630 réponses à ce sujet

[MoonblaDAI]

I agree that BioWare is not a service, but it is a producer of a product. People complain, praise, or make suggestions about all kinds of products all the time, and good producers care about what their customers think of their product. Weeks doesn't seem to care...<snip>

 

Do you realize that with the "trick" of the Keep "updates" what Bioware is doing is collecting hard data about their players' gaming behavior, their choices, for how long they play (and if they stop for how long) in what they spend more time, what type of missions they leave incomplete, etc. An infinite stream of data continuously flowing to their offices. They KNOW the truth about their players. The forumites are a tiny fraction of that player base. The point, as you are expecting to happen, that they would use this tiny fraction to steer their marketing decisions, is moot. Still BW pleasantly surprises me every new installment when they are willing to push the envelope and take risks, even with the trove of knowledge about their players that they have.

 

You're being watched

 

 

(source http://everything1s.tumblr.com/)

[The Loyal Nub]

This is all Obama's fault.

[raging_monkey]

This is all Obama's fault.

well his campaign slogan did involve "change"

[daveliam]

I already post an example. The transgender or homosexual character is presented, their story told, and then at the end the custom character can only agree with it, encourage it, or promote it. Nothing else. No option to object to it. No option to disagree. No option to not care about it and walk away.

 

If you need to be able to disagree with a stance in order to appreciate it, that's on you.  I understand the point of seeing both sides.  But in an interactive medium, this is kind of loss.  Almost everyone who is of the "ew trannies and gayz" mindset are going to choose to 'disagree' and then happily move on thinking that the game has legitimized their points.  Very, very few people are going to take a counter point to their own personal points and then reflect on that experience to reevaluate their own stance on issues like these.  It's just not going to happen.  So the whole, "we need it or everything is watered down" argument is pretty weak.  It would only matter if it forced you to see both sides equally and then take a stance.  Which would lead people to then complain about it 'being forced down their throats'. 

 

Ultimately, despite arguments to the other point, I don't see the benefit of this for anyone except those who want to have their own negative views on trans people legitimized and reinforced by the game. 

 

You do realize that transgendered individuals are strongly indicated to be that way because of their genetics (influencing brain structure and their perception of their sexual identity) which they cannot choose or control make it so. 

 

Agreed.  It's like saying, "I want to disagree with Vivienne about being black!"  or "I want to disagree with Blackwall for being a man!"

[Dai Grepher]

...about this particular issue, for god's sake.

 

They're producing artwork. If you don't like it, you can get your money back at most places, and never buy one again. That would cause about 50 less copies sold, and probably 50 more for CDPR, so everyone's happy one way or the other.

 

That's correct, and if it's only I who gets a refund, then it's insignificant. But what if this is the case with 20% of the fanbase? If you can't see the financial harm in that then you need to take an economics 101 course. They wouldn't need 100% of fans to abandon the series to see it end. They wouldn't even need 50%. All it would take to get the Dragon Age series dropped is just enough fans leaving to make any future investment from EA not worth it.
 

[Dai Grepher]

Almost everyone who is of the "ew trannies and gayz" mindset are going to choose to 'disagree' and then happily move on thinking that the game has legitimized their points. 

 

 

That's exactly WRONG! And this is where the numerous examples to homicide, theft, violence, infidelity, etc in the Dragon Age games come into the discussion. Do people who choose those things walk away thinking those behaviors are justified? No. So why do you apply this baseless claim to this issue?

[raging_monkey]

its the internet amonitinity give fools the "right" to spout madness

[The Loyal Nub]

Mark my words or this page. Someone... somewhere in a Mass Effect future thread (some idiot) is going to argue that there is a small list of objectively aesthetically acceptable traits  for an attractive female-only. And none of these traits would entail a black woman.

 

Remember those white Vivienne threads and how she would be improved if her skin was lighter, hair long and straight and silky, thin nose, small pouty lips, blue eyes, and then the OP would say. "I am black so it is cool for me to do this." 

 

And that article about why black people shouldn't be in medieval Europe or Thedas.

 

This makes me chuckle cause I was just responding to someone making that argument about Witcher 3 which had me wondering if my Medieval European ancestors had actually fought Harpies?!  Yes let's just ignore the Moors in Spain or the Mongols, Tatars, etc...

[Sah291]

However, in game groups are fair game, which is why you can disagree with Vivienne on mage rights and be openly racist against elves/humans as the other race.

 

People in the fandom do see elves, mages, chantry, templars, etc, as coded for real world social groups/institutions, though.

[SofaJockey]

That's correct, and if it's only I who gets a refund, then it's insignificant. But what if this is the case with 20% of the fanbase? If you can't see the financial harm in that then you need to take an economics 101 course. They wouldn't need 100% of fans to abandon the series to see it end. They wouldn't even need 50%. All it would take to get the Dragon Age series dropped is just enough fans leaving to make any future investment from EA not worth it.

 

There may be more than 20% of the population with such foolish and hateful views, but that doesn't mean it is right to pander to such idiocy.

Quality work attracts quality fans, so I can only hope that BioWare continue making great games that respect all sorts of people.

And if that means some people stop playing the games, that's fine. Hopefully they stop whining on the forums as well.

[Milana]

You only count if you're losing interest because of the issue we're debating. Is that actually the case, or do you have a problem with, say, gameplay, or the quest structures, or something like that?

I have a lot of complains with Inquisition, this very issue, the quest structures, the whole open world thing overshadowing the story and etc.

 

This game seemed boring too me and not very replayable(i have only like 3 playthroughs and its not a lot because with DAO and DA2 i had dozens), the main storyline was too short (though i liked Hawke quest and mages quest), while some areas were beautiful, the fetch quests irritated me, the companions besides Cass, Dorian and Cole didn't interest me at all.

 

I understand that im coming out as very bitter, i cant help it, I feel cheated by the only video games industry that i really enjoyed before. But even if some didnt like Inquisition, a lot of others did, so it seems like Dragon age series wont ever be the ones i used to love.

[DuskWanderer]

The reason I dislike the Krem thing is because it's presented wholly one-sided. I can understand stringing the plot along one way for plot reasons (you can't not be the Inquisitor because there'd be no game), how the Inq feels about Krem is completely irrelevant to the game at large. I have the sinking suspicion that in the next game, we won't get the ability to ignore the transgender thing (either by staying professionally or just changing the subject) and we'll be forced to sit through a scene with someone talking about how they never felt like a man and had to wear wigs and a blouse with hams stuffed in it was the only way they felt right (If you don't like what I said, listen to Krem's dialogue), and then I'll be forced to listen to a diatribe on how wonderful it is from the character I'm supposed to be controlling. And it would be completely irrelevant whether I liked it or not.

 

It's just like being forced to be Liara's best friend. If I'm threatening to throw some blue chick into a volcano and never talking to her afterwards, I am not going to be hugging her after two years. If she's that nuts and loves me anyway, that's on her, but it really shatters the sense of disbelief. It's even worse if I don't need to be her friend for the plot to work. That's just bad writing. I should not accept bad writing from BioWARE

[Steelcan]

I should not accept bad writing from BioWARE

boy have I got news for you

[daveliam]

That's correct, and if it's only I who gets a refund, then it's insignificant. But what if this is the case with 20% of the fanbase? If you can't see the financial harm in that then you need to take an economics 101 course. They wouldn't need 100% of fans to abandon the series to see it end. They wouldn't even need 50%. All it would take to get the Dragon Age series dropped is just enough fans leaving to make any future investment from EA not worth it.
 

 

This is the 'chicken little' approach that I've been talking about.  Because hypothetically there might be a game in the future that doesn't allow you to 'disagree with transgenderism' and it might cause people to boycott the game which if there's enough of them could lead to the demise of the franchise.  There are so many qualifiers in this, it's not really a realistic concern.  Especially because you have presented zero evidence that anyone outside of you will take this stance and certainly not a significant portion of the fanbase.

 

That's exactly WRONG! And this is where the numerous examples to homicide, theft, violence, infidelity, etc in the Dragon Age games come into the discussion. Do people who choose those things walk away thinking those behaviors are justified? No. So why do you apply this baseless claim to this issue?

 

Re-read what I said.  I didn't say that everyone who chooses that option is thinking this.  I'm saying that anyone who is inclined to think this way already would likely choose these options and happily move on feeling justified.  Those are two completely different things.  I'm not at all convinced that anyone who isn't already open to the possibility of 'supporting' trans people will have their minds changed because of the option to 'disagree with transgenderism' in the game.  Isn't that your argument?  That allowing 'disagreement' on transgenderism will open up dialogue and benefit the trans community?

 

People in the fandom do see elves, mages, chantry, templars, etc, as coded for real world social groups/institutions, though.

 

There is a significant difference between a group that could be interepreted as an analog to a real-world group and one that is actually a real-world group, though.  Especially when those real-world groups are still actively facing some pretty hefty oppression in most of the world.

[In Exile]

Agreed. And really, after the origin stories, there's not a whole lot more racism that occurs, at least on that scale, which I think makes it easy (or easier) to forget some of the harsher examples. But that's what discussions are for!

Very true. In any event I do appreciate your perspective.

[Steelcan]

Are we going to discount the examples of Orlesians hunting the Dalish for sport?  Or the Dalish killing humans in random acts of banditry noble resistance a different kind of racism then?

 

I don't think the racism in DA is meant to evoke a particular kind of racism but rather be a hodgepodge of all different manners.  There's good old fashioned "I'm better than you because ___" there's "You are different and thus bad" as well as "You make good servants and little else" and then there's lesser versions of it which are more akin to xenophobia such as Orlesian biases against Marchers and Dog lords

[bondari reloads.]

Here is a writer being entirely transparent about his thoughts on creating Krem. Rather clumsy of him if he intended to push the gay agenda that has allegedly taken over games.

He wrote dialogue that allowed to be ignorant about Krem's gender. I approved of that option in the same way I appreciate his honesty about his writing now. All but one line of dialogue to express aversion or, God forbid, disgust would have earned BW a host of problems, each of them deserved.

[Dieb]

That's correct, and if it's only I who gets a refund, then it's insignificant. But what if this is the case with 20% of the fanbase? If you can't see the financial harm in that then you need to take an economics 101 course. They wouldn't need 100% of fans to abandon the series to see it end. They wouldn't even need 50%. All it would take to get the Dragon Age series dropped is just enough fans leaving to make any future investment from EA not worth it.
 

 

What if I were paid in candy to teach giraffes how to breakdance?

 

 

Mark my words or this page. Someone... somewhere in a Mass Effect future thread (some idiot) is going to argue that there is a small list of objectively aesthetically acceptable traits  for an attractive female-only. And none of these traits would entail a black woman.

 

Remember those white Vivienne threads and how she would be improved if her skin was lighter, hair long and straight and silky, thin nose, small pouty lips, blue eyes, and then the OP would say. "I am black so it is cool for me to do this." 

 

And that article about why black people shouldn't be in medieval Europe or Thedas. There needs to be a dialogue option for me to tell Vivienne to go back to Africa...or Rivain /endsarcasm.

 

[KaiserShep]

That's because I'm not scared of anything. The alarm I raise is one of seeing player choice get flushed along with the series itself. Weeks seems poised to inject more storylines that push liberal causes and NOT give players the option to choose dialogue responses that define their custom characters as disagreeing with those causes, and by the same extension, delegitimize the story, the characters, and the causes that even the liberal players prefer.

 

I already post an example. The transgender or homosexual character is presented, their story told, and then at the end the custom character can only agree with it, encourage it, or promote it. Nothing else. No option to object to it. No option to disagree. No option to not care about it and walk away.

 

I suspect some might not like how expression of this alternate view would actually turn out in-game. More than likely, the PC would simply be refuted, and there'd be no real response there, because it's not as if the alternate viewpoint on the nature of Krem really has much to stand on in terms of a solid argument.

 

In any case, if it's any consolation, you can always, well….have the Chargers die and it would be your final insult to what Krem represents. XD

[SofaJockey]

David Gaider mentioned that Serendipity (DA2) had been used for humor, and it does seem that in media most transgender, lgb, cross-dressing indivduals are used as humor devices to laugh at, which perpetuates negativity towards these individuals both in media and in rl (you know how impressionable we all are by our media). Krem was a deviation to show BioWare isn't like that.

 

Whilst this may be a sideways thread lurch, it intrigued me that The Witcher 3's cross-dressing Tailor, Elihal, is also handled in a sensitive way.

Whilst Geralt is able to ask Elihal about clothing preferences,

Geralt is not imbued with the dialogue options to be rude or challenge Elihal's choices.

If I read it correctly, I also detected a sub-text about role play and playing different characters, which was interesting.

So well done CDPR for that.

 

[BansheeOwnage]

@Dai Grepher: Can you please spell Weekes' name correctly? Thanks.