630 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

Whilst this may be a sideways thread lurch, it intrigued me that The Witcher 3's cross-dressing Tailor, Elihal, is also handled in a sensitive way.

Whilst Geralt is able to ask Elihal about clothing preferences,

Geralt is not imbued with the dialogue options to be rude or challenge Elihal's choices.

If I read it correctly, I also detected a sub-text about role play and playing different characters, which was interesting.

So well done CDPR for that.

Geralt isn't exactly the most talkative person ever though, I'd be extremely disappointing if BioWare looked too closely at this

[In Exile]

Whilst this may be a sideways thread lurch, it intrigued me that The Witcher 3's cross-dressing Tailor, Elihal, is also handled in a sensitive way.
Whilst Geralt is able to ask Elihal about clothing preferences,
Geralt is not imbued with the dialogue options to be rude or challenge Elihal's choices.
If I read it correctly, I also detected a sub-text about role play and playing different characters, which was interesting.
So well done CDPR for that.

https://www.youtube....h?v=9oCPY-Sh_6E

Note that the character in TW3 is openly clear that he is not transgendered (he identifies as a man) and emphasised that he was heterosexual (he rebuffed the character hitting on him).

CDR handled the scene well and how the character owned his identity. Although Geralt does have what amounts to a "What the..." option.

[BansheeOwnage]

I already post an example. The transgender or homosexual character is presented, their story told, and then at the end the custom character can only agree with it, encourage it, or promote it. Nothing else. No option to object to it. No option to disagree. No option to not care about it and walk away.

Actually there is certainly the option to not care and move on. "What about the rest of your team?"

 

Here is a writer being entirely transparent about his thoughts on creating Krem. Rather clumsy of him if he intended to push the gay agenda that has allegedly taken over games.

Uh... we don't even know Krem's orientation, so how is he promoting some enigmatic "gay agenda" again?

[Steelcan]

I'm trying to think of a pun on gay agenda I just can't seem to plan it out

[Amirit]

If you need to be able to disagree with a stance in order to appreciate it, that's on you.  I understand the point of seeing both sides.  But in an interactive medium, this is kind of loss.  Almost everyone who is of the "ew trannies and gayz" mindset are going to choose to 'disagree' and then happily move on thinking that the game has legitimized their points.  Very, very few people are going to take a counter point to their own personal points and then reflect on that experience to reevaluate their own stance on issues like these.  It's just not going to happen.  So the whole, "we need it or everything is watered down" argument is pretty weak.  It would only matter if it forced you to see both sides equally and then take a stance.  Which would lead people to then complain about it 'being forced down their throats'. 

 

Ultimately, despite arguments to the other point, I don't see the benefit of this for anyone except those who want to have their own negative views on trans people legitimized and reinforced by the game. 

 

 

Agreed.  It's like saying, "I want to disagree with Vivienne about being black!"  or "I want to disagree with Blackwall for being a man!"

 

But it's not like this at all. And criteria for asking about choices is very simple - if subject is brought up and already discussed in-game, then it has to be a discussion, not one side view. Nobody cares in game about Vivienes skin color, nobody spend time to discuss how does it happen that she looks so different. Hence, no gamer is asking for the feature. However (!) (since you mentioned Vivien) - inability to disagree with Viviene about things she says irritates a lot of people to the degree where Viviene is the least favorite companion in the game. Mind you, irritates about perfectly lore subjects. 

 

Same here - the subject is brought up, there is a long dialog. Yet, all you can do is happily agree, nothing else. No options. 

Looks more like a lecture to me than a role-playing game.

[BabyPuncher]

I don't know but at some point someone started talking about pretty women vs. fat chicks. I got so confused. On that note...One is transgendered!

Yes, I imagine that sooner or later a game will come out with a very deliberately ultra feminine, attractive, alluring woman, carefully written to be as enticing as possible. A romance arc will play out, and only once the (male) player is throughly invested, she'll announce herself as transgender.

Cue the gleeful squeals of people ecstatically claiming the inevitable rage is 'proof' of how people are as attracted to transgenders as normal women. All tremendously stupid nonsense, of course.

Honestly, I wouldn't put it past BioWare to try and pull that kind of moronic stunt.

[Captain Wiseass]

Yes, I imagine that sooner or later a game will come out with a very deliberately ultra feminine, attractive, alluring woman, carefully written to be as enticing as possible. A romance arc will play out, and only once the (male) player is throughly invested, she'll announce herself as transgender.

And then I will laugh my balls off. (Figuratively speaking. Although who knows?)

[daveliam]

But it's not like this at all. And criteria for asking about choices is very simple - if subject is brought up and already discussed in-game, then it has to be a discussion, not one side view. Nobody cares in game about Vivienes skin color, nobody spend time to discuss how does it happen that she looks so different. Hence, no gamer is asking for the feature. However (!) (since you mentioned Vivien) - inability to disagree with Viviene about things she says irritates a lot of people to the degree where Viviene is the least favorite companion in the game. Mind you, irritates about perfectly lore subjects.

Same here - the subject is brought up, there is a long dialog. Yet, all you can do is happily agree, nothing else. No options.
Looks more like a lecture to me than a role-playing game.

Sorry, those points got confusing. I was saying that the concept of 'disagreeing with transgenderism' is like 'disagreeing with being black'. Both are determined biologically with no choice over it. There's really nothing to disagree about in my opinion.

[BabyPuncher]

Sorry, those points got confusing. I was saying that the concept of 'disagreeing with transgenderism' is like 'disagreeing with being black'. Both are determined biologically with no choice over it. There's really nothing to disagree about in my opinion.

So long as you're not trying to pretend one thing is another. The desire to be transgender may very well be determined biologically. That says utterly nothing about the validity of it.

After all, the desire to have sex with children might well be biologically determined as well.

By the way, it would be hilarious if it weren't so absolutely pathetic how quickly many feminists completely reverse their stance on the origin of gender once transgenderism comes into play. At first gender is an arbitrary set of norms that exists because it's been indoctrinated into people by society...then BOOM, it's a biological quality they were endowed with at birth!

Not saying that you personally believe the former, so I'm not calling you a hypocrite.

[AresKeith]

So that's what you are afraid. Don't worry about that! I'm sure the transgendered woman will also be a virgin, moral and good, and you can heroically sweep her off her feet before deflowering her,

 

He's afraid of lack of heroism

 

[Captain Wiseass]

So long as you're not trying to pretend one thing is another. The desire to be transgender may very well be determined biologically. That says utterly nothing about the validity of it.

After all, the desire to have sex with children might well be biologically determined as well.

By the way, it would be hilarious if it weren't so absolutely pathetic how quickly many feminists completely reverse their stance on the origin of gender once transgenderism comes into play. At first gender is an arbitrary set of norms that exists because it's been indoctrinated into people by society...then BOOM, it's a biological quality they were endowed with at birth!

Not saying that you personally believe the former, so I'm not calling you a hypocrite.

It's not really the feminists' fault you don't understand the difference between gender and sex.

[BabyPuncher]

It's not really the feminists' fault you don't understand the difference between gender and sex.

Mmm...no, I think that's you? Since I'm knowledgeable enough to know the origin of sex is an incontrovertible and easily observed fact, while the origin of gender is still very much in debate.

[Dieb]

If the only way I find out someone hasn't always been a woman, is by mentioning it, I'm going through with it.

 

If Olivia Wilde told me she was born a toaster, I'm still going through with it.

 

P.S.: Silly feminists again, ain't that right?

[daveliam]

Feminists claim gender ROLES are social constructs. Not gender identity.

Basically, whether you see yourself as male or female is biologically determined. What people of those genders can/should do in a society is socially constructed.

It's like the difference between if Brody Jenner refused to accept Caitlyn as a woman because she was born a man versus accepting her as a woman and then deciding that because she's a woman she should shut her yap and stay in the kitchen.

[AresKeith]

If the only way I find out someone hasn't always been a woman, is by mentioning it, I'm going through with it.

 

If Olivia Wilde told me she was born a toaster, I'm still going through with it.

 

Who wouldn't

[Shechinah]

And that article about why black people shouldn't be in medieval Europe or Thedas. There needs to be a dialogue option for me to tell Vivienne to go back to Africa...or Rivain /endsarcasm.

It may have been the same article but one of the ones that got a chuckle out of me was the article in which, I believe, the writer considered it insulting that there were colored people in the game because it meant Bioware were pandering to the black demographic which the author claimed to be a part of.

[BabyPuncher]

Feminists claim gender ROLES are social constructs. No gender identity.

Indeed, and it's a claim I give absolutely zero credit since such a concept of identity is literally designed to be completely meaningless and pointless. I spoke on this earlier, where I explained the mainstream accepted definition of "a woman is someone who identifies as a woman" literally says nothing.

[In Exile]

So long as you're not trying to pretend one thing is another. The desire to be transgender may very well be determined biologically. That says utterly nothing about the validity of it.

After all, the desire to have sex with children might well be biologically determined as well.

By the way, it would be hilarious if it weren't so absolutely pathetic how quickly many feminists completely reverse their stance on the origin of gender once transgenderism comes into play. At first gender is an arbitrary set of norms that exists because it's been indoctrinated into people by society...then BOOM, it's a biological quality they were endowed with at birth!

Not saying that you personally believe the former, so I'm not calling you a hypocrite.

I can't even wrap my head around how this could be a problem. Seeing as how absolutely no game will ever have a romance arc that culminated in your character being sexually assaulted, just what would be the issue here?

That's ignoring the nonsense point that somehow taking the position that a trait is biologically determined amounts to taking a moral position.

[Heimdall]

Mmm...no, I think that's you? Since I'm knowledgeable enough to know the origin of sex is an incontrovertible and easily observed fact, while the origin of gender is still very much in debate.

Not really, gender is a social construct.

[Amirit]

Sorry, those points got confusing. I was saying that the concept of 'disagreeing with transgenderism' is like 'disagreeing with being black'. Both are determined biologically with no choice over it. There's really nothing to disagree about in my opinion.

 

Then my apology for misreading. And - yes, you obviously can not disagree about gender. But my point stays - if you bring on subject about role and position of this gender, let my character discuss it, not just sit and listen. Or do not start discussion at all, like with Vivien's skin color. Let it be the simple fact given as it is. Lecturing about anything and allowing only one type reaction from PC is not a role-playing.

[In Exile]

Indeed, and it's a claim I give absolutely zero credit since such a concept of identity is literally designed to be completely meaningless and pointless. I spoke on this earlier, where I explained the mainstream accepted definition of "a woman is someone who identifies as a woman" literally says nothing.

Your inability to grasp set theory is not an argument against clear definitions. The definition of "woman" as "person who identifies as a woman" clearly demarcates women from non-women (the sets are clearly disjunctive) and provides an accessible litmus test for checking set membership. There's absolutely no sensible basis for a complaint from a definitional POV.

[bondari reloads.]

Uh... we don't even know Krem's orientation, so how is he promoting some enigmatic "gay agenda" again?

I suck at irony. I really do. I'll do better next time.

As for his orientation, would making him a LI in the sequel be too much to ask? I can picture Weekes just up and do it.