630 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

Basically, what I'm saying is that if we're given an option to support a certain matter, we should also be given an option to disagree with it. After all, fair's fair, and all that, right? In Krem's case, we didn't get an option to support his transexuality, so we didn't need need an option to disagree with it. On the other hand, in Dorian's case we did get an option to support his decision, even getting to call it "brave" to abandon his country's traditions, yet we didn't get an option to tell him that he should've honored his family and country's ways and gone through with his marriage arrangement? That's bullshit, plain and simple.

 

It's somewhat ironic as well, since if the Inquisitor presides over the wedding in Val Royeaux, s/he can basically promote the very thing that Dorian was trying to avoid (which yields disapproval from Dorian).

[Dai Grepher]

And how were you forced to agree ? really ? watever you are smoking must be goddamn Good....

 

I never claimed I was. I wrote that Krem's case was handled well. The discussion is about future titles and future plots involving transgenderism.

[Steelcan]

I think that we should have options that are consistent with the setting of DA and our characters.

 

It would make very little sense to have characters who are sexist against women (though sexism against men I think could be an interesting angle that could be approached perhaps by a radical sect of Andrastians) or racist on the basis of skin color between human peoples. 

 

I think that anti-gay options are a risky proposition, we know that in the lore homosexuality is tolerated (at least among the nobility) assuming other standards are met, and I don't think we really need to talk down ignorant peasants about the virtues of tolerance and acceptance (I also have zero faith in BioWare's ability to handle such a scene well)

 

Now with all that said, I think there was an irritating lack of options surrounding pre-existing lore biases.  Beyond just the most superficial options, such as the opening dialogue with Threnn or the court approval mechanic, there is an utter lack of the racism that should be very present particularly against elves and qunari.

[AresKeith]

Now with all that said, I think there was an irritating lack of options surrounding pre-existing lore biases.  Beyond just the most superficial options, such as the opening dialogue with Threnn or the court approval mechanic, there is an utter lack of the racism that should be very present particularly against elves and qunari.

 

That I would possibly argue was the result of the other races being late additions 

[Dai Grepher]

Ah, you want to give players the option for the protagonist to behave as a bigot in game?

Nope that makes no sense to me at all.

 

And what would that look like in the dialogue tree?

 

'Actually Krem I'm going to refer to you as 'she' because' I'm an ass and I want to disregard your experience...'

'Yes Dorian, you should get yourself magically 'fixed' because my preferences of normality must be imposed on everyone else...'

 

BioWare are more than entitled to tell a range of stories.

If some players have irrational hang ups about some of those stories then that is their issue, not BioWare's.

And that is pretty much the stance that has been articulated by them.

 

No. I want to give them the option to disagree with transgenderism. I don't care to be outright rude or hateful about it, but some players might want that roleplay option. Heck, even I might want that option if the next custom character is a strict adherent to the Qun. That doesn't mean I agree with the sentiments however. I imagine that if I play as a Qunari I'll be doing a lot of things I personally disapprove of in real life.

 

So what if it doesn't make sense to you? Why is that a reason to oppose its implementation? Players have the option to commit murder in the game, but we all oppose that abhorrent act. Why is being "bigoted" (or the accurate word, "hatful") off limits but being homicidal is not off limits? Double standard?

 

Personally, for my Inquisitor, it would look like, "Listen Krem, I accept you and respect you as a person, but I disagree with what you're doing. I don't believe it is right. Objective, physical reality tells me only one thing, and I can't deny this irrefutable truth." Or in regard to The Iron Bull telling my Inquisitor, "I have horns. You shoot fire out of your ass. We're not exactly qualified to go around deciding what's normal." Paraphrased of course. But my Inquisitor's response would be, "I'm not deciding what's normal, I'm acknowledging what's fact and what's not." The Iron Bull then replies, "Yeah? Well why don't you go acknowledge it elsewhere? With all due respect... boss." The Iron Bull Disapproves.

 

Dorian's case is entirely different because it is based on where the writers want to take him. So obviously there won't be a choice to change him through blood magic, or the more logical method, tranquility. Personally, my Inquisitor would have supported Dorian's freedom to choose his own path, but he also would have pointed out the merits of parenthood and reminded Dorian of exactly what he was sacrificing in order to walk that path.

 

Their problem becomes BioWare's problem if enough fans disregard the series because of all these stories that leave no room for player choice. My point this whole time has only been, what's the harm in allowing the player to respond to these stories in a disagreeing manner? I mean, this is the case with every other storyline, from mage freedom to who should rule Orlais. Why are the issues of gender and sexuality off limits?

[daveliam]

Their problem becomes BioWare's problem if enough fans disregard the series because of all these stories that leave no room for player choice. My point this whole time has only been, what's the harm in allowing the player to respond to these stories in a disagreeing manner? I mean, this is the case with every other storyline, from mage freedom to who should rule Orlais. Why are the issues of gender and sexuality off limits?

 

I don't understand why this is becoming a circular argument.  You want to the ability to do this.  The devs have stated that they aren't in favor of this and aren't going to offer it.  You claim that this decisions limits your role-playing.  Their response is to accept it or don't buy the game.  That seems to be the end of the discussion.

 

You claim that it's for 'role-playing purposes only' and that you aren't looking to be rude.  People have explained why they don't consider this valid.

 

I'm not sure where else this conversation can go because neither side is interested in budging an inch. 

[CronoDragoon]

I've been hearing about BioWare "losing fans" over some trivial, subjective issue for quite some time now. Still hasn't come to pass. I doubt they are worried.

[Dai Grepher]

The bottom line is that every game limits choice in some capacity.  I've never seen a game ever that didn't limit your choices in some capacity, for obvious reasons.  This means that developers need to make decisions on how they are going to limit the players.  Those decisions are theirs to make. 

 

These developers have a clear stance that they don't allow you to RP a character who shows bigotry towards groups that exist in the real world (LGBT individuals, women, etc.).  Bigotry towards fictional groups (elves, mages, etc.) is possible.  Whether it would 'add to the experience' for some people or not is irrelevant because they've made their stance clear on this.  Additionally, for the vast majority, this request is either not important or something not wanted.  I do not see how adding this option in will affect sales in any significant way.

 

And, to be honest, I'm thoroughly unconvinced that the reason for asking for this is because of a 'more choices is always better' attitude, despite what people say.  I'm confident that there's a distinct undertone that belies the true root of this request. 

 

Limitations are not the issue, because the obvious reasons you infer are for constraints on time and resources. The issue here is in deliberately denying dialogue choices in scenarios that the player is given to play, all in the name of political correctness. You are given choices with mages. You are given choices with Orlais. You are given choices with elves. You are given choices with Fairbanks. You are given choices with spirits. You are given choices with Thom Rainier. So why shouldn't we be given choices when it comes to concepts of sexuality and gender?

 

You assume people want choice because they are secretly hatful, but this is nothing but your own prejudice of those players. You don't know the hearts of others, and I have already explained that having alternate choices is what gives YOUR choices meaning. If you only had the one option, even the one you wanted, then you didn't choose it. The option was chosen for you, and you had no say in the matter. But if you had other options, and chose only the one you wanted, THEN your choice has meaning.

 

Honestly, would you make a post about how awesome your Inquisitor was for saving the Chargers if saving them was the only option available to you? Of course not, because EVERY Inquisitor would have saved the Chargers in that case. The existence of the option to let them die is what gives the choice to save them meaning.

[Dai Grepher]

There is another problem as well, I understand why bioware wants to enlarge this but it just doesn't fit in a game that could take place in the medieval period, and I cant imagine that if the Chantry is an inspiration of the church would allow this because this would be considered TABU.
it just feels so out of place

I understand why Bioware want to do it and they should, but they need to look at this from another perspective, How was it back then and how was it viewed.

 

I originally had made that post longer, and mentioned medieval society in that post, but I decided to shorten it to something simple. I'm glad you brought it up. Having these storylines fit logically into the Dragon Age universe's settings is important. If it doesn't fit, then it doesn't make sense, and only creates bad storyline.

[raging_monkey]

Well it's logical to the writers they have final say in everything so why ask for something they won't do it's insanity (by some definition ) to ask again And again expecting a different result. I say buy it on release, pass on it, or buy it on discount

[SofaJockey]

Personally, for my Inquisitor, it would look like, "Listen Krem, I accept you and respect you as a person, but I disagree with what you're doing. I don't believe it is right. Objective physical reality tells me only one thing, and I can't deny this irrefutable truth."

 

No. That sentence makes no logical sense.

 

For your inquisitor to state:
"I disagree with what you're doing. I don't believe it is right. Objective physical reality tells me only one thing, and I can't deny this irrefutable truth."

is synonymous with:

"Listen Krem, I don't accept you and don't respect you as a person"

 

This is not the same as the act of killing, which players do not routinely engage in.

But hate is a reality many people encounter and it makes no sense for the protagonist to embrace such hate simply for the sake of role play.

 

That is why hateful choices are not in the game and

I cannot understand why anyone would argue for them,

unless they speak to hateful views held by the player.

 

Thedas is not incidentally a historical substitute, partly on account of the magic and dragons.

There is no basis to argue that hate was ok in medieval times so let's have some in Dragon Age.

 

Anyway, not much else I can say without repeating myself

of straying into more direct anglo saxon which would get me banned.

BioWare have made it crystal clear that it won't happen.

Good for them.

[Dieb]

Can they also say "some of my best friends are transgender" some time during their dismissal?

 

 

"Listen Krem, I accept you and respect you as a person, but I disagree with what you're doing. I don't believe it is right. Objective, physical reality tells me only one thing, and I can't deny this irrefutable truth."

 

That doesn't sound much like a character speaking, again.

[In Exile]

That I would possibly argue was the result of the other races being late additions 

 

It's actually a product of racism in DA never being as virulent as the form of racism that people think is in DA. Bioware has - despite including less technologically developed societies - adopted the social politics of the 1970s-1990s when it comes to race relations, with a plethora of supremacist attitudes. While elves are a downtrodden group that's visibly apart from humans, none of the actual features of IRL racism - and I'm including actual stereotypes - exist.  

[Dai Grepher]

No. That sentence makes no logical sense.

 

For your inquisitor to state:
"I disagree with what you're doing. I don't believe it is right. Objective physical reality tells me only one thing, and I can't deny this irrefutable truth."

is synonymous with:

"Listen Krem, I don't accept you and don't respect you as a person"

 

This is not the same as the act of killing, which players do not routinely engage in.

But hate is a reality many people encounter and it makes no sense for the protagonist to embrace such hate simply for the sake of role play.

 

That is why hateful choices are not in the game and

I cannot understand why anyone would argue for them,

unless they speak to hateful views held by the player.

 

Thedas is not incidentally a historical substitute, partly on account of the magic and dragons.

There is no basis to argue that hate was ok in medieval times so let's have some in Dragon Age.

 

Anyway, not much else I can say without repeating myself

of straying into more direct anglo saxon which would get me banned.

BioWare have made it crystal clear that it won't happen.

Good for them.

 

Then don't pick that option for your Inquisitor if it doesn't make logical sense to you.

 

Well that's your opinion. Others would call your perspective the disrespectful one.

 

And who says we routinely engage in any particular activity? And what does that have to do with being able to have an opinion of something in-game?

 

Yet the Inquisitor can embrace hatred in other scenarios, like against the Chantry, or spirits, or the Grey Wardens, or the mages, or even the Inquisition and its members. Yes... I do recall a Youtube video showing how we can punch Dorian and Solas. Hmmm.

 

You can't understand it because you aren't reading what we're posting. We explained our reasons. It seems to me you are blindly rejecting them as "hatred" simply because you disagree with them.

 

1. It's not hate. 2. The point is that the differing opinions exist in that world setting. So this should not be ignored in the name of real-world political correctness.

 

BioWare can say what it wants, but so can the fans. Minds can change, but so can employment positions. BioWare also made it "clear" that the Hero would not return in-game, and yet there is a new "Bring back the Hero" thread every week.

[Dai Grepher]

That doesn't sound much like a character speaking, again.

 

That's because text displayed on a screen doesn't make a sound.

[mjb203]

It's actually a product of racism in DA never being as virulent as the form of racism that people think is in DA. Bioware has - despite including less technologically developed societies - adopted the social politics of the 1970s-1990s when it comes to race relations, with a plethora of supremacist attitudes. While elves are a downtrodden group that's visibly apart from humans, none of the actual features of IRL racism - and I'm including actual stereotypes - exist.

I think you may want to go play the earlier games again. The city elf origin in DA:O in particular. The racism there is much worse than the 70's-90's era. Not to mention the whole Mage/Templar situation is very reminiscent of concentration camps in the 40's (or the Japanese internment camps in the U.S., at the best).

[In Exile]

I think you may want to go play the earlier games again. The city elf origin in DA:O in particular. The racism there is much worse than the 70's-90's era. Not to mention the whole Mage/Templar situation is very reminiscent of concentration camps in the 40's (or the Japanese internment camps in the U.S., at the best).

No, I don't. The racism in DA has one form: racial supremacism. Humans think elves are inferior in some general sense. It's pretty comparable to segregation, with less stereotypes. That's it. Everything else overlaps completely with class. The City Elf origin has racism only in the coincidental sense that Alienage elves are poor. Vaughn's abuse is predicated on his being a noble, not on his being a racist.

DA2 shows you institutional racism in the modern sense - the Kirkwall guard won't investigate crimes against elves. That's what happens *today*.

[MoonblaDAI]

<snip>

 

BioWare can say what it wants, but so can the fans. Minds can change, but so can employment positions. BioWare also made it "clear" that the Hero would not return in-game, and yet there is a new "Bring back the Hero" thread every week.

 

(Underline is mine) Like I wrote in another thread (now closed, but not because of my post specifically). Some people believe that the 60 bucks they paid for the game allows them treating the game producers like you treat a service, like your ISP for example. If you have problems with your Internet, you call the provider, and complain and it is their responsibility to fix it, it is essentially a technical issue. People need to realize that games are not services, they are the expression of the artistic vision of the writers, art designers, etc, and we as the "audience" have the option to enjoy them or walk away, that is exactly what Weekes is suggesting. What you are asking them to do is like trying to change the 9th Symphony from Beethoven to sound more like the Blue Danube from Johann Strauss. I love the first, and barely tolerate the second, so I simply avoid listening to it, don't threaten iTunes so I won't download the Blue Danube unless it sounds like Beethoven.

[mjb203]

No, I don't. The racism in DA has one form: racial supremacism. Humans think elves are inferior in some general sense. It's pretty comparable to segregation, with less stereotypes. That's it. Everything else overlaps completely with class. The City Elf origin has racism only in the coincidental sense that Alienage elves are poor. Vaughn's abuse is predicated on his being a noble, not on his being a racist.

DA2 shows you institutional racism in the modern sense - the Kirkwall guard won't investigate crimes against elves. That's what happens *today*.

Racism in the form of racial supremacism has been around since the dawn of time. You also never addressed the "racism" against mages. That IS a form that was around in the 30's and 40's in the form of internment camps, with Kirkwall being much more like a certain Axis power and the Ferelden one being more akin to the US camps for Japanese-Americans.

Edit: Vaughn's abuse of elves is also accurately reflected in Twelve Years a Slave. Still racism, as he didn't kidnap poor human commoners.

[In Exile]

Racism in the form of racial supremacism has been around since the dawn of time. You also never addressed the "racism" against mages. That IS a form that was around in the 30's and 40's in the form of internment camps, with Kirkwall being much more like a certain Axis power and the Ferelden one being more akin to the US camps for Japanese-Americans.

Edit: Vaughn's abuse of elves is also accurately reflected in Twelve Years a Slave. Still racism, as he didn't kidnap poor human commoners.

My apologies on the mages/templar; I don't necessarily disagree with you (though I think the identity politics are different because in Thedas people don't treat "mage" as a separate race).

I was focusing in the fantastical races generally because the post I responded to talked about racism potentially being reduced due to late implementation.

We don't actually have clear evidence on who Vaugh abused. From what I recall there was evidence he did the same to humans.

[Heimdall]

I don't have it in front of me, but I think WoT2 had an entry on Vaughn, by the sound of it he was a general sadist that liked to torture the servants in his own home growing up.  Elves were his favored targets though.

[mjb203]

My apologies on the mages/templar; I don't necessarily disagree with you (though I think the identity politics are different because in Thedas people don't treat "mage" as a separate race).

I was focusing in the fantastical races generally because the post I responded to talked about racism potentially being reduced due to late implementation.

We don't actually have clear evidence on who Vaugh abused. From what I recall there was evidence he did the same to humans.

I used the mages and Templars only because a parallel can be drawn. I don't think it's a necessity that they be a different race, as they are still separated due to their abilities. I don't think Vaughn did the same with humans, though it has been a while since I've played through that origin. I only used it because you were using the 70's-90's era as a reference for how DA deals with racism, and used it to point out that was a manner that was around at least as far back as the early 1800's and no doubt long before then.

[mjb203]

I don't have it in front of me, but I think WoT2 had an entry on Vaughn, by the sound of it he was a general sadist that liked to torture the servants in his own home growing up. Elves were his favored targets though.

Interesting, as this draws even more a parallel with Twelve Years a Slave, as Epps behaves in much the same way.

[In Exile]

I used the mages and Templars only because a parallel can be drawn. I don't think it's a necessity that they be a different race, as they are still separated due to their abilities. I don't think Vaughn did the same with humans, though it has been a while since I've played through that origin. I only used it because you were using the 70's-90's era as a reference for how DA deals with racism, and used it to point out that was a manner that was around at least as far back as the early 1800's and no doubt long before then.

That's a fair point on all fronts. Where I used the era as a reference point was more to illustrate the kind of racism that falls within popular consciousness.

This is not the "medieval pogrom in Ukraine" style of racism, and there's none of the very serious religious clash that we occasionally saw IRL. It's also actually a lot more segregated in a lot of ways that was true way back when (because race didn't quite work the way we viewed it today).

[Milana]

I've been hearing about BioWare "losing fans" over some trivial, subjective issue for quite some time now. Still hasn't come to pass. I doubt they are worried.

Before Inquisition i would have agreed with you.

 

But now, given the fact  that i didnt buy the dlc the minute it got released and i am not very excited for new ones, says that im losing my interest in the series.

 

Hope it wont be the same with Mass Effect.