287 réponses à ce sujet

[teh DRUMPf!!]

And the Qunari have SUCH a great track record of honoring alliances that no longer suit their needs.  "Full support of the Qun..." that's delusional at best.  

 

Actually, the Qunari have never allied with anyone outside Qunadar before this quest.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Considering my Inqusitor told Leliana that our people are not expendable, I'd feel pretty hypocritical if I let the Chargers die.

 

Your first problem was telling Leliana your people are not expendable.

 

If you threw Inquisition soldiers/agents at War Table objectives where they risked their lives (never mind any of them dying and the Inquisitor not losing a wink of sleep over it), that is hypocrisy enough.

[Dai Grepher]

That was a WHOLE lotta work.  Thanks for breaking it down.  Makes it a lot clearer as well.  Awesome.

 

The more I've read here, the less I find my 'secret test of character' theory credible.  You're right, it doesn't hold up.  Bad intelligence does though.  Honestly, you can fault both the Inquisition and Iron Bull for trusting the Qunari intelligence.  Not involving the Blades (if they were recruited) was a BIG mistake.  As the Blades live on the coast, they could have easily scouted the location and provided back up.  They probably HAD the information already, if they had been asked.  Crestwood isn't CLOSE close, but Charter could have provided back up if they weren't around.  Or Harding and her scouts.  OR, why didn't the Inquisitor just jog over and butcher them?  There was no point in staying on that hill.  The Chargers couldn't retreat, but if the Inquisitor had come from behind and flanked them, it would have been over fast.  

 

As to the alliance, still something feels off.  Considering the real life situations that mirror it (Russia in Afghanistan come to mind), working with the Qunari seems like a 'make your own villain' scenario.  Bull himself seems uncomfortable with them being closer.  I also factor in their ways they use to convert, and giving them access to Inquisition intel seems frightening.  While it can be argued (successfully I might add, by Dai Grepher) that it is a tactically sound idea which does bolster the Inquisition through a solid alliance with a foreign power...I see that you've given them a foothold into Orlais and Ferelden.  If Bull reaffirms his allegiance to the Qun, you've also given the Qunari direct access to the Divine and the most powerful political leaders in Thedas.  A WEAKENED Thedas, by the way.  With the exception of the Inquisition, pretty much every other major power is damaged by the end of DAI.  So, the Qunari have access to the Emperor or Empress, the Divine, the leader of the Inquisition, the King or Queen of Ferelden, and the Grey Wardens.  While you may have their respect, they are a major power that believes that all life outside the Qun is chaotic and dangerous.  The only way for the world to be right is to be under the Qun.  While in the short, sacrificing the Chargers might work out of the Inquisition, forging an alliance with the Qunari might backfire in the long game by providing detailed intelligence as to the rest of Thedas.  Especially when their original intent was to spy on the Inquisition instead of Bull's plan of being up front.  THAT right there says a lot.  While I might understand that a spy works in secret, and I may have my own do the same, at no point am I going to trust an organization that attempted to infiltrate my own.  Especially when their offer of an alliance blows up after one mission.  Tactically, they need to understand that no matter what the situation is, sometimes things go bad.  This isn't out of character for them though.  They treated this like an order.  YOU are not an equal in this, you are a subordinate.  

 

Of course, you AGREED to it, which doesn't make it much better...so, basically, my take on this (and my position has changed thanks to decent arguments by others here so it may again if I see a better prepared, more well thought out position) is that agreeing to THEIR terms was idiotic.  It got the Chargers possibly killed or tanked an alliance.  HOWEVER, an alliance is an incredibly risky concept that does NOT benefit the Inquisition or Thedas at all due to them embedding their spies with you, while Scheron and the Qun sit a good ways away building up their forces and gathering intel while you learn very little about them.  This is Cerberus setting up Shepard, IMO.  It accomplishes the goal, but you do the legwork, they reap the rewards.  

 

Remember, if you turn on them...they sneak a few men in, who get KILLED as a way of telling Bull he's out.  They sacrificed two guys (or more), just to remind him he's out.  They WILL sacrifice if necessary.  If Bull rejoins the Qunari, do we actually know how many agents are IN Skyhold?

 

Thanks.

 

I do agree that the plan was bad and the Qunari should feel bad. The intel underestimated the enemy forces, and it did not allow the Inquisition to have any input or add to the plan's success. But, the fact is that if you go to the Storm Coast for that mission, then you are agreeing to those terms and that situation. I just wish there had been a way to disagree with the plan and tell Gatt the mission was off.
 

As for staying on their hill, that's because they were tasked with defending that point. Had the Inquisitor left his position, then more Venatori may have advanced from that side and attacked the dreadnaught. Granted, we don't see them, but it's possible they were there waiting and hoping the Inquisitor would leave his position. But I agree that once the dreadnaught is out of range, the Inquisitor and company should rush over to the other hill and avenge the Chargers.

 

I agree that the Qunari are treating you as a tool. I agree they tried to infiltrate you. But the thing is, an Inquisition that understands this has little to worry about. You know the Qunari can end the alliance any time they want (as can the Inquisition), you know the Qunari want to dominate the world, and you know they probably have spies inside the Inquisition regardless. This is the first step in countering them however, making them think they have some control over you. As for what the alliance entails, I don't think anything was ever said about the Inquisition giving info to the Qunari. Just that the Qunari would give the Inquisition info about various situations that are of concern to southern Thedas. Gatt also says that men and supplies won't do you much good, but you would have access to Qunari ships. This is an acceptable deal, I think. The Inquisition gets info and ships, and the Qunari get an effective Inquisitor who can take care of mutual interests, such as crushing the Venatori spy network that exists in the Inquisition, Orlais, Nevarra, and Tevinter. But I don't think the Inquisition is expected to provide sensitive intel on Celene or Anora or any other noble. But the Inquisition might be able to approach them with problems that only the Qunari can deal with.

 

As for The Iron Bull's proximity to the new Divine, my Divine is Vivienne, and The Iron Bull is afraid of her. Ha ha. Besides, he'll leave eventually, and so will she.

 

I can see your point, which is why I think there's no wrong answer here.

 

It isn't that they didn't care about those assassins, it's that the Qun obligated them to kill a tal-vashoth. They sent them hoping they would succeed in their mission. But once they fail, the Qunari figure more lives aren't worth it, and as long as they made the attempt, then they fulfilled the demands of the Qun. Also, those assassins probably volunteered for the job anyway.

[Dai Grepher]

Considering my Inqusitor told Leliana that our people are not expendable, I'd feel pretty hypocritical if I let the Chargers die.

 

The difference is that Leliana's alternative was for the scouts to die against impossible odds and perhaps trip the Venatori/Red Templars with their corpses for the small chance that Haven would have a little more time to prepare. The Chargers on the other hand were tasked with protecting lives from being destroyed by Venatori, and the odds they faced were much better, and they went down killing Venatori. The scouts would have been a distraction at best. Calling the scouts back from positions they had no way to defend and for no purpose was the correct decision. Calling the Chargers back from the position they were obligated to defend for the purpose of protecting lives on the dreadnaught was... not the same kind of decision as Leliana's.

[Dai Grepher]

Sure you sacrifice a bunch of mercs (aka paid thugs) to get the full support of the Qun. Strategically makes sense. I follow strategy not heart. To those telling we do not sacrifice our people. The chargers aren't OUR people....they aren't Inquisition soldiers but just paid mercs. They are expendable.

 

As any merc would agree 100%.
 

[Dai Grepher]

Here's the tiff though. What does the "full support of the Qun" actually entail at the end of the day? They don't give you any troops or resources really. They tip you off about the Venatori plot, but by in large that is handled by their own people with the Inquisitor acting simply as a de-facto manager and support.

The alliance doesn't seem to have any sort of lasting, large, or meaningful impact all.

 

The main goal was to help destroy Corypheus, and the Qunari do help you destroy his spy network. So that alone is reason enough for the alliance. But they also offer you info and ships.
 

[Medhia_Nox]

It's not like the Qunari are going to stop fighting the Venatori and the Tevinter without the alliance - I see no reason to bother.  The Venatori want to smuggle red lyrium into Tevinter... the Qunari would stop fighting that at their own risk.  Red lyrium is already a southern problem - so stopping it from getting north is relevant but not a priority.  Even if/when the Tevinter get red lyrium... making it work for them should take some time, then they'll still have the Qunari to deal with... and red lyrium golems seem like they fell easy enough to swords - I'm sure Qunari cannons will be fine.

 

I already have a spy network that works plenty fine thanks - Denerim never burns down in my playthrough - and I don't make alliances with a fanatical group of cause heads who have been very honest about looking to conquer Thedas - and I beat Corypheus.

 

There's more than one way to achieve a goal - for me, the Qunari are not the most optimal way

[Dai Grepher]

As stated earlier, either that event simply doesn't happen at all if you save the Chargers or the Ben-Hassrath deal with the plot on their own using their own methods. Either way, the possibility of Denerim burning (and it then being saved) can't be used as a mark in favor for the alliance, because it's just as safe without. If anything, it would almost be considered a strike against the idea of the alliance, since the Inquisitor then has a chance of botching up the countermeasures to foil the plot and Denerim has a chance of burning.

 

No, because the Qunari might also botch it, IF they even bother to investigate it. The truth is, it is possible that Denerim burns if the alliance does not happen. You can't rule it out.

[Dai Grepher]

If you want to be used by the Qunari - go for the Alliance. 

 

Demands of the Qun itself asks everything of the Inquisition and nothing of the Qunari... that's no alliance I want to be part of.  

 

And the Qunari have SUCH a great track record of honoring alliances that no longer suit their needs.  "Full support of the Qun..." that's delusional at best.  

 

The Qunari supplied the dreadnaught, and put the lives of Qunari on the line.

 

We all know the Qunari can call of the alliance at any time, but so can the Inquisition.
 

[zambingo]

Actually, the Qunari have never allied with anyone outside Qunadar before this quest.

That feels like semantics.

The Warden and Hawke both can develop alliances. Sten only steps out of his cage (which isn't the literal cage) because his mission aligns with the Warden. The Arishok can work with Hawke to such an extent Hawke becames an outsider with weight/wisdom.

[Dai Grepher]

I chose the Chargers and Denerim never burned down

 

Can you prove that for certain?
 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Dai Grepher:  They don't "supply" a Dreadnought... they're using a dreadnought in conjunction.  That's totally different.  And they're VERY willing to bombard your men... but the minute their dreadnought is sunk they cancel the alliance.

 

To me - that's the absolute BEST example of how Qunari view alliances.

 

"You lose your men and we'll stay friends - if we have to sacrifice anything - end of story." 

Yeah - good riddance. 

 

Also - soldiers being expendable should never be such a flippant act as some treat it here.  Yes, sometimes soldiers needs to die - but only the worst possible leaders makes peace with that fact.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

That feels like semantics.

The Warden and Hawke both can develop alliances. Sten only steps out of his cage (which isn't the literal cage) because his mission aligns with the Warden. The Arishok can work with Hawke to such an extent Hawke becames an outsider with weight/wisdom.

 

How does recruiting the Warden recuiting one Qunari soldier or Hawke working with a group of their refugees equate to an alliance between nations?

 

Not semantics at all.

[Dai Grepher]

I already have a spy network that works plenty fine thanks

 

Then why doesn't Leliana catch the Venatori network in Skyhold and elsewhere?
 

[Dai Grepher]

@Dai Grepher:  They don't "supply" a Dreadnought... they're using a dreadnought in conjunction.  That's totally different.  And they're VERY willing to bombard your men... but the minute their dreadnought is sunk they cancel the alliance.

 

To me - that's the absolute BEST example of how Qunari view alliances.

 

"You lose your men and we'll stay friends - if we have to sacrifice anything - end of story." 

Yeah - good riddance. 

 

Also - soldiers being expendable should never be such a flippant act as some treat it here.  Yes, sometimes soldiers needs to die - but only the worst possible leaders makes peace with that fact.

 

But it isn't loss of the dreadnaught or their men that bothers them, it's that they lost these because you had the Chargers abandon their position, thus allowing the Venatori to destroy the dreadnaught and Qunari soldiers.

 

In other words, if the Venatori had showed up in unexpected numbers and kept attacking the dreadnaught even while you and the Chargers faithfully defended your positions, and it just so happened that the Venatori got enough shots in to destroy the dreadnaught, then the Qunari would have lost their ship and men, but it wouldn't have been your fault. In that case the Qunari would have agreed to the alliance.

 

The point is that they died because you abandoned your role.
 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Dai Grepher:  Pretty sure I didn't have a Venatori spy network in my Skyhold. 

You should ask your Qunari friends exactly who's side they're on... you had a spy network in Skyhold AND Denerim got burned down by Venatori?  Sounds shady.

 

And they died because of their horrible intel... supplied by, their spy network.

 

They should have known there were a lot more Venatori than were expected... but they didn't, and they wanted the Inquisition to pay that tab for performing a job that ONLY helps them?  I'm not that kind of ******. 

[zambingo]

How does recruiting the Warden recuiting one Qunari soldier or Hawke working with a group of their refugees equate to an alliance between nations?

Not semantics at all.

You are disregarding the nature of the Qunari, that's why it's a semantic argument. You'd be right if this was about other people, just not for the Qun. The Qunari only do according to their belief system.

Also the Inquisition isn't a nation, but by the end of the game perhaps that is also a semantic argument. ;-)

[TheKomandorShepard]

Your first problem was telling Leliana your people are not expendable.

 

If you threw Inquisition soldiers/agents at War Table objectives where they risked their lives (never mind any of them dying and the Inquisitor not losing a wink of sleep over it), that is hypocrisy enough.

Well to be honest i don't see how it is hypocrisy using them in war table missions unless war table misssion consist of sending or leaving one of your people on certain death thus deeming such person expendable.

[zambingo]

There are distinct differences between losses during combat, tactical withdrawls and missions which demand success /or death.

I believe there is one war table mission where the Quizzy can be hypocritical in regards to statements made to Leliana. It involves on one hand a chantry sister and (I believe) some citizens helping injured soliders, all of whom will surely die without withdrawl, and on the other hand ignoring their plight to go after a group of Red Templars. If you go after the templars and you scolded Leliana you are acting inconsistently.

[Lazarillo]

 

In other words, if the Venatori had showed up in unexpected numbers and kept attacking the dreadnaught even while you and the Chargers faithfully defended your positions, and it just so happened that the Venatori got enough shots in to destroy the dreadnaught, then the Qunari would have lost their ship and men, but it wouldn't have been your fault. In that case the Qunari would have agreed to the alliance.

 

The point is that they died because you abandoned your role.
 

 

But the whole reason the Venatori showed up in unexpected numbers is because the Qunari didn't carry out their end of the bargain (to provide accurate intelligence) in the first place.  They died because they themselves didn't properly fulfill their role.

[myahele]

Can you prove that for certain?
 

 

It could be a bug or the fact that I didn't do his quest until late in the game, so I still had the support of the Qun. But I do know that I never received news that Denerim burned down.

 

I do remember having a War Table report in which the inquisition was able to weed out/ identify Ventari spies within Denerim

[SgtSteel91]

You can talk to Iron Bull about the alliance in Skyhold. In my play-through, he'll say it's going well and brings up how the Ben-Hassarath are keeping things in Orlais stable as their army recovers from the Civil War, help the Grey Wardens locate and fight Demons, and hamstring the Venatori and delay them from reaching the Arbor Wilds and helping Corypheus.

[Medhia_Nox]

@SgtSteel91:  And very likely, it's true - but that's more because Bioware might have taken the "both choices are right" stance instead of picking one of them as a worse option.

 

"I" wouldn't trust a newly indoctrinated Bull.  He's not my man anymore - he's a Qunari through and through... and he wouldn't bat an eye at lying.

 

I'd like it if somehow you could confirm if what he were saying is true (and, of course, chances are it would be for those who take the alliance because of the "everybody wins" storytelling Bioware sometimes does).

 

I would find it very disturbing that the Ben Hassrath are - from the sounds of that - swarming over Thedas.  It's the old British Imperial way of conquest - and I'd be quite wary of being the Inquisitor who opened the door and sanctioned such an influx of Qunari.

[zambingo]

The only sign that I have found that Iron Bull is unhappy reaffirming himself as Qunari is Cole's mind reading of Bull. Otherwise Bull is as Bull does. And in fairness Bull being unhappy about that could just be that it came down to that, not that he is unhapppy as a reaffirmed Qunari.

On the flipside the only moment Bull seems unhappy not being a Qunari is during the assassination* attempt on him. Pretty sure that's the scene where he really struggles with being the guy he was always sent to kill. But again in fairness that doesn't mean he's not happy not being a Qunari, just means he now understands the other side of the coin.

Either way, again, the Inquisitor and the Inquisition is unaffected by the choice. The story is 100% about Bull, the Alliance vs Chargers is just the vehicle to explore that path.

*Side Note: This assassination plot should raise eyebrows for players and the Quizzy btw. The Qunari said F this guy and poisoned him, only Bull's experience had him wiser to it. So the moment the Qun demands anything about the Quizzy, it's on... don't drink that tea anymore. Probably especially concerning if you rolled a Tal-Vashoth Mage, btw. lol

[Dai Grepher]

@Dai Grepher:  Pretty sure I didn't have a Venatori spy network in my Skyhold. 

You should ask your Qunari friends exactly who's side they're on... you had a spy network in Skyhold AND Denerim got burned down by Venatori?  Sounds shady.

 

And they died because of their horrible intel... supplied by, their spy network.

 

They should have known there were a lot more Venatori than were expected... but they didn't, and they wanted the Inquisition to pay that tab for performing a job that ONLY helps them?  I'm not that kind of ******. 

 

http://dragonage.wik...pies_in_Skyhold

 

My Qunari "friends" would say they're on everyone's side. But yes, there are spies in Skyhold whether you like it or not, whether the alliance is made or not. So better to have the alliance so you can clear the Venatori spies out of Skyhold at least, and take down the whole network at most. And yes, Venatori tried to burn Denerim down, as was confirmed by my agents as well as Ferelden officials. The quest's good ending states that some Venatori were taken prisoner.

 

Again, who split the Chargers up like that? Who gave them that location as their position to take and defend? The Iron Bull. Mistakes get made in espionage. It's part of that world. You can only know as much as possible, and there usually are surprises. It can't be helped sometimes. But if you take that quest, then you did agree to the situation, for good or ill. If you agree to it then you are committed to it. Period.

 

They didn't want anyone to die except the Venatori. It isn't their fault that the Chargers weren't up to it, or that the Venatori had greater numbers than expected. If Bull were really concerned about his men, he would have led them, and let Gatt stay with the Inquisitor's party.