287 réponses à ce sujet

[zambingo]

Another thought, re: Mage Quizzy

Tal-Vashoth or not a Mage Quizzy should have been given the chance to deal with Iron Bull's quest like Danny Glover's Murtaugh and South Africa in Lethal Weapon 2.

[KumoriYami]

"One day we shall return..." The dying Arishok's last words pretty much sums up what I think the Qunari will do eventually. In the long run, choosing the Chargers over an Alliance with the Qunari is less likely to have more negative repercussions (aside from the Iron Bull officially declared Tal-Valshoth). There have been no signs of the Qunari expressing the desire to not conquer/convert the south, so it's safer just to not have anything to do with the Qunari, especially if you are part of a large organization with influence since the Qunari wouldn't hesitate to attack an ally whom they've created an alliance with as soon as it suits them, and similarly to the Llomerryn Accord, the Qunari only keep to it because they had their own reasons.

• Alistair: So I suppose once I'm actually king I could end up in negotiations with the Qunari one day.
• Sten: My people do not negotiate.
• Alistair: What do you mean? They negotiated a peace treaty after the war, and as far as I know they've kept to its terms.
• Sten: They signed a piece of paper. But only because they knew that you believed in it.
• Alistair: And what is the difference between that and negotiating?
• Sten: They stopped fighting for their own reasons. And they will resume it again, one day. The agreement means nothing to them.
• Alistair: But I thought you said your people believed in honor.
• Sten: They do. The honor of the Qunari is what will bring our warships back to your shores.

The Qunari's plans are sort of alluded to if especially if DA:O's Sten became the Arishok. According the the World of Thedas Volume 2, when (and if) Sten is the new Arishok, some think that the war between the Qunari and Tevinter may finally have a victor, which reinforces how the Qunari will likely move against Tevinter (and the rest of Thedas for that matter) again.

 

In the short term though (and for the sake of the game), I think that allying with the Qunari is the more... sensible choice given the state of Thedas and Venatori and red Templars running around everywhere and causing all sorts of problems during the time of Inquisition. Creating an alliance with the Qunari which allows you to get rid of Corypheus' spy network vastly outweighs the benefits from just one small mercenary company who you can technically have killed off after their war table missions are completed if you create the alliance later in the game.

[andy6915]

In the short term though (and for the sake of the game), I think that allying with the Qunari is the more... sensible choice given the state of Thedas and Venatori and red Templars running around everywhere and causing all sorts of problems during the time of Inquisition. Creating an alliance with the Qunari which allows you to get rid of Corypheus' spy network vastly outweighs the benefits from just one small mercenary company who you can technically have killed off after their war table missions are completed if you create the alliance later in the game.

 

Besides, the Inquisition could always call the alliance off as soon as the Corypheus and red lyrium and venatori issue is dealt with. Allies only until the main goal is done, then break it off completely. That's probably the absolute best combination of choices for getting use out of the qunari while not letting it be begging for a sword up the ass, and it shows wisdom in that you didn't let the alliance die premature but also didn't let it last long enough to be a potential liability.

[Urzon]

No, because the Qunari might also botch it, IF they even bother to investigate it.

If the Ben-Hassrath do investigate it on their own, they aren't bound to the limited number of options like the Inquisitor was. They have their own spy network and connections to fall back on to successfully do the investigation in Denerim.
 

The truth is, it is possible that Denerim burns if the alliance does not happen. You can't rule it out.

Of course I can. It wasn't apart of the game. So unless the writers admit to accidently leaving out that huge consequence for the Inquisitor's actions, and they fully intent to retcon it into canon in DA4, Denerim DID NOT burn if you saved Chargers.

[Patchwork]

Without an alliance in play why would the Qunari care if Denerim burned or if Ferelden's monarch is assassinated?

 

Their interest is protecting Qundar from red lyrium, the demons falling out of the rifts and Tevinter getting too powerful. Going after the Ventatori means killing them not saving Ferelden. Maybe Ferelden gets lucky and Tallis coincidently saves them as she's taking down the Ventartori but the only spy ring the Qunari will bother to destroy is the one working out of Tevinter. 

[Darkstarr11]

Without an alliance in play why would the Qunari care if Denerim burned or if Ferelden's monarch is assassinated?

 

Their interest is protecting Qundar from red lyrium, the demons falling out of the rifts and Tevinter getting too powerful. Going after the Ventatori means killing them not saving Ferelden. Maybe Ferelden gets lucky and Tallis coincidently saves them as she's taking down the Ventartori but the only spy ring the Qunari will bother to destroy is the one working out of Tevinter. 

 

If it IS Tallis from DA2, remember she was against innocents being harmed.  She went out of her way to avoid casualties.  This actually seems in line with how she would do things.  I think some of that would actually be less the Qunari, and more Tallis doing what she felt right, regardless of what her handlers thought.  As to Ferelden's king, probably only if Alistair was on the throne.  Remember, Sten (if the Arishok) was less than impressed with Anora.  OR if the Warden was on the throne having married Anora, he might care, but only as a courtesy.  

[Arisugawa]

If it IS Tallis from DA2, remember she was against innocents being harmed. She went out of her way to avoid casualties. This actually seems in line with how she would do things. I think some of that would actually be less the Qunari, and more Tallis doing what she felt right, regardless of what her handlers thought. As to Ferelden's king, probably only if Alistair was on the throne. Remember, Sten (if the Arishok) was less than impressed with Anora. OR if the Warden was on the throne having married Anora, he might care, but only as a courtesy.

But Tallis acting alone is a single agent. The Qunari assistance received during the post-Demands of the Qun missions is, if Tallis can believed, the full measure of the Ben-Hassrath currently outside of Par Vollen. Tallis isn't giving the Inquisition intelligence alone - the lion's share of the work done in those missions are Ben-Hassrath agents either having doors opened by Inquisition influence or being supported by Inquisition agents.

Innocents are being harmed in Thedas all the time.

It is extremely unlikely that even DA2 Tallis is in a position to do anything something the size of the Venatori without the support of the Ben-Hassrath, and they don't give their support to the Inquisition easily. And considering her title under the Qun is still Tallis, and she isn't the Ariqun (never mind what an interesting change of events for the Qun it would be to have a Viddathari as one of the three heads), I wouldn't bank on her having any more power or influence than she had in Mark of the Assassin.

[Cobra's_back]

The main goal was to help destroy Corypheus, and the Qunari do help you destroy his spy network. So that alone is reason enough for the alliance. But they also offer you info and ships.
 

 

 

Good point and alliances do not have to be forever. A temporary alliance makes sense for the situation at hand.

[Piktoonis]

As far as i read if i take alliance i get a few wartable missions, a lousy schematics and that's it. I went with Iron Bull and defeated cory myself, what's the point of the alliance if it is optional?

[The Baconer]

I always figure this alliance would be temporary at best. Assuming this alliance is ever brought up in a future game. Bioware will likely make it that. I am just curious what future impact this could have on anyone who romance Iron Bull? After everything is done does the romance end and he goes back to the Qun or does it continue if he is Tal-Vashoth?

 

I imagine the Qunari would have their reasons for wanting the romance to continue...

[Dai Grepher]

But the whole reason the Venatori showed up in unexpected numbers is because the Qunari didn't carry out their end of the bargain (to provide accurate intelligence) in the first place.  They died because they themselves didn't properly fulfill their role.

 

Mistakes happen. The Qunari may have only been able to see part of the Venatori force, or perhaps their intel was correct, and Bull simply overestimated his Chargers. In any case, once you agree to the mission, that's it, and you are just as responsible for accepting the intel as they were to supply it.

[Dai Grepher]

It could be a bug or the fact that I didn't do his quest until late in the game, so I still had the support of the Qun. But I do know that I never received news that Denerim burned down.

 

I do remember having a War Table report in which the inquisition was able to weed out/ identify Ventari spies within Denerim

 

Probably a bug then. The mission to find the spies follows the end of the fire ship mission.

 

Not receiving news isn't evidence. After all, Denerim can burn down and you can see this in your report, and yet nowhere in Skyhold is it written or said that Denerim burned. You'd think something like that would be a noteworthy topic.
 

[Dai Grepher]

@SgtSteel91:  And very likely, it's true - but that's more because Bioware might have taken the "both choices are right" stance instead of picking one of them as a worse option.

 

"I" wouldn't trust a newly indoctrinated Bull.  He's not my man anymore - he's a Qunari through and through... and he wouldn't bat an eye at lying.

 

I'd like it if somehow you could confirm if what he were saying is true (and, of course, chances are it would be for those who take the alliance because of the "everybody wins" storytelling Bioware sometimes does).

 

I would find it very disturbing that the Ben Hassrath are - from the sounds of that - swarming over Thedas.  It's the old British Imperial way of conquest - and I'd be quite wary of being the Inquisitor who opened the door and sanctioned such an influx of Qunari.

 

According to him, he never left the Qun.

 

The Inquisition never welcomes them in to sovereign lands. They are there already. The Inquisition just gets info from them on things that pertain to the Inquisition or stopping Corypheus.
 

[Dai Grepher]

If the Ben-Hassrath do investigate it on their own, they aren't bound to the limited number of options like the Inquisitor was. They have their own spy network and connections to fall back on to successfully do the investigation in Denerim.
 

Of course I can. It wasn't apart of the game. So unless the writers admit to accidently leaving out that huge consequence for the Inquisitor's actions, and they fully intent to retcon it into canon in DA4, Denerim DID NOT burn if you saved Chargers.

 

I know, but there are only so many options, and the best ones are already reflected in the quest line.

 

If they investigate at all, then their only two options are to do so secretly or openly. Doing it openly dooms the whole mission. Then once they get to South Reach, it depends if they kill all the Venatori or not, and also what route they take. Then it depends if they saved the shipping office from burning down or not. Then it depends on them getting word to a dreadnaught in time to get into position and blast the fire ship. That's all slightly possible but very unlikely.

 

It was part of the game. Just because you don't hear news of it if you chose a different quest line doesn't mean it did not happen. The whole event starts when a Venatori agent in Denerim decides to launch a fire attack against the monarch. So the only way that doesn't happen if you side with the Chargers (or refuse the Storm Coast mission) is if the Storm Coast mission is somehow linked to that particular Venatori.

 

Now the way I see it, the fire ship was a plan long in the making. So I don't see how the Storm Coast mission could possibly play into it. But let's examine the facts...

 

If you don't recall the Chargers, then the Venatori run up the hill and kill them, and the dreadnaught gets away. Then we know a Venatori starts the Denerim mission rolling.

 

If you do recall the Chargers, then the Venatori mages blow up the dreadnaught, and then supposedly the Venatori in Denerim does not start the Denerim mission rolling.

 

So is it that this Venatori was part of the Storm Coast mission himself? And is it that he just HAS to see a ship explode? That if the dreadnaught doesn't explode, well then he just has to go to Denerim and start a fire so that it can lead to a fire ship exploding in Denerim? That's a huge stretch, and yet it's the only real connection I can imagine here.

 

I mean, how does killing the Chargers inspire an attack on Denerim? And how does blowing up a dreadnaught dissuade an attack on Denerim?

[Dai Grepher]

Without an alliance in play why would the Qunari care if Denerim burned or if Ferelden's monarch is assassinated?

 

Their interest is protecting Qundar from red lyrium, the demons falling out of the rifts and Tevinter getting too powerful. Going after the Ventatori means killing them not saving Ferelden. Maybe Ferelden gets lucky and Tallis coincidently saves them as she's taking down the Ventartori but the only spy ring the Qunari will bother to destroy is the one working out of Tevinter. 

 

To kill Venatori and stop any plot they are trying to hatch. That means investigating what they're up to. And if Tallis finds out it's a fire ship headed for Denerim and the Qunari don't care, then that's just further evidence that Denerim will burn without the Inquisition there to secure the alliance.

 

And the Arishok might care about Denerim. He helped defend it once already, and one of the monarchs could be his ka'dan.

[Dabrikishaw]

Probably a bug then. The mission to find the spies follows the end of the fire ship mission.

 

Not receiving news isn't evidence. After all, Denerim can burn down and you can see this in your report, and yet nowhere in Skyhold is it written or said that Denerim burned. You'd think something like that would be a noteworthy topic.
 

There's no reason to assume Denerim burns down after you save the Chargers either.

[Urzon]

It was part of the game. Just because you don't hear news of it if you chose a different quest line doesn't mean it did not happen.

Yes it does. That's how storytelling works through any medium. Unless it's written down for a person to read, told to us directly, or shown to us, all other story elements are abstract. People may assume something might/did happen, or possibly theorize about future consequences, but that in no way makes them fact. Even if they are based on solid information. That can only happen if the writers tell us directly in some way that the event did in fact happen.

For the people that saved the Charged, the writers gave us no hint that half Denerim did or might burn to the ground. So it didn't happen. Unless the writers decide to either retcon in the future, or handwave a codex into existence that simply reads, "Oh, by the way, half of Denerim burned down while we were taking care of Cory...", that fact isn't going to change.

[Dai Grepher]

There's no reason to assume Denerim burns down after you save the Chargers either.

 

Yes there is. The only way YOU can definately save Denerim from burning down is if you ally with the Qunari, as they supply the intel about the Venatori assassin. So if you're not involved in investigating that occurrence, then there is a large chance that Denerim will burn. If you don't ally, then it all rests in the hands of the Ben-Hassrath agents, and the odds are against them.

[Dai Grepher]

Yes it does. That's how storytelling works through any medium. Unless it's written down for a person to read, told to us directly, or shown to us, all other story elements are abstract. People may assume something might/did happen, or possibly theorize about future consequences, but that in no way makes them fact. Even if they are based on solid information. That can only happen if the writers tell us directly in some way that the event did in fact happen.

For the people that saved the Charged, the writers gave us no hint that half Denerim did or might burn to the ground. So it didn't happen. Unless the writers decide to either retcon in the future, or handwave a codex into existence that simply reads, "Oh, by the way, half of Denerim burned down while we were taking care of Cory...", that fact isn't going to change.

 

But it is written down and shown to us, just not if we pick an alternate quest line. The assassination attempt's triggering is not based on the choice to save the Chargers or the dreadnaught. It exists independently of our choices. Therefore it should still take place even if we do not have the alliance. The difference is that it takes place without us. This is no different from the events at Redcliffe should we choose to seek the templars at Theirinfall. Based on what is implied by the advisors and what we see should we choose the mages, the Ferelden monarch(s) arrive to remove Alexius from the castle. Just because we don't see it happen in one path doesn't mean it didn't take place.

 

The hint was that we get a mission to save Denerim if we save the dreadnaught. The game clearly states that at some point in time after the Storm Coast mission, a Venatori assassin attempts to kill a Ferelden monarch with arson. That is what begins the fire ship event. It takes place either way. The difference is if you're involved or not, and that all depends if the Ben-Hassrath contact you about it.
 

[Urzon]

But it is written down and shown to us, just not if we pick an alternate quest line.

It is written down and shown to only players who did the alliance. You can't apply this type information to the playthrough of Inquisitors who saved the Chargers since it's outside metaknowledge of an alternative playthrough that isn't connected to theirs. An alternative playthrough which could possibly differ from ours when it comes to the outcome of future events.

You use the outcome of Redcliffe as an example of how this works, but it doesn't match up to what is happening with the Venatori plot. We get in-game knowledge of the outcome of Redcliffe by way of the advisors' hints in the same playthrough in which it happened. That differs greatly from the Venatori plot situation. You're relying on metaknowledge gained through an entirely different playthrough to back up the claim that Denerim did burn, but this isn't supported in-game since there isn't any additional notes or information that the burning actually happened.

At most, you can claim that the burning of Denerim is "possible", but "possible" doesn't mean it's true or a fact regarding that playthrough. As I said before, it can only get confirmed now as true if we get verification by the writers in some way. Until then, it will remain "possible".

[Gervaise]

I've been mulling this one over because up to now I've always saved the Chargers but I want to experience the opposite run through.   First time I played I didn't even get this quest because Bull sat on the subs bench nearly the whole time and I never got his approval up enough to trigger it.    Then I discovered that whilst many of my decisions might work against this, taking him on a dragon hunt was pretty much guaranteed to get things going.

 

The problem this time round is that I'm going with a Trevellyan who, for a specific personal backstory reason, is convinced he is the prophet of the Maker.   When it comes to the Qun, would he even agree to working with them?   Would he agree to taking on Iron Bull in the first place, honest and up front or not?

 

I'm inclining towards the view that he wouldn't regard it as a long term alliance but a short term arrangement specifically to counter Corypheus and the Venatori, since both he and the Qun want to see them out of the way as quickly as possible.   He also does not like Tevinter, which I suppose helps; the enemy of my enemy and all that.    I'll have to see if my view changes as events progress.

[Dabrikishaw]

Yes there is. The only way YOU can definately save Denerim from burning down is if you ally with the Qunari, as they supply the intel about the Venatori assassin. So if you're not involved in investigating that occurrence, then there is a large chance that Denerim will burn. If you don't ally, then it all rests in the hands of the Ben-Hassrath agents, and the odds are against them.

No there isn't. All this post does is prove my point. The most you been able to do is say It might have happened when you have nothing in-game to back it up.

 

There's nothing in-game that proves Denerim burns down after a player saves the chargers, so there's no reason for said player to assume that's going to happen. 

 

When Dragon Age 4 comes around and reveals that Denerim is no more after the Chargers are saved, then you can say your point has a basis. Until then, it stays what it is, hopeful speculation.

[Artemis_Entrari]

I don't know how important this quest is for future content in terms of aliiances with the qun but i suspect it's mostly irrelelvant. I think this quest is about letting Bull decide or come to terms with the fact that he has always been vasoth and not a follower of the qun. So you can either let Bull embrace the fact that he is not a qunari OR let Bull continue to lie to himself.

 

This conflict between Qun and non-qun will most likely, i guess, become  more relevant in a future dragon age title or maybe dlc for inquisition, but what do i know.

 

I think this is exactly it.  There likely aren't any future consequences for what you choose.  It won't affect any storyline going further.  It's about Iron Bull and how you help him decide on how he'll be going forward.

[Dai Grepher]

It is written down and shown to only players who did the alliance. You can't apply this type information to the playthrough of Inquisitors who saved the Chargers since it's outside metaknowledge of an alternative playthrough that isn't connected to theirs. An alternative playthrough which could possibly differ from ours when it comes to the outcome of future events.

You use the outcome of Redcliffe as an example of how this works, but it doesn't match up to what is happening with the Venatori plot. We get in-game knowledge of the outcome of Redcliffe by way of the advisors' hints in the same playthrough in which it happened. That differs greatly from the Venatori plot situation. You're relying on metaknowledge gained through an entirely different playthrough to back up the claim that Denerim did burn, but this isn't supported in-game since there isn't any additional notes or information that the burning actually happened.

At most, you can claim that the burning of Denerim is "possible", but "possible" doesn't mean it's true or a fact regarding that playthrough. As I said before, it can only get confirmed now as true if we get verification by the writers in some way. Until then, it will remain "possible".

 

It may not be connected, but it still takes place in the timeline of Thedas. And I'm not saying metagaming has anything to do with the Inquisitor's choice to protect the dreadnaught, just that it does for players.

 

I see what you're getting at, but I don't think the fact that it's metagaming matters. Whether we get hints from advisors about what's going to happen or whether we play a certain path and see what the result is and then reload, it's all the same. Both methods tell us what is going to happen in the near future. It's like Daniel in Cassandra's quest. We see that his fate is to be infected and eventually die or get turned. But what if you don't do Cassandra's quest? Well, it's logical to conclude that his fate is the same, since his fate is not tied to whether you accepted Cassandra's personal quest or not. Same case with the fire ship. It always gets launched no matter what you do. The only question is if the Ben-Hassrath can stop it without Inquisition help.

 

Again, not saying this is any kind of rationale for the Inquisitor, because metagaming never is, just that it's a good reason for the players to choose that path. It doesn't matter that it's a different playthrough. That path proves that the fire ship and all involved agents exist. Choosing to save the Chargers doesn't make the fire ship suddenly not exist. Choosing to save the dreadnaught doesn't make the fire ship appear from out of thin air. From here it is simple logical deduction that without Inquisition assistance, Denerim has at least a 75% chance of burning because of the fire ship.

 

I never wrote Denerim would definately burn if you save the Chargers, but rather that saving the dreadnaught leads to you getting involved in the assassination attempt in Denerim, which has a good chance of leading to the Inquisition and Qunari working together to successfully save Denerim from getting burned.

 

But this I will write. The Inquisition definately has Venatori spies in Skyhold. If you don't ally with the Qunari, then the spies remain, as the Ben-Hassrath were the only ones to spot them and were the only ones to make you aware of them.