may have their respect, they are a major power that believes that all life outside the Qun is chaotic and dangerous.  The only way for the world to be right is to be under the Qun.  While in the short, sacrificing the Chargers might work out of the Inquisition, forging an alliance with the Qunari might backfire in the long game by providing detailed intelligence as to the rest of Thedas.  Especially when their original intent was to spy on the Inquisition instead of Bull's plan of being up front.  THAT right there says a lot.  While I might understand that a spy works in secret, and I may have my own do the same, at no point am I going to trust an organization that attempted to infiltrate my own.  Especially when their offer of an alliance blows up after one mission.  Tactically, they need to understand that no matter what the situation is, sometimes things go bad.  This isn't out of character for them though.  They treated this like an order.  YOU are not an equal in this, you are a subordinate.  

 

Of course, you AGREED to it, which doesn't make it much better...so, basically, my take on this (and my position has changed thanks to decent arguments by others here so it may again if I see a better prepared, more well thought out position) is that agreeing to THEIR terms was idiotic.  It got the Chargers possibly killed or tanked an alliance.  HOWEVER, an alliance is an incredibly risky concept that does NOT benefit the Inquisition or Thedas at all due to them embedding their spies with you, while Scheron and the Qun sit a good ways away building up their forces and gathering intel while you learn very little about them.  This is Cerberus setting up Shepard, IMO.  It accomplishes the goal, but you do the legwork, they reap the rewards.  

 

Remember, if you turn on them...they sneak a few men in, who get KILLED as a way of telling Bull he's out.  They sacrificed two guys (or more), just to remind him he's out.  They WILL sacrifice if necessary.  If Bull rejoins the Qunari, do we actually know how many agents are IN Skyhold?

[andy6915]

That was a WHOLE lotta work.  Thanks for breaking it down.  Makes it a lot clearer as well.  Awesome.

 

 

The more I've read here, the less I find my 'secret test of character' theory credible.  You're right, it doesn't hold up.  Bad intelligence does though.  Honestly, you can fault both the Inquisition and Iron Bull for trusting the Qunari intelligence.  Not involving the Blades (if they were recruited) was a BIG mistake.  As the Blades live on the coast, they could have easily scouted the location and provided back up.  They probably HAD the information already, if they had been asked.  Crestwood isn't CLOSE close, but Charter could have provided back up if they weren't around.  Or Harding and her scouts.  OR, why didn't the Inquisitor just jog over and butcher them?  There was no point in staying on that hill.  The Chargers couldn't retreat, but if the Inquisitor had come from behind and flanked them, it would have been over fast.  

 

As to the alliance, still something feels off.  Considering the real life situations that mirror it (Russia in Afghanistan come to mind), working with the Qunari seems like a 'make your own villain' scenario.  Bull himself seems uncomfortable with them being closer.  I also factor in their ways they use to convert, and giving them access to Inquisition intel seems frightening.  While it can be argued (successfully I might add, by Dai Grepher) that it is a tactically sound idea which does bolster the Inquisition through a solid alliance with a foreign power...I see that you've given them a foothold into Orlais and Ferelden.  If Bull reaffirms his allegiance to the Qun, you've also given the Qunari direct access to the Divine and the most powerful political leaders in Thedas.  A WEAKENED Thedas, by the way.  With the exception of the Inquisition, pretty much every other major power is damaged by the end of DAI.  So, the Qunari have access to the Emperor or Empress, the Divine, the leader of the Inquisition, the King or Queen of Ferelden, and the Grey Wardens.  While you may have their respect, they are a major power that believes that all life outside the Qun is chaotic and dangerous.  The only way for the world to be right is to be under the Qun.  While in the short, sacrificing the Chargers might work out of the Inquisition, forging an alliance with the Qunari might backfire in the long game by providing detailed intelligence as to the rest of Thedas.  Especially when their original intent was to spy on the Inquisition instead of Bull's plan of being up front.  THAT right there says a lot.  While I might understand that a spy works in secret, and I may have my own do the same, at no point am I going to trust an organization that attempted to infiltrate my own.  Especially when their offer of an alliance blows up after one mission.  Tactically, they need to understand that no matter what the situation is, sometimes things go bad.  This isn't out of character for them though.  They treated this like an order.  YOU are not an equal in this, you are a subordinate.  

 

Of course, you AGREED to it, which doesn't make it much better...so, basically, my take on this (and my position has changed thanks to decent arguments by others here so it may again if I see a better prepared, more well thought out position) is that agreeing to THEIR terms was idiotic.  It got the Chargers possibly killed or tanked an alliance.  HOWEVER, an alliance is an incredibly risky concept that does NOT benefit the Inquisition or Thedas at all due to them embedding their spies with you, while Scheron and the Qun sit a good ways away building up their forces and gathering intel while you learn very little about them.  This is Cerberus setting up Shepard, IMO.  It accomplishes the goal, but you do the legwork, they reap the rewards.  

 

Remember, if you turn on them...they sneak a few men in, who get KILLED as a way of telling Bull he's out.  They sacrificed two guys (or more), just to remind him he's out.  They WILL sacrifice if necessary.  If Bull rejoins the Qunari, do we actually know how many agents are IN Skyhold?

 

I can't help but wonder why everyone assumes the alliance means that your going to be swimming in intelligence leaks. I don't recall the terms of the deal with the actual qunari (not Bull) being to trade intel, it was more just "help us with this dreadnaught mission and we help you with everything else". And even if the terms was an info swap, we could just send false reports. And if that happens, they'll have quite a booger on their face when they try to act on false info. Only way they could get your info in that case is through spies secretively looking through all your reports... And they can do that just as easily without the alliance, so the risk of that is no greater with the alliance than without. If they're going to be looking through your reports without your knowledge, the alliance doesn't matter either way for intel and their ability to get it. If anything the alliance might make it easier to fool them, because then they might at least accept what they get as genuine and not bother with the secret report readings... Whereas without , they really have no reason at all to not at least try the spy route.

 

Basically, we can lie. And if the lies won't work, the way they won't work means that the alliance with you won't give them any advantage they wouldn't have had anyway. And if you think no alliance=no spies, well... The qunari spies who attempt an assassination of Bull after being declared tal-vashoth were wearing Inquisition gear. So right there is proof that they imbed your organization with spies even without the alliance. So again, they really don't have an advantage from the alliance that they don't already have without it.

[Darkstarr11]

I can't help but wonder why everyone assumes the alliance means that your going to be swimming in intelligence leaks. I don't recall the terms of the deal with the actual qunari (not Bull) being to trade intel, it was more just "help us with this dreadnaught mission and we help you with everything else". And even if the terms was an info swap, we could just send false reports. And if that happens, they'll have quite a booger on their face when they try to act on false info. Only way they could get your info in that case is through spies secretively looking through all your reports... And they can do that just as easily without the alliance, so the risk of that is no greater with the alliance than without. If they're going to be looking through your reports without your knowledge, the alliance doesn't matter either way for intel and their ability to get it. If anything the alliance might make it easier to fool them, because then they might at least accept what they get as genuine and not bother with the secret report readings... Whereas without , they really have no reason at all to not at least try the spy route.

 

Basically, we can lie. And if the lies won't work, the way they won't work means that the alliance with you won't give them any advantage they wouldn't have had anyway. And if you think no alliance=no spies, well... The qunari spies who attempt an assassination of Bull after being declared tal-vashoth were wearing Inquisition gear. So right there is proof that they imbed your organization with spies even without the alliance. So again, they really don't have an advantage from the alliance that they don't already have without it.

 

I'm paranoid.    If I made sense, people would worry...

[andy6915]

If I made sense, people would worry...

 

Sera says basically the same thing at one point if you tell her that something she said didn't sound totally crazy. I forget exactly what she says, but it was basically her saying that her starting to make sense with the things she says was something everyone should be worried about.

[Darkstarr11]

Sera says basically the same thing at one point if you tell her that something she said didn't sound totally crazy. I forget exactly what she says, but it was basically her saying that her starting to make sense with the things she says was something everyone should be worried about.

 

That's the idea.

 

 I believe (personal opinion) that if you have intel, most likely so does pretty much everyone else.  I think we've seen enough in the news to know that leaks happen, usually at the worst times.  If you know it, your enemy (and allies) know it.  You make a fair point about them probably already having access.  How deep into the Inquisition is the question.  Makes me wonder WHY they wanted the alliance in the first place.  No one just OFFERS something unless they get something in return...well, governments anyway.  I'm still thinking there is a much bigger game going on here, but you made a good point.  At worst, you're screwed, but at best you have a chance to steer the narrative in a better perspective for your own agents.  Is it worth sacrificing your own for that?  I can see Cullen, or Leliana (hardened) recommending it, but if your Inquisition is diplomatic, maybe not.  MAYBE.  Unhardened Leliana wouldn't go that route.  As I played most of my Inquisitors very much someone who was 'for the people', it would be hard to sacrifice the Chargers and rationalize it.  A more pragmatic Inquisitor, or a heavily military minded one would though.  Someone who claims to be the Herald of Andraste...I don't see that working.  An Andrastian who claims to be the Herald couldn't make that call while continuing to make that claim.  Now, someone who denied it, that would be a different story...

 

And I think that's about where my brain goes to complete mush...

[Heimdall]

Considering my Inqusitor told Leliana that our people are not expendable, I'd feel pretty hypocritical if I let the Chargers die.

[SolNebula]

Sure you sacrifice a bunch of mercs (aka paid thugs) to get the full support of the Qun. Strategically makes sense. I follow strategy not heart. To those telling we do not sacrifice our people. The chargers aren't OUR people....they aren't Inquisition soldiers but just paid mercs. They are expendable.

[Urzon]

Sure you sacrifice a bunch of mercs (aka paid thugs) to get the full support of the Qun. Strategically makes sense. I follow strategy not heart. To those telling we do not sacrifice our people. The chargers aren't OUR people....they aren't Inquisition soldiers but just paid mercs. They are expendable.

Here's the tiff though. What does the "full support of the Qun" actually entail at the end of the day? They don't give you any troops or resources really. They tip you off about the Venatori plot, but by in large that is handled by their own people with the Inquisitor acting simply as a de-facto manager and support.

The alliance doesn't seem to have any sort of lasting, large, or meaningful impact all.

[SolNebula]

The alliance doesn't seem to have any sort of lasting, large, or meaningful impact all.

 

Cough..cough....Denerim....

 

http://dragonage.wik...atori_Fire_Ship

[Urzon]

Cough..cough....Denerim....
 
http://dragonage.wik...atori_Fire_Ship

That event only has a chance of happening if you make the alliance.

As stated earlier, either that event simply doesn't happen at all if you save the Chargers or the Ben-Hassrath deal with the plot on their own using their own methods. Either way, the possibility of Denerim burning (and it then being saved) can't be used as a mark in favor for the alliance, because it's just as safe without. If anything, it would almost be considered a strike against the idea of the alliance, since the Inquisitor then has a chance of botching up the countermeasures to foil the plot and Denerim has a chance of burning.

[Medhia_Nox]

If you want to be used by the Qunari - go for the Alliance. 

 

Demands of the Qun itself asks everything of the Inquisition and nothing of the Qunari... that's no alliance I want to be part of.  

 

And the Qunari have SUCH a great track record of honoring alliances that no longer suit their needs.  "Full support of the Qun..." that's delusional at best.  

[myahele]

I chose the Chargers and Denerim never burned down

[andy6915]

Makes me wonder WHY they wanted the alliance in the first place.  No one just OFFERS something unless they get something in return

 

That's easy, we're a useful attack dog. They supply info they know we'll jump on, and watch us do their work for them. They can handle things they want handled without needing to risk anything of their own because they know the Inquisition will do so for them as long as it has anything to do with the Venatori or Corypheus or red lyrium, they can just tell us and sit back and watch as we take care of it for them. It's actually not to different from how the Council used Shepard in the first Mass Effect.

 

Not making the qunari look good in that last paragraph, but that wasn't my intention anyway. My point is that going with the temporary alliance isn't as certain to bite you in the ass as some in here believe. I'm on my first playthrough now, and my vashoth mage didn't even need to stop to consider who was worth more between the Chargers and the qunari who's alliance she barely trusted and who would happily kill her tal-vashoth parents. So I'm not defending the qun, I'm just being a devil's advocate in saying that they do have reason to reach out besides seeding your organization with spies (which they can do either way) and that there is some benefit to it.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I gotta wonder how the Chantry and common people see the Inquisition, an Andrastian organization, ally with the Qunari, who have tried to invade Thedas and had an Exalted March called on them. I have to imagine it'd be bad for PR.

 

Well so would the Inquisition marching into Redcliffe after the mages utterly embarass themselves there and saying "Yup, we're with these guys!" but that has not always stopped people from doing it.